New Walbro 450 E85 bucket.

[SteveAZ]

Hey all,

Some of you are familiar with my Stage 1 Walbro 255 inline kit. I've been working on developing what I'm calling my Stage 2 kit and I'm now through the design phase and have been running it for a little while.

At this time it is not for sale and can not be purchased, this is purely to see who's interested in such an option as I go forward.

With that said, I'm going to keep it short and sweet.

This is a simple drop in replacement for your stock pump and hooks up exactly the same way. Here's a few pics, a video, specs., and a log

Specs: (As tested on my work bench)

Pump = Walbro F90000267 (many call it the Walbro 455)
Flows = 1.0 GPM (stock is .6 GPM)
Volts = 13.5
Amps = 21

Here are a couple screenshots of my logs. (not sure if I can link to Datazap here) FTR, I am running a stock HPFP system, 100% E85 (tested at E82.5), but my fuel pressure regulator is upgraded and so are my lines from my tank to the HPFP. This log was taken at approx. 1200" elevation and temps in the 60's.

The LPFP pressures:



The HPFP (rail) pressures:



To re-iterate, this is just a feeler, so if you'd like to see this option become available, please post up or if you have any questions...I'd like to hear those as well.

Also, if you're curious how you access this assembly in your car....

Thanks,
Steve

[135iam]

I'd buy one

[Garabins]

I would definitely buy one.

[edisapimp]

I'd buy one just because I think it's cool you made it.

[SteveAZ]

Originally Posted by edisapimp

I'd buy one just because I think it's cool you made it.

Thanks for the feedback you all...it definitely helps give me an idea what to expect.

[TZANIDO777]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

Thanks for the feedback you all...it definitely helps give me an idea what to expect.

Will this upgrade allows us to run 100% E85 with no other modifications to the fuel system, aside from tuning of course?

[SteveAZ]

Yes....There are people running 100% E85 on the Stage 1 kit that flows less than this kit.

However...running 100% E85 as you mentioned is conditional, highly tune specific, and can't be guaranteed. It depends on how well your HPFP is performing, your tuning, power you're making, where you're making it, and a few other variables.

So while I'd love to say..."yeah...just install this and go fill up"....it's just not that cut and dried.

Another variable...Say Joe on the East coast is getting his fuel at a place that is a true E90...while Jack on the West coast is getting his fuel at a place that is E70. They're both technically running 100% E85 in their minds but if Jack sends Joe his tune, Joe will have all kinds of issues. I see this a fair amount. So, it really does depend on just how on top of it you or your tuner are and a few other variables.

I see you're running a Cobb...are you doing your own tuning? If not, I'd highly recommend talking to PTF as I've worked with them on a few things.

Hope that makes sense as I get asked this a lot and is a great question.

Thanks,
Steve

[TZANIDO777]

Great info and thank you for the detailed response, I am planning on talking to PTF to get e-tuned as I am looking to run a high percentage of E85.

Not sure how true the E85 gas station nearest to me is but if it is possible with proper tuning on my end to run 100% E85 then you can count me in for a kit like this as well.

Another question, will this pump help with cold starts or just running E85 in general during the winter time?

I live in New York and the winters can get cold here. When I was running 50% E85 with the JB4 and FF wires I was running into problems during the winter as the car would not start. Would this pump solve that issue or this pump for a completely other aspect of the car and has nothing to do with that?

[SteveAZ]

I would not make any claims as to it resolving your starting issues when it's really cold.

I have a buddy in CO that was running 100% verified E85, but when it would get down in the teens or so, he'd go to E40 or so.

I do believe tuning has some to do with it, but given I don't live in a very cold climate, I can't play with that a lot. I see the low 30's and have no issues on E80+. When I see slightly long cranks (2-3 seconds) is when the car is hot and I've let it sit for 30min to a couple hours. This may be able to be tuned out as well, but I haven't really attempted it yet.

One thing I do as a matter of habit when I prepare to start the car is when I push the start button, I leave my foot off the brake and cycle it a couple times. This primes the fuel system and for "cold" starts...my car fires immediately. YMMV

[TZANIDO777]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

I would not make any claims as to it resolving your starting issues when it's really cold.

I have a buddy in CO that was running 100% verified E85, but when it would get down in the teens or so, he'd go to E40 or so.

I do believe tuning has some to do with it, but given I don't live in a very cold climate, I can't play with that a lot. I see the low 30's and have no issues on E80+. When I see slightly long cranks (2-3 seconds) is when the car is hot and I've let it sit for 30min to a couple hours. This may be able to be tuned out as well, but I haven't really attempted it yet.

One thing I do as a matter of habit when I prepare to start the car is when I push the start button, I leave my foot off the brake and cycle it a couple times. This primes the fuel system and for "cold" starts...my car fires immediately. YMMV

Haha sounds good, thank you for the advice, I will give it a try

[one30five]

id buy one. ive been researching how to improve getting fuel to the motor, escpecially running mods. Your option seems simple, and I think its bad - ass you made this and are doing research. I wish you good luck with your testing and development. Count me in! That being said, is your stage 1 still available? What are the benefits of your stage one over stock?

Thanks
PB

[froop]

Hi Steve, your kit definitely looks good and I'd consider it also if it gets released.

Can you please share some light on how your replacement 455 kit compares to your 255 inline stage 1 kit and the Vishnu and tundra 455 inline kits?

Is it better for running high concentrations of E85 to replace the OEM LPFP completely rather than run an inline? Is it more reliable? Is it easier to install? Etc.

Cheers!

[PeteA]

Yep would also buy one

[SteveAZ]

Originally Posted by one30five

id buy one. ive been researching how to improve getting fuel to the motor, escpecially running mods. Your option seems simple, and I think its bad - ass you made this and are doing research. I wish you good luck with your testing and development. Count me in! That being said, is your stage 1 still available? What are the benefits of your stage one over stock?

Thanks
PB

First of all, thanks!

To answer your questions.

Stage one has the potential to flow approximately 50% more fuel than stock. The 255 pump is a real work horse and is capable of incredible pressures.
When trying to push fuel through our choked up fuel system and keep the HPFP supplied, it does a very good job of keeping pressures up and delivering fuel...all at a bargain price. The stock LPFP really falls off as pressures rise and the demand for flow increases. By adding an inline pump, the head pressures of the stock pump are cut in half as the two pumps share the work load and the stock pump is then able to flow more fuel.

Yes, the Option one kits are still available...they aren't going anywhere because they will meet virtually everybody's needs at this time. There are very few exceptions and most of those are doing development of their own.

This stage 2 kit isn't meant as a replacement, it was designed with a few goals in mind.

1. First and foremost...RELIABILITY
2. Some people wanted a completely 100% PNP solution (Stage 1 comes close, but isn't completely PNP unless they ordered stage 3)
3. Some wanted a pump assembly that was E85 certified
4. Going forward as the big horsepower applications increase and the HPFP issues are resolved/circumvented I wanted to start providing solutions that will meet future demand.
5. This is a necessary step for stage 3

Originally Posted by froop

Hi Steve, your kit definitely looks good and I'd consider it also if it gets released.

Can you please share some light on how your replacement 455 kit compares to your 255 inline stage 1 kit and the Vishnu and tundra 455 inline kits?

Is it better for running high concentrations of E85 to replace the OEM LPFP completely rather than run an inline? Is it more reliable? Is it easier to install? Etc.

Cheers!

Good questions.

For your first question. I will actually have some data coming out shortly that will answer many of those questions. I've been gathering it and will be gathering the remaining data this week. I think it'll be easier to explain and for people to understand when I present it in graphs rather than me typing out long winded explanations. I'm sure you'd much rather see logs and graphs right?

As for your second question, I've been running and experimenting with various levels of E85 for over a year and a half now and been running 100% E85 for about the last year. I haven't had any pump failures but have had failed experiments However, in doing so I have had various equipment in and out of my car. So I can't say I ran "X" equipment for a year solid and it was fine on 100% E85. As for any of the Walbro pumps, I have heard of very few failures and most of those that thought they had failures, had installation failures, most commonly the fuel line they used. I can also say that I ran a stock LPFP feeding an inline pump (not a Walbro) for about a year...it was fine when I retired it and flowed about 90% capacity of a new one. I actually rebuilt that particular bucket for another prototype setup that I'm electing not to release at this time and may never release. We'll see.

One thing I'm seeing is these cars are getting older...so I'm seeing logs with "tired" LPFPs. Often times when people want to order a kit, if they are running low concentrations of E85 or in some cases not running any E85 at all, I'll have them send me a log so I can see what's going on. Some of those LPFPs were then shipped back to me for bench testing and I am indeed finding that they are under performing. I've seen anywhere from approximately 25% to almost a 50% reduction in flows.

As for the 450 bucket. Ultimately it's going to be the easiest to install...you're removing a stock bucket and basically replacing it with another "stock" bucket in that everything hooks up exactly the same.

Now, that said...the 450 pump is recommended for cars that are 500+ horsepower and you can figure (a rough guesstimate) cars that are 400+ horsepower on E60 or so due to the increased fueling demands. If you're running E93 and making 350-400 horsepower...I wouldn't recommend this pump...it's overkill and if your car is struggling to meet the fueling demands...your LPFP should just be replaced with a stock one. JMO

So, that was long winded enough and I'll end it there...hope I answered more questions than I created.

[SteveAZ]

Here's a couple logs for you all. These are from the 2nd beta test car. This car is running E50, stock turbos, is FBO -meth, and is a 6mt with an otherwise stock fuel system. Prior to this he was running my stage 1 fuel system with no issues but given how hard he is on the fuel system...I wanted him to test this so he let me upgrade him. Prior to coming to me for a solution and having stage 1 installed, I believe he had three 450 failures due to burst lines.

At the bottom of this post I've included a picture of one of his lines I discovered when installing the stage 1 for him. It had actually burst like this in 2 places but I didn't take a pic of the second location because we had dug at it to investigate and it was exaggerated by the time I took pics.

And the logs....

Here's a 3rd gear pull.



And this second one exhibits why I say he's so hard on the fuel system.

This was him F'n around with me in the car doing what basically starts out as a second gear rolling burnout and then slamming 3rd gear. You can see he routinely causes a pressure spike on the LPFP side that is in excess of 100psi and sometimes as high as 120psi.



and here is another screenshot of the same 2nd gear log that gives a better idea of what's going on.



Given the design of the new fitting...I've reduced the strain on the venturi system by further isolating it. In addition the fuel lines to the venturi I use are nylon and have a burst rating of 700+ psi. Beyond that, there are no additional fuel lines or connections introduced to the system.

And as promised, here is the picture of the burst line before coming to me and he started running my fuel systems.

[135iam]

do you have a graph of the fuel pressure on the 2nd beta car with the stage 1 upgrade for comparison?

I am a 2010 6mt FBO -meth currently running E35-E40 so very close to beta 2. And I likely drive just like he does

[SteveAZ]

Originally Posted by 135iam

do you have a graph of the fuel pressure on the 2nd beta car with the stage 1 upgrade for comparison?

I am a 2010 6mt FBO -meth currently running E35-E40 so very close to beta 2. And I likely drive just like he does

I don't have a graph of him shifting on stage 1 but the pressure spikes are the same. His stage 1 graphs are E40 and his stage 2 graphs are E50. I didn't have any of his stage 1 graphs on E50.

Here are graphs of stage 1 and stage 2 LPFP's and HPFP's. Both stages max out the stock HPFP. In the graphs for the HPFP, you see the same signature dip at tip in, pressures recover and the the DME tapers the pressures near the top end.

Stage 1 LPFP



Stage 1 HPFP



Stage 2 LPFP



Stage 2 HPFP

[one30five]

Steve
I sent you a PM but you answered my Qs in younmost recent post. I'd be overkilling w s2 and don't plan on bigger turbo. How to I get my hands on your stage 1 kit? I want to order today please

Thank you
Pb

[..]

Surprised this wasn't mentioned but, any idea of what this Stage 2 kit will cost?

I am currently running E60 on E85 flash with walbro 255. I would like to run 100% if possible so this looks rather tempting...

[SteveAZ]

If you have a 255 inline...unless you have big plans for further fuel system upgrades...I'd just stick with the 255 and spend my money on a pro tune. They'll be able to evaluate your cars abilities and limitations based on mods and a variety of variables to determine whether or not you can run 100% E85. I have a few people running a 100% E85 on stage 1. Even had an RB guy do it but cautioned him against it because the HPFP just couldn't keep up and rail pressures were getting too low. He didn't get any codes and the car ran like a raped ape...but again...I wouldn't suggest it.

[SteveAZ]

As promised more data....

For these tests my high pressure system was totally stock, they were run on the same tank of fuel (verified E80), and the logs are sequential (except one that I accidentally hit the enter button twice and started a log ). They were taken on two different nights, the first night was 71 degrees out and I was running the stage 2 (450) bucket. The second night was 66 degrees out and I was running the stage 1 kit (255 inline with stock bucket).

A note about my LPFP setup, I have the ability to run 4 different setups, all of which you'll see in these logs.
1. Intank (stage 1 or stage 2)
2. Intank + stage 3 in street mode
3. Intank + stage 3 in race mode
4. Intank + CP injection with any of the above 3 configurations (both CPI logs were taken with E. inline in SM)

Here is stage 1 in regards to the HPFP



Here is stage 2 in regards to the HPFP



As you can see there isn't much difference between stage 1 and stage 2 at this point with the current limitations.

Here is a graph of the corresponding LPFP pressures.

Stage 1 LPFP pressures



Stage 2 LPFP pressures



As you can see, stage 2 actually throws more fuel at it but the HPFP can't make use of it. Stage 1 throws more pressure at it...but again, the HPFP can't make use of it.

Then in my case, stage 2 and stage 3 throw the most fuel and pressure at it and while the HPFP can't make use of it, my CP injection can and I'm able to circumvent it.

Going forward for big setups and alternative fueling options (port or dual HPFP's) I really think stage 2 and 3 are going to be necessary or a variation there of. If limiting pressures for port injection to moderate levels such as 45psi...it's going to get a bit more complicated but fairly easy to do. It'll be interesting to see how PTF is fueling their systems.

Here are the links to the logs used for these examples.

Stage 1 w/CP injection

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/255-inli...og=0&data=1-11

Stage 1 w/inline in SM

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/255-inli...og=0&data=1-11

Stage 1 w/inline in RM

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/255-inli...og=0&data=1-11

Stage 1 only

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/255-inli...og=0&data=1-11

Stage 2 w/CP injection

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/450-test-1?log=0&data=1-11

Stage 2 w/inline in SM

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/450-test-2?log=0&data=1-11

Stage 2 w/inline in RM

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/450-test-3?log=0&data=1-11

Stage 2 only

http://datazap.me/u/steveaz/450-test-4?log=0&data=1-11

And here is the lab's test results for my "stage 3" pump.

http://imageshack.com/a/img836/4396/9w2d.jpg

Sorry, I realize this is a lot of boring data but may be of use to somebody besides me

[SteveAZ]

These get released tonight at 6pm Pacific time on a first come, first served basis and they'll begin shipping the week of May 19th.

Sorry, I can't post a link...you'll have to look them up on BB.

Thanks,
Steve