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      05-15-2015, 08:37 AM   #1
Fidiman
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Which tires for track?

Hi guys,


I would like to have your opinion and to know which tires you are using during your trackdays. I will have a set of OZ Ultraleggera in 18" and 8" large, ET40 exclusively for the track.

I have several ideas for the semislick rubbers ... But I cannot decide which one I will buy (in addition, I will have a 60€ reduction for a set of Michelin ...):
- Toyo R888 sizes avalaible: 225/40 and 245/40
- Toyo R888R size avalaible: 225/40
- Michelin PS Cup size avalaible: 225/40
- Michelin PS Cup 2 sizes avalaible: 235/40 and 245/40
- Yokohama AD08R sizes avalaible: 225/40 and 255/35
- Yokohama A048 size avalaible: 235/40

Note that I think I will run a square setup due to the sizes avalaible, my rims and the possibility of interverting the wheels. I will have (for the moment) 225hp and 470Nm of torque.

I would like to find the best bang for the bucks as possible! I'm a bit afraid the R888 will not last long... If you have any other solutions, ideas or if you could give me your opinion on a tire, I would be glad to hear it


Thanks in advance guys!


Edit: I cannot buy the Hankook RS3 as I live in France (no shop propose them anymore, I don't want to inport them from USA and in Germany, they are too expensive)


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Last edited by Fidiman; 05-15-2015 at 08:55 AM.
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      05-15-2015, 09:28 AM   #2
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Here are a few other options I've read good things about that list sizes available for you.

Streetable Track & Competition

Continental ContiForceContact (sizes are very limited)
235/40/18 Square
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....tiForceContact

Pirelli P Zero Corsa System (sizes are very limited)
245/35/18 Square
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....o+Corsa+System

Extreme Performance Summer

Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R
235/40/18 Square
255/35/18 Square

Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec
235/40/18 Square
255/35/18 Square

Competition Streetable-ish

Nitto NT01
235/40/18 Square


I was looking at the offset of the wheels you mentioned and they will work fine for the front but you might run into issues on the rear. The stock M Sport rear offset is ET52. By having a lower offset (i.e ET40) the wheel will be further out towards the edge of the fender. IF you haven't purchased these wheels yet I would try to get at least an ET45 for all four.
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      05-15-2015, 09:56 AM   #3
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I actually have some VMR VB3 (for street use) in 9.5" rear with a ET45. I don't have any rub for the moment. A friend of mine, the one I bought the OZ, said me I won't have any problems with the width of the tires (till 245 front).

I actually have some ST XTA coilovers and a bit camber for the track. I'm runing Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

I don't want to get Pirelli because their side wall are too soft. In addition, I'm looking for semi-slick tires, I don't care if I cannot go on the street with them (but all I mentionned are streetable).

I think, for a square configuration, I cannot gut further than 235.
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      05-15-2015, 10:17 AM   #4
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Bridgestone RE-71Rs.

You'll thank me later.
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      05-15-2015, 10:22 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31
Bridgestone RE-71Rs.

You'll thank me later.
You seem to have experience with this new tire. How is the wear compared to the PSS?
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      05-15-2015, 10:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Bridgestone RE-71Rs.

You'll thank me later.
Are they semi-slick tires? I thought they were "high performance for street"... I saw you bought them few days ago. How are they compared to the RS3?



Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
You seem to have experience with this new tire. How is the wear compared to the PSS?
PSS is a very good street tire (if not the best one) but not for the track: it will become softer and softer ...



Guys, I'm hesitating with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, I can have for 695 delivered too (because of the action on Michelin tires)... That's an awfull situation!
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      05-15-2015, 10:43 AM   #7
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Here are the testing results from TireRack for the Bridgestone RE-71R
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=198

As far as comparing the Pilot Super Sports to the RE-71R's they are two very different tires.

By category listed on TireRack the PSS falls into the Max Performance section and the RE-71R is in the Extreme Performance. The latter being excellent for HPDE and autocross but also streetable.

I've run PSS on track for the last two seasons and for me it's the balance of daily summer performance and ok for semi-track use.

If OP is looking for a semi-slick dedicated track tire maybe these aren't for him.
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      05-15-2015, 10:46 AM   #8
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The RE-71Rs can be indented with a finger nail into the rubber. They are soft.

Guys, the delta on street tires to Rcomps are getting thin, these tires act and behave like Rcomps, with full tread and can be ran down to the cords.

Try to get an Rcomp (especially the R888s) and not have them heat cycle out before you have a chance to run through the thread
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      05-15-2015, 10:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
The RE-71Rs can be indented with a finger nail into the rubber. They are soft.

Guys, the delta on street tires to Rcomps are getting thin, these tires act and behave like Rcomps, with full tread and can be ran down to the cords.

Try to get an Rcomp (especially the R888s) and not have them heat cycle out before you have a chance to run through the thread
You make an excellent point.
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      05-15-2015, 12:02 PM   #10
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Dont get DOT legal R-comp's unless you know what are you are getting into (Pilot Sport Cups, R888, NT01, etc). They will grip while they last and havent heat-cycled out. They get expensive as they will only last for a few track days. They will not give you much warning when they break traction.

Extreme Performance tires for mere mortals is all you need. They offer plenty of grip, last up to a full season, and typically work pretty well on the street.

Dunlop Direzza ZII StarSpecs, Yokoham AD08R, are all good choices with stiff sidewalls. Not sure about the sidewall of the Bridgestone RE71R, but the tread pattern looks remarkingly similar to Dunlop ZII-SS. A few track members have used them and love them.


RE-71R:



ZII-SS

Last edited by dcaron9999; 05-15-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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      05-15-2015, 12:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82MSport View Post
Here are the testing results from TireRack for the Bridgestone RE-71R
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=198

As far as comparing the Pilot Super Sports to the RE-71R's they are two very different tires.

By category listed on TireRack the PSS falls into the Max Performance section and the RE-71R is in the Extreme Performance. The latter being excellent for HPDE and autocross but also streetable.

I've run PSS on track for the last two seasons and for me it's the balance of daily summer performance and ok for semi-track use.

If OP is looking for a semi-slick dedicated track tire maybe these aren't for him.
You're right, I would like to get some semi-slick dedicated track tires as I won't run them on the street: I've my PSS for that



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
The RE-71Rs can be indented with a finger nail into the rubber. They are soft.

Guys, the delta on street tires to Rcomps are getting thin, these tires act and behave like Rcomps, with full tread and can be ran down to the cords.

Try to get an Rcomp (especially the R888s) and not have them heat cycle out before you have a chance to run through the thread
The only problem I see with these street tires is that they won't be as good as Rcomp tires or other semi-slick tires when they will have a hard tracking session. In addition, they could become softer and softer.

The drawback of the R888 is they are very hard to warm up. In addition they won't last very long ...



Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Dont get DOT legal R-comp's unless you know what are you are getting into (Pilot Sport Cups, R888, NT01, etc). They will grip while they last and havent heat-cycled out. They get expensive as they will only last for a few track days. They will not give you much warning when they break traction.

Extreme Performance tires for mere mortals is all you need. They offer plenty of grip, last up to a full season, and typically work pretty well on the street.

Dunlop Direzza ZII StarSpecs, Yokoham AD08R, are all good choices with stiff sidewalls. Not sure about the sidewall of the Bridgestone RE71R, but the tread pattern looks remarkingly similar to Dunlop ZII-SS. A few track members have used them and love them.
Why shouldn't I get legal Rcomp tires? I think if I chose them, I will get the Pilot Sport Cup or equivalent. Otherwise as you are explaining, I think, the AD08R are a good alternative. Only problem I see is that they are not as "extrem" as the A048 for example. In addition, There are two sizes avalaible: 225/40 and 255/40 or 255/35. If I go for a staggered setup, 255 won't fit rear (rubbing)...

A square setup could avoid the hypothetical understeering. As I did not test the coils on the track, I don't know if I have understeer or not. When I tested with the M Sport and Eibach springs, all the M3 bits, the silentblocs and the E93 M3 anti roll bars, I didn't have any...
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      05-15-2015, 12:52 PM   #12
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Fidiman - what tires were you previously running at the track? Are you wanting to go from a street tire like the PSS to a R-compound?

One of the major benefits of running a tire like the RE-71R or the ZII Star Spec is they hold up really well to multiple heat cycles and still have the ability of maintaining the same level of grip. I've never heard of tires actually getting softer as they wear or heat cycled.
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      05-15-2015, 12:58 PM   #13
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We had Dunlop ZI-SS then ZII-SS on our Chump car. (Races 7-25 hours long) Those tires could take a beating lap after lap after lap after lap, they seemed to last forever. Great grip as well. Apparently the RE-71Rs are even faster, and are the new hot ticket.
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      05-15-2015, 01:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman View Post
You're right, I would like to get some semi-slick dedicated track tires as I won't run them on the street: I've my PSS for that
\
The only problem I see with these street tires is that they won't be as good as Rcomp tires or other semi-slick tires when they will have a hard tracking session. In addition, they could become softer and softer.

The drawback of the R888 is they are very hard to warm up. In addition they won't last very long ...

Why shouldn't I get legal Rcomp tires? I think if I chose them, I will get the Pilot Sport Cup or equivalent. Otherwise as you are explaining, I think, the AD08R are a good alternative. Only problem I see is that they are not as "extrem" as the A048 for example. In addition, There are two sizes avalaible: 225/40 and 255/40 or 255/35. If I go for a staggered setup, 255 won't fit rear (rubbing)...

A square setup could avoid the hypothetical understeering. As I did not test the coils on the track, I don't know if I have understeer or not. When I tested with the M Sport and Eibach springs, all the M3 bits, the silentblocs and the E93 M3 anti roll bars, I didn't have any...
Ok, deal with me on this.

Stepping from PSS to R-Comps is not a good idea. For numerous reasons, but the main one is that the grip level and how the tire communicates at is not even comparable to the PSS.

PSS Tires will become noisy as you reach the limit of grip, then as you exceed it you'll slowly lose performance and you'll feel it. If you feel this you can back off the tire and it'll recover.

R-Comps, they do not communicate this noise and when they lose grip, they SNAP and lose all ability to grip. Once you exceed this there is no returning.

A heat cycled tire will become harder and harder. For example the RS3v2s are good for about 150 runs on an autox course. After that they do not maintain heat well and decrease performance.

I think marking is playing a gimick on your head. I'd almost put money on the RE-71Rs performing past PS2s or similar.
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      05-15-2015, 05:26 PM   #15
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I think you will be much better off with a R-Comp for track use. Extreme street tires are likely to wear too fast when they are overheated. When the tire is overheated the car will slide more and you increase the heat and wear rate even further.

However not all R-comps are created equal. Some aimed at racing events are intended to provide maximum performance over a limited number of heat cycles. So far I only used R888 R-comps. In cold conditions, I estimate the grip is already better than the Michelin PSS. The R888 aren't difficult to heat up. If your car weighed less than 1000kg, maybe you would think about warming up a bit longer. With R888 on the 135i it happens pretty quickly, just be aware if you warmed up both front and rear tires. When they are new, the deep tread makes them heat up easily within a single lap. I even used them in a mixed dry/damp conditions and the performance was very good without any trouble keeping them up to temperature. Now after 7 track days, the tread wears down to just past half way, the tire feels more direct, less squirmy and it can stand longer periods of track driving without overheating.
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      05-16-2015, 06:20 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Ok, deal with me on this.

Stepping from PSS to R-Comps is not a good idea. For numerous reasons, but the main one is that the grip level and how the tire communicates at is not even comparable to the PSS.

PSS Tires will become noisy as you reach the limit of grip, then as you exceed it you'll slowly lose performance and you'll feel it. If you feel this you can back off the tire and it'll recover.

R-Comps, they do not communicate this noise and when they lose grip, they SNAP and lose all ability to grip. Once you exceed this there is no returning.

A heat cycled tire will become harder and harder. For example the RS3v2s are good for about 150 runs on an autox course. After that they do not maintain heat well and decrease performance.

I think marking is playing a gimick on your head. I'd almost put money on the RE-71Rs performing past PS2s or similar.
I agree with you, the street tires will become noisier and noisier till their limit and you will feal it on the track. I've never driven with the Rcomp tires so I cannot answer on this point.

I know for example that the PS Cup will be very grippy and when they will arrive at their limit, they won't be progressive at all. I read a test last week with R888, A048, AD08R. The two Yokohama seemed to be progressive. So I think it really depends on the tire you're running.

Don't forget you are doing AutoX and I'm tracking: you will stop after one lap, I will typically do several laps (during at least 15 minutes) before stopping. The tires I will be using will handle more efforts and will heat much more. That's why I need (I think) Rcomp tires.

Edit : any review of the Bridgestone compared to the RS3?



Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I think you will be much better off with a R-Comp for track use. Extreme street tires are likely to wear too fast when they are overheated. When the tire is overheated the car will slide more and you increase the heat and wear rate even further.

However not all R-comps are created equal. Some aimed at racing events are intended to provide maximum performance over a limited number of heat cycles. So far I only used R888 R-comps. In cold conditions, I estimate the grip is already better than the Michelin PSS. The R888 aren't difficult to heat up. If your car weighed less than 1000kg, maybe you would think about warming up a bit longer. With R888 on the 135i it happens pretty quickly, just be aware if you warmed up both front and rear tires. When they are new, the deep tread makes them heat up easily within a single lap. I even used them in a mixed dry/damp conditions and the performance was very good without any trouble keeping them up to temperature. Now after 7 track days, the tread wears down to just past half way, the tire feels more direct, less squirmy and it can stand longer periods of track driving without overheating.
Thanks for your review on the R888. Have you an idea of the number of kilometers you did with them? And an idea about the amount of kilometers you can do?

I'm interesting in these tires because of their price is quite cheap. But the Michelin are still in the fight because of the 60€ reduction I can get.
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      05-16-2015, 10:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Ok, deal with me on this.

Stepping from PSS to R-Comps is not a good idea. For numerous reasons, but the main one is that the grip level and how the tire communicates at is not even comparable to the PSS.

PSS Tires will become noisy as you reach the limit of grip, then as you exceed it you'll slowly lose performance and you'll feel it. If you feel this you can back off the tire and it'll recover.

R-Comps, they do not communicate this noise and when they lose grip, they SNAP and lose all ability to grip. Once you exceed this there is no returning.

A heat cycled tire will become harder and harder. For example the RS3v2s are good for about 150 runs on an autox course. After that they do not maintain heat well and decrease performance.

I think marking is playing a gimick on your head. I'd almost put money on the RE-71Rs performing past PS2s or similar.
I agree with you, the street tires will become noisier and noisier till their limit and you will feal it on the track. I've never driven with the Rcomp tires so I cannot answer on this point.

I know for example that the PS Cup will be very grippy and when they will arrive at their limit, they won't be progressive at all. I read a test last week with R888, A048, AD08R. The two Yokohama seemed to be progressive. So I think it really depends on the tire you're running.

Don't forget you are doing AutoX and I'm tracking: you will stop after one lap, I will typically do several laps (during at least 15 minutes) before stopping. The tires I will be using will handle more efforts and will heat much more. That's why I need (I think) Rcomp tires.

Edit : any review of the Bridgestone compared to the RS3?



Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I think you will be much better off with a R-Comp for track use. Extreme street tires are likely to wear too fast when they are overheated. When the tire is overheated the car will slide more and you increase the heat and wear rate even further.

However not all R-comps are created equal. Some aimed at racing events are intended to provide maximum performance over a limited number of heat cycles. So far I only used R888 R-comps. In cold conditions, I estimate the grip is already better than the Michelin PSS. The R888 aren't difficult to heat up. If your car weighed less than 1000kg, maybe you would think about warming up a bit longer. With R888 on the 135i it happens pretty quickly, just be aware if you warmed up both front and rear tires. When they are new, the deep tread makes them heat up easily within a single lap. I even used them in a mixed dry/damp conditions and the performance was very good without any trouble keeping them up to temperature. Now after 7 track days, the tread wears down to just past half way, the tire feels more direct, less squirmy and it can stand longer periods of track driving without overheating.
Thanks for your review on the R888. Have you an idea of the number of kilometers you did with them? And an idea about the amount of kilometers you can do?

I'm interesting in these tires because of their price is quite cheap. But the Michelin are still in the fight because of the 60€ reduction I can get.
I've been on the track with RS3s, they didn't fall apart and I didn't catch on fire.

You have to realize, autox is much harder on tires because of the constant slipping that's going on. You're not progressively loading the tire like at the track

There was a one-lap CTS-V that ran the RE-71R and had 4/32nds left at the end of everything
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      05-16-2015, 05:21 PM   #18
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I know Hankook RS3 are very good ! I wanted to buy them but as explained, it's impossible in France (and in Europe) anymore ...

So I'm a bit daunting for your review of the RE-71R

If I understood correctly, AutoX is like a sprint and tracking is like a marathon!
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      05-16-2015, 09:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman
I know Hankook RS3 are very good ! I wanted to buy them but as explained, it's impossible in France (and in Europe) anymore ...

So I'm a bit daunting for your review of the RE-71R

If I understood correctly, AutoX is like a sprint and tracking is like a marathon!
I'm just saying, high performance street tires won't wear away instantly like PSS or something less.

Auto cross involves a bunch of skidding and sliding on the tires. This is where wear truly occurs. At a track, you don't see this as much so you don't need to worry about wear rates as much as you're trying to contribute

I'll give my review of the Stones tomorrow. I'll be running them
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      05-17-2015, 07:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman View Post
Thanks for your review on the R888. Have you an idea of the number of kilometers you did with them? And an idea about the amount of kilometers you can do?
I prefer not to use the R888 for street driving. It feels quite firm on the road due to the difference in sidewalls. There is a LOT of noise from the R888, and it sounds a bit like a tractor tire. I use it to drive to one of the circuits that is 170km from home, but I'd rather not use it more than that.

If you want to use it on the road as well, maybe consider the Yokohama AD08. I haven't used it personally, but I've seen it on a nicely-tuned 135i that is more powerful than mine. Its a good tire that is worthy of track duty, but I feel that it will probably give up second or two to a R-comp.
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      05-17-2015, 11:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
I'm just saying, high performance street tires won't wear away instantly like PSS or something less.

Auto cross involves a bunch of skidding and sliding on the tires. This is where wear truly occurs. At a track, you don't see this as much so you don't need to worry about wear rates as much as you're trying to contribute

I'll give my review of the Stones tomorrow. I'll be running them
Yeah, you're probably right but I think they won't be as grippy as the semi-slick tires.

I'm waiting with impatience for your review Could interest me!



Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I prefer not to use the R888 for street driving. It feels quite firm on the road due to the difference in sidewalls. There is a LOT of noise from the R888, and it sounds a bit like a tractor tire. I use it to drive to one of the circuits that is 170km from home, but I'd rather not use it more than that.

If you want to use it on the road as well, maybe consider the Yokohama AD08. I haven't used it personally, but I've seen it on a nicely-tuned 135i that is more powerful than mine. Its a good tire that is worthy of track duty, but I feel that it will probably give up second or two to a R-comp.
As you, I won't use the track tires for the street driving: I won't be able to warm them up and they will wear like nothing... I know R888 are quite noisy.

Speaking about the AD08, any review of their R version? I mean AD08R?
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      05-17-2015, 12:03 PM   #22
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Since we are on the discussion RS3 & RE71R...

What would be your guys pick if doing HPDE's and maybe a few TT's here and there, this set of tires will be mainly for DE4 events, not driven daily.

Or is there a better tire for DE use?

Leaning for economy, favor more on higher heat cycles than grip. Where are RA1's when you need them
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