06-19-2014, 05:31 AM | #1 |
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Response to Michelin Pilot Super Sports
I just had a full set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports fitted to my 1M after a long road trip and at ~22,500 miles
The tires are not broken in so I cannot comment on their performance but on my M roadster I did not like them nearly as much as the PS2s and when I nailed the accelerator in the coupé yesterday I got a flicker from the traction control light. I see lots of folks loving the PSS as a road tire, but so far in two applications I am underwhelmed by them. I'd be interested to hear other comments. |
06-19-2014, 10:33 AM | #2 |
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PSS have a smoother ride, grippier overall and infinitely better on wet than the PS2. On dry surface at least majority believes PS2 have better turn-in and I think they are also really good in braking, maybe even better than PSS. They have similar steering response on normal roads.
Being also cheaper and lighter plus arguably more tread life, they are a no brainer in almost all real world driving conditions for the 1M which has too much torque to handle at the rear. There is a significant rear traction difference between these two imo. However, they are not a track tire and you may need to find the good pressure with them (which may be different than PS2) in addition to break-in. They are really good after break-in and maybe for the first 10,000 km. stay at peak of their performance. When they start getting harder after 2 years even with little mileage they start loosing their mojo a bit.
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06-19-2014, 08:51 PM | #3 | |
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06-20-2014, 07:07 AM | #4 |
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The PSS seem to like a 37 psi when warmed up.
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06-20-2014, 09:38 AM | #5 |
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Like the post before me suggests what really counts is how long and how exactly you drive the car every time you take it out; as an average? This should give you an indication for where to start as cold pressures in order to reach a working warm pressure relatively quickly and stay around there too. Also do you always drive alone with no load?
I usually have a short commute and don't track the car, rarely a passenger in the car; I find myself comfortable if I keep the tires 34 front 32 rear, cold pressures. I think best is to try a few different pressures before deciding which suits your condition better.
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06-20-2014, 01:12 PM | #6 | |
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If you prize response, turn-in and feedback most of all the PSS will disappoint after the PS2. On the other hand in my experience break-away is much more progressive, dry grip is actually up, and wet grip is much better. Your traction control light flickering is I think a red-herring. At full depth the tread blocks on the PSS will squirm significantly, and the traction control will read this as longitudinal slip and step in. This occurs significantly before the tire has reached peak grip, however- try it with TC off in the same conditions and I think you'll find the tires don't actually spin up, and as the tires break in this will probably happen less. I drive with TC off, and much prefer the PSS mainly for the more progressive breakaway, but those who drive with TC on might differ. The best pro PS2 argument I've heard was Advevo (pro driver who has two 1Ms): He felt the PS2 was quicker at the 'ring than the PSS. My best explanation is that all the tread squirm overheated the PSS on that long lap, as I've consistently lapped quicker on PSS at shorter events and autocross. Like most things it will come down to personal preference in the end, but I'd try to understand what you do and don't like about them.
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06-21-2014, 12:34 AM | #7 | ||
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Thanks OP for raising a common topic, and also to the informative responses.
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06-21-2014, 12:17 PM | #8 | |
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Note lateral and longitudinal slip are different, and if you get really technical the amount of slip is speed dependent, as below: Tire construction and tread (and size) make a big difference to the actual slip of a particular tire. Sticky tires generally have a soft rubber compound, which is "springier" and thus deflects more- we call that deflection "slip". However a race slick usually has no tread and a stiff sidewall to counteract this, meaning the tire overall is less springy. Something like the PSS is a recipe for more slip: a fairly soft compound with smaller and taller tread blocks, plus a relatively soft sidewall for comfort. So it will deflect quite a bit. But a Pilot Sport Cup 2, with far wider and shallower tread blocks and a stiffer carcass/ sidewall construction, will "slip" much less and hence probably keep the TC light relatively quiet.
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06-23-2014, 10:34 AM | #9 |
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I doudt between the pss and the pss cup.i track a few times per year,and i only use My car fore fun,no daily drive!i have also a winterset.so most of the time i drive in dry conditions.can anyone give me a recommendation.has anyone already used the cup tires for the 1M???
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06-23-2014, 11:45 AM | #10 | |
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http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/mich...ot-sport-cup-2 I'm getting a set as soon as the proper sizes are released in the US. No problem driving this type of tire on the road as long as it's warm and reasonably dry.
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06-23-2014, 05:23 PM | #11 | |
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You are definitely going to find that you are swimming upstream on this one. |
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06-23-2014, 08:02 PM | #12 | |
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I think the Poster is just underwhelmed because all of the hype. Our GTI came with Potenza RE-050 and the turn in was quick and immediate but they were loud too. Once switched to Michelins, they also felt better all-around but again not the razor like turn-in like the Potenza but quieter and overall grip was better, just felt slightly softer. I hope that helps. |
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06-23-2014, 08:18 PM | #13 |
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Tire squirm isn't significant in today's technology.
IMO, the PSS is nothing other than a glorified street tire. Besides that they hold no value to them on autocross or track...unless you like wasting money. |
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06-24-2014, 12:07 PM | #14 |
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? Please expand. What do you think "tire squirm" is?
Neither autocross or track were mentioned anywhere in this thread. We're talking about street tires, so a glorified street tire seems just the ticket?
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06-24-2014, 04:28 PM | #15 | |
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I ran ZIIs on full tread and never had dreaded tire squirm. Anyways...everyone is talking about turn-in, g-forces, ultimate street tire grip, traction light coming on...so this implies you're all either driving stupid on the street or track and autocross is going to occur. Hankook RS3s, Dunlop ZIIs are street tires as well, and will run circles around PSS any day. It is hysterical how pathetic PSS tires really all, besides the people who drink the juice and think they are god like. |
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06-24-2014, 05:36 PM | #16 |
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@kgolf31 off topic but I will get back to you about the seat question.
We are talking about traction lights because with 1m it will easily spin tires in 1st,2nd and sometimes 3rd gear without acting a fool. I've had tire spin in 4th gear with worn ps2.
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06-24-2014, 06:02 PM | #17 | ||
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If the tread of a tire's tread doesn't squirm, why do you think manufacturers reduce tread depth as a tire gets sportier? A standard max performance street tire is generally molded between 10/32nds or more. Your Dunlops ZIIs drop this down to 8/32, and something sportier still like a Pilot Sport Cup 2 is down to 7/32. At the same time the tread blocks get larger, even if void area does not increase. Both of these are done to reduce tread block squirm. Rubber flexes, that's its job. Go outside and press sideways on your tire's tread with your thumb and you'll feel it deflect. Now consider that when cornering at max load nearly half of the car’s weight, over 1600 lbs loaded, is hanging sideways off of a small hand full of rubber tread blocks that are sometimes not much wider than they are tall: They are made of rubber, not steel. They deflect, contributing to the overall slip angle of the tire: The fact that you're not able to feel it happening doesn't mean it's not- in fact it's a significant contributor to a tire's slip angle and its relaxation length. I've got a set of Dunlop Sport Maxx Race tires- check out the shallow center groves with the 45 degree angle molded in to the tread blocks for support: Does this mean every tire needs to be shaved to prevent overheating or be its fastest? No. But but every tire does squirm, with many it's actually not that hard to notice under the right conditions, and it might even be part of the reason you don't like the PSS even if you don't know it. Quote:
http://www.tirerack.com/features/mot...astresults.jsp Same as it's done for the last three years in a row. For this type of overall test the tires you mention were well back. I've driven the tires you mention. I have RS-3s on a second set of rims now. You're entitled to your opinion that PSS are over-rated, but for an all-round street tire I'll disagree.
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06-24-2014, 06:28 PM | #18 |
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Pete, thanks for this short course in Tire 101. Though know some of this stuff in theory, your comments and data put things into perspective.
Let's see how hey do on an upcoming trip up the Oregon Coast. |
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06-24-2014, 08:01 PM | #19 | |
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One Lap of America is a specific event with limiting factors..like only carrying one spare/replacement tire. How about you tune into the Toledo ProSolo results after this weekend and see how many people are running on PSS tires. I can bet none. Everyone can show cases that prove their point. My point is, everyone in this thread is talking about turn-in...tire load...etc. To be talking about this for street use you must be driving like an asshat. All I know is that ZIIs (and RS3s) have much, much more ultimate grip than what a PSS can EVER offer. Since everyone is talking about pushing tires to the limit, it was a broad assumption that these tires would be better situated for their use. You can question all you want about my tire knowledge. But I well know what actually works on my car when pushed to the limit. I'm fairly sure not many people on the forum can say the same. |
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06-24-2014, 08:59 PM | #20 | |
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06-24-2014, 09:24 PM | #21 | |
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I was trying to prove a point, that you can provide any information to make the story favor your point of view. PS - Tirerack surveys are a rough comparable. It shows RE-11a tires ranked above ZIIs and AD08s above RS3s...that both are FAR from even being close to the performance of ZIIs and RS3s....As well, the PSS and ZII/RS3 are in different categories. Actually, I'd rank RS3s over all. Once again, the way you guys are discussing tires in this thread it was like you actually autocrossed or tracked the car...or you're all driving nuts on the street. This is why I chimed in about the ZIIs. All seem quite defensive about your tires. Is it because you enjoy spending outrageous money on tires? Anyways, this is a loosing battle. Have fun with PSS tires. |
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06-24-2014, 11:09 PM | #22 | |
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Tread block squirm is one component of tire deflection, and a critical one. Denying this suggests you could do a little less talking and a little more reading. You might start with some tire modeling articles:
Link Link Or the basics: "One of the reasons radial racing slicks are so effective is because they feature shallow tread depths and their contact patch acts as a single unit. However, any tread design that breaks up the contact patch into smaller elements or adds additional tread depth (required to enhance wet traction) will increase tread block squirm and reduce dry performance." Link Quote:
Yep, none of us know how to drive... Carry on.
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