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05-02-2010, 11:48 AM | #67 | |
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Can you explain why the internet's most credible source, Scott26, says it is an M car? Why is BMW's M Boss talking about a //M offering below an M3? There is more evidences IMO that points to this being an M car than not IMO. We can go way back to the first snow pictures of the mules being spotted near M headquarters that Southlight posted. AFAIK, the iS Z4 and 3 series did not have any interaction with the M Division. Its only being offered in North America, right? |
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05-02-2010, 12:05 PM | #68 | |
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As I said, very much hope you're right. And everything I read points to the eventual introduction of a sub M3 M car. Price points are ascending rapidly (with weight and power)....I'm confident that power and weight increases will slow, but not sure costs will decline thus prices will continue their upward trajectory. Given the base prices of the e36 M3 at $39k, then the e46 at 48k and now the e92 at 58k, I see a pretty consistent pattern not justified by inflationary forces (ie. the cars are getting more expensive faster than the dollar is worth less). This, to me, means that the next M3 will be a mid 60 to 70k base car and there are plenty of M lovers willing to dish out cash but not able to hit that target hence a lower M model. I think Scott is right, and the leaders at M Gmbh are honest when they discuss a 1 series M - I just don't believe its going to be under this iteration of the 1 series variant. My biggest reason - M has always co-engineered the platform to ensure that the base model will be uber competent in the M guise. The folks at BMW hold this early stage development as a crucial driver for beating the likes of AMG and audi Sport b/c those folks build a car and then slap performance parts on as an afterthought. Audi recently amended that procedure and, IMO, took great strides in bridging the gap between the old S / M models to the most latest output. Quite simply, M didn't design or assist with the original 1 series chassis like they did with the 3 series and 5 series. I even saw video of the M guys working on the development team on the latest X5 and X6 - now we know why. I'm sure a 1 series (or similar offering) will come around - but my guess is that it will be a part of the completely refurbished 1 series due out in a few years. To your point about the roof panel – I was under the impression that the lack of a sunroof provided a lighter body and more rigidity. The pics look like the engineers put carbon fiber over the sunroof but avoided the rear portion of the roof – I believe this is to test a more rigid version b/c of the likihood that the is will be more track capable and present the most competent car….if they were going to carbon fiber the entire roof, wouldn’t they just do it? Why cut out a small piece unless its there to cover a gapping hole. Incorporate the lack of M paneling, M brand cues (quad exhausts, side gills, etc.), limited time, and the glaring performance problem and I think I still lean towards a 135is. I alluded to the performance issue in my prior post – you can’t sell a 1M for 10k less than an M3 and have it be an all around faster/better car. The 135 OE vs. the M OE is already a little close for comfort. No one will pay a 5 or 10k premium for a 1 m for marginal performance improvements – hence the conundrum – you have to make a 1 M significantly better than an already great 135, but not too good to take away from the M3. My guess, as mentioned earlier, is that you will see a greater dichotomy in the 1 series lineup in the next generation resulting in a great 1 M that outperforms its lower variant counterpart without infringing upon the M3s higher priced territory. |
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05-02-2010, 12:20 PM | #69 | |
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Well, you've made your points and I've made mine. You can find one scientist to promote one theory and another to disprove it. We shall know soon enough. |
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05-02-2010, 12:30 PM | #70 | |
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You just reminded me of a last point. Think of production timelines and costs....an M version is typically released 12 to 18 months after the non-M version. This is b/c the finance guys at BMW know the useful life of a model is 4 to 7 years. If we look at the e46 - the new 3 series was released in 2000 and the M3 followed in 2001. THe e92 came out in 2007 with the M in '08. The new 5 series just dropped as a '10 model and 2011 will offer the M5. This version of the 1 series has been out for 3 or 4 years, correct? Why introduce an M now and spend all that money engineering it for a 1 or 2 year production run? Be smart, release a slightly modded 135is to judge interest in an M 1 (not simply a poll but how many people are willing to pay up) and use that for amo during the next run to produce an M variant from inception. We've seen BMW do it before BUT we have never seen an M variant come out years after the release of the base platform and only have a 2 year production run....just doesn't make financial sense b/c the cost of engineering and retooling for the M car can't be recouped at a reasonable market-driven price point in that short of a timeline before the new model is released.... |
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05-02-2010, 12:42 PM | #71 | |
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Have you forgotten about the BMW Z4M roadster and coupe? It came out 4yrs after the Z4 roadster and only had a two model year run. Oh, I thought about the rest of your post as well. Scott26 said the M would be a send-off several times. It cant be a send-off if he was talking about the next gen. CarandDriver totally has the motor wrong but even they acknowledge what we see is likely an M car. http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...eries_m_-spied I doubt BMW's M division is working on an 1M 4yrs in advance. It would be stupid to do so when we've only seen hatchback mules. Scott even posted up teasers of the E82! I'm guessing it would not be too cost prohibitive since they would be using a lot of M3 components(brakes, LSD, etc). It would no doubt be a limited edition run. |
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05-02-2010, 12:52 PM | #72 | |
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Oh, and I never said this mule is the 1series M for the next gen - I'm saying its not the M for this gen b/c there will not be one. Its an IS man, I want it to be an M too, but it isn't so just relax and let it go. Last edited by auggiem3; 05-02-2010 at 01:06 PM.. |
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05-02-2010, 01:00 PM | #73 | |
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05-02-2010, 01:04 PM | #74 | |
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Enough Instead of continuing to argue about this with no possible solution on the near horizon, I'm going for a drive in my M car - the one they already built. Done. |
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05-02-2010, 01:09 PM | #75 | |
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05-02-2010, 01:10 PM | #76 | |
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Scratch done and replace with |
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05-02-2010, 03:00 PM | #77 |
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I can't wait to see this "M1" with all parts: 18" Style M 359, CF roof, power dome hood, CSL style trunk, specific side skurts, specific mirrors, side vents, 6-piston brakes, quad exhaust, maybe new LED head and tail lights and a very good sound with carbon airbox.
I am already thinking of mods. -Akrapovic -KW V3 CS -Advan RS (they should pass under these wide fenders) Last edited by BMW269; 05-02-2010 at 03:24 PM.. |
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05-02-2010, 04:22 PM | #78 | |
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05-02-2010, 07:08 PM | #79 |
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I love the high level of concern with the quad exhaust - still not sure why people are so obsessed with some exhaust tips.
Also, can someone point me to the press release from BMW that states all M cars going forward will have mandatory quad exhausts? |
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05-02-2010, 07:30 PM | #80 |
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05-02-2010, 08:00 PM | #81 | |
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Also look carefully at the rear flares/fenders on the black and red cars. The black car looks more like a finished product whereas on the red car it looks like the wheel is swallowed whole by the fender - the offset is all wrong, it doesnt line up as well as on the black car. |
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05-02-2010, 08:06 PM | #82 | |
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Also, if you look at the 335is, you see BMW doing an upgrade with off-the-shelf parts from the BMW Performance line . . . no LSD, no bodywork other than bolt-ons. The 1 series mules we've been seeing are clearly more substantial than that, and in more than one shot show LSD's with cooling fins, a bigger M trademark than the quad exhausts so many are focusing on. Last edited by ///M///M Good; 05-02-2010 at 08:15 PM.. Reason: added more |
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05-02-2010, 09:02 PM | #84 |
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05-02-2010, 09:06 PM | #85 | |
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As I've said before, we shall wait and see - I hope its a 1 series M but I'm leaning the other way. Obviously the fellas at M Gmbh haven't been sticking to the rules lately so lets hope they veer from their historic (granted more recent last 10 years) behavior. |
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05-02-2010, 09:36 PM | #86 |
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Dammit you had to burst my bubble. I was going through the 1st three pages of this thinking I was the first one to notice this.,....
Anyways they look sweet!! Hopefully they use premium leather like that in the M3's.
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05-02-2010, 09:52 PM | #88 |
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I just figured since there has been all this debate back and forth about what an M car really should be (quad exhausts , engine types etc) I figurd this might be an interesting vid ... Just wanted to share ..
There is a portion dedicated to the M1 so I figured its relevant.. Not great quality and its dated but thought it was cool .. http://www.webridestv.com/videos/bmw-m-history-16012
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