[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by JazzEKline

What I would like to see in the US would be:

323
328
335
M

Where the power of the 323 does not exceeds that of a 325 and the power of the 328 does not exceed a 330. It makes perfect sense and I know it is possible.

Quite frankly, I agree and find this lineup to make the most sense (I had a huge post to this effect some weeks ago). It fits historical trends and it makes sense from a present day marketing standpoint (considering the positioning of BMW's most important competitors).

I could imagine the 323 with 180 hp, the 328 with 240 hp, and the 335 with 300 hp, all priced about $5000 apart ($27500 - $32500 - $37500). Note that with a ~$1500 price increase and 325-level standard equipment, the 328 equipped to the same spec as a 330 might only end up being $1000-1500 less!

Some important points to consider:

-When the E39 was split into three models, two of the models (530 and 540) remained at the same price point while the third model (525) was priced lower than the previous entry level car (528).

-It is unlikely that the US market will receive a sedan or five door hatch version of the 1 series. BMW will need a lower priced sedan to fit with this scheme; a new entry level E90 sedan makes perfect sense; while the E92/E93 (with 1 series equivalents) move upmarket a bit.

-The 5 series imposes an artificial price ceiling for the E90 sedan (but NOT the coupe). BMW will probably not price a regular production 3 series (i.e. non-M3) to cost as much as or more than the entry level 5 series in the US market. This means there's very little room currently to move the 3 series sedan line upmarket. Introducing the 335i above the 330i would practically force BMW to move the 330i and 325i downmarket a bit to reduce crowding.

[JackMac]

akhbhaat,

Thanks for reminding folks with the reality check. I was one of those MY00 328Ci buyers (one-year-only model designation), who was not thrilled about the bump to 3.0L the following next year.

We will know all of the answers soon enough... stay tuned.

[stressdoc]

I agree. I think a 323 would be an excellent marketing strategy, and would give the 328 a more upscale image. And you all know how great I think the 335 will be...

[JazzEKline]

Another good thing about the 323 in combo with a 328 and 335 is that it won't anger current 330 and 325 owners (as much). Beacuse they would still be above the 323 power level.

I'm really glad that I'm not the only peron that thinks this is possible

[JazzEKline]

akhbhaat you are saying everything that I think but don't have the words to say

I agree 100% with what you are saying

[EnI]

Just to remind you: N51 2.5L I6 SULEV II engine is in the work.
SOP: Sep 2006.

So, 323i with N51 is very likely in sedan / touring, yet not in a coupe & cabrio - since BMW need to push coupe & cabrio upmarket to make a space for upcoming 1er coupe & cabrio.

I could imagine several configurations possible:
325i/335i (+ 335si)
328i/335i (+ 335si)
325i/330i/335i
323i/328i/335i

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by GregA

Just to remind you: N51 2.5L I6 SULEV II engine is in the work.
SOP: Sep 2006.

So, 323i with N51 is very likely in sedan / touring, yet not in a coupe & cabrio - since BMW need to push coupe & cabrio upmarket to make a space for upcoming 1er coupe & cabrio.

I could imagine several configurations possible:
325i/335i (+ 335si)
328i/335i (+ 335si)
325i/330i/335i
323i/328i/335i

Are you thinking the coupe would only come in two variants & the sedan expands to three models? Such as 323/328/335 sedans and 328/335 coupes.

[EnI]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

Are you thinking the coupe would only come in two variants & the sedan expands to three models? Such as 323/328/335 sedans and 328/335 coupes.

Could be. I do not know. Yet.

But it makes sense since there will be a model below 3er Coupe & Cabrio - the 1er Coupe & cabrio, yet no model below 3er sedan / touring.

Like I said: there are many variants possible. BMW NA just have to do some calculations and make a decision what line to have in US.

In Europe e.g. the 335(s)i will have a role of a "bridge" and it will be more of a niche performance car - like baby M3 or poor-man's-M3 (mind Audi S4) - since in Europe most 3er sold are diesels or low dispplacement I4 gasoline engines.

But US market is very different: 3er featuring I6 gasoline engines only .

[Paul@Austin]

A 323i with 180hp would crawl down the road! I hope this does not happen in the US. It would be a sad day when someone in a Ford F150 goes blowing by a BMW.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by Paul@Austin

A 323i with 180hp would crawl down the road! I hope this does not happen in the US. It would be a sad day when a person with a Ford F150 goes blowing by a BMW.

People are buying the IS250, aren't they? The IS250 is a true dog by today's standards; even slower than my old 5 speed E46 323i.

A new E90 323i should be right on par with the old E46 325/323, which is certainly fast enough for most buyers (though I'd wager that most buyers would still go for the 3 liter 328, much as the 530 generally outsells the 525). A combination of relatively low weight and aggressive gearing should help the car accelerate briskly at street legal speeds.

[stressdoc]

Price and fuel economy suggest a logical niche for the 323. Cripes, I'm driving a 171 hp E46 323 now, and it is a fantastic car, 0-60 in 6.9, 30+ mpg. Think of all the potential buyers that prioritize handling finesse over drag racing. What would you want your teenage driver to have, etc.

[finallybuying]

Originally Posted by hunter399

I think it is in the first part of March

March 2nd through 12th. See http://www.salon-auto.ch/en/

[JazzEKline]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

Are you thinking the coupe would only come in two variants & the sedan expands to three models? Such as 323/328/335 sedans and 328/335 coupes.

That makes sense to me. In a couple of years BMW would have the option of expaning the coupes and covertables down by including the 323 engine.

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

So, with the 1 series coming in as the new entry level line, but no sedan variant, BMW would almost have to introduce a cheaper 3er sedan to fill that gap. That car could be the 323i. Meanwhile, the 3er coupe will probably be moved upmarket.

Since the increasing volume of the 3 Series warrants a three-model line-up (excluding M), the only thing BMW has to do is bring in another model. They don't really have to rebadge anything if they don't want to. As far as a 323 is concerned in the U.S., the very fact that a 1 Series is coming is argument enough not to move the 3 downscale as, in fact, since the E90 has been introduced it has only moved upwards.

Also, the newer versions of the normally aspirated 2.5 liter & 3.0 liter engines with Direct Injection are likely to surface at around the same time as the "335". This would be the easiest time to revise all of the models' lineups.....and don't forget that the 5 Series will wind up with these engines as well, so I doubt that BMW will care about how any E60s are priced in accordance with any E90s because all prices will likely move in unison.

[stressdoc]

My guess is that the 525 E60 will be phased out in the USA market unless gas prices go back towards $3/gal.

My only remaining concern with the 323/328/335 is the continued discord between labels and reality in terms of engine size. Not much BMW can do about Lexus using the IS "350" label; calling a 3.0l bi-turbo a 335, a 2.5l a 323, and a 3.0l a 328 just exacerbates the confusion started by the 325 3.0l this year. Maybe just suck it up and call the new 2.5l a 325, and continue the 330 label with the new DI 3.0l. 325/330/330s or t(urbo) would be fine by me. I guess there may be a point in trying to minimize drawing attention to the turbo, given the responses of some listmembers here, so no point in sticking a big red "S" or script "turbo" (a la the 2002) on, hence the 335 label. Whatever, just get us the car in the NA market and call it whatever you want. Freude am fahren.

[BeemMeUp]

akhbhaat, You sure seem to know a lot about the US, especially since your live in Russia and work on a Russian submarine...
Just kind of curious is all.

[oilbelcher]

akhbhaat, agree mostly, except this part:

"-The 5 series imposes an artificial price ceiling for the E90 sedan (but NOT the coupe). BMW will probably not price a regular production 3 series (i.e. non-M3) to cost as much as or more than the entry level 5 series in the US market. This means there's very little room currently to move the 3 series sedan line upmarket. Introducing the 335i above the 330i would practically force BMW to move the 330i and 325i downmarket a bit to reduce crowding."

I think the 335 could violate the 525 price floor by a little, as no one shopping for a 525 would directly compare the 335, which is more of a specialty version. The 330 could be compared with the 525. Someone buying a 525 (not a 540!) has very different buying criteria than someone who is looking for the highest level of engine performance and sport-tuned suspension.

[stressdoc]

What are the figures on the sales of the 323/325/330 in Canada? Does Fred have those data?

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by BeemMeUp

akhbhaat, You sure seem to know a lot about the US, especially since your live in Russia and work on a Russian submarine...
Just kind of curious is all.

I'm not actually Russian - the "Russian submarine" tag is a sort of joke, given how Russian submarines have a reputation (however real or imagined) for dangerously poor reliability. I'm American, born in the US.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

My guess is that the 525 E60 will be phased out in the USA market unless gas prices go back towards $3/gal.

The 525 actually sells very well, almost as well as the 530 (and both far in excess of the 550). It has no advantage in fuel economy over the 530 anyway. I don't see it being phased out anytime soon.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by RichReg

Since the increasing volume of the 3 Series warrants a three-model line-up (excluding M), the only thing BMW has to do is bring in another model. They don't really have to rebadge anything if they don't want to. As far as a 323 is concerned in the U.S., the very fact that a 1 Series is coming is argument enough not to move the 3 downscale as, in fact, since the E90 has been introduced it has only moved upwards.

My point was that since there will probably be no 1 series sedan and the 5 series sits just north of it, there really isn't any room to move up market any further unless the entire 5 series line is revised and receives a significant price hike. However, without a 1 series sedan or five door hatch, there is room for a slightly downmarket sedan model of the E90.

The idea that the E90 has been moved upmarket over the E46 or E36 is a misconception - the increase in prices over the year is due to inflation and, more recently, a slight weakening of the US dollar which has had an effect since BMW's hedging ran out a couple years ago. The base price of my 323i in 2000 was $27,100 - in today's dollars, that's over $30,000. The 2000 328i would be right about $37,000 today. The cars have gotten slightly larger and have gained power, but this trend has gone about across the entire industry - and as you can see, prices haven't actually increased relative to the E90s predecessors. Even the Hyundai Sonata can be had with a 230 hp V6 these days.

[ashecnc]

Originally Posted by Paul@Austin

There have been a lot of roomers circulating on the 325 turning into the 328 and the 330 to 335 in September of this year. The last tread to mention the 328 is over a month old.

I was going to buy a 325 in the summer, but I made the mistake of test driving the 330. Now the 325 feels way under powered but I don’t want to drop $42K after options if the 328i comes out at the end of the summer (purportedly the same power as the 330 for $5K less).

Does anyone have any new news on the 328i??

I drove both, and LOVE my 325 the end.