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      03-25-2020, 02:25 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade_The_Public View Post
Maybe I should take a step back. My intention was not to mitigate the seriousness of the flu, but to highlight the actions taken and deem them frivolous, at best. I'm not saying Corona isn't real. I'm saying it is conflated and the actions taken are completely unnecessary. Crushing middle class America at the expense of a hand full of lives, relatively? Jacking up unemployment to a projected 20%? Taking on trillions of dollars of additional debt? How are you not seeing the risk/reward trade-off in this? Please cite sources where able bodied citizens have perished from this in droves and I'll listen. I'm sure you can only provide articles where the predisposed are falling fatally ill. Book it.

Seriously, nothing you can say will change my mind and nothing I can say will change yours. So, what's the point of all this? Similar to a Trump voter that can't be converted to a Hillary voter. It's the same fucking thing.

THEREFORE, I'm done posting to a crowd that can't understand the economic impact at the expense of a handful of lives. I'll even concede that is more potent than the flu, but at what cost?

Don't waste your time quoting. I will not respond to any additional posts. I'm not budging and neither are you. Agree to disagree.
Your assumption in this is incorrect, as well.
And your cavalier dismissal at the loss of human life is concerning.

Good luck to you in all things you do.
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      03-25-2020, 03:04 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Correct... the economy will make or break him... until about 2 weeks, I would have said his reelection is guaranteed... if the economy tanks; people will vote for anyone because he doesn't offer anything beyond that. The real problem is whether you are democrat or republican, the decisions made to salvage the economy should infuriate just about anyone.
He also has the abortion/judges issues for Republicans. Many will vote for him based on those two things alone.
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      03-25-2020, 03:31 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Correct... the economy will make or break him... until about 2 weeks, I would have said his reelection is guaranteed... if the economy tanks; people will vote for anyone because he doesn't offer anything beyond that. The real problem is whether you are democrat or republican, the decisions made to salvage the economy should infuriate just about anyone.
While the economy tanking will hurt him for sure, if he acted intelligently he could use this situation as a way to bolster his image.

The economy will go down no matter what. Even if everyone who had COVID-19 was healed immediately and there were no more cases, there are still losses as of today. How he handles this situation could improve or severely hurt his image.

It's like a new CEO taking over for a company that is in financial trouble. If the CEO acknowledges the financial trouble, takes action, and does his best to turn things around, he will gain more respect and trust from the employees that he is capable of tackling a crisis compared to someone who takes over, pretends everything is okay, and allows the company to fail. Trump's best course of action right now would be to unite the American people, keep us up to date on the status, and act on our plan of attack. Right now it seems our government (from both sides) is severely failing us.

Our state governor (who initially called himself the "cheerleader" of CT) has actually been quicker to act over anything the feds have done.
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      03-25-2020, 04:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Correct... the economy will make or break him... until about 2 weeks, I would have said his reelection is guaranteed... if the economy tanks; people will vote for anyone because he doesn't offer anything beyond that. The real problem is whether you are democrat or republican, the decisions made to salvage the economy should infuriate just about anyone.
Intelligent people will look at his overall performance and will discount the fact that he is a blowhard. Most people though are not smart enough to separate the man from his accomplishments.

And you have to be a fcking to think a man (Biden) with dementia can do a better job.

If the demented guy is elected his Chief of Staff may do a better job than trump. He will select a great team and get a number of people to prop up Biden to prevent him appearing like the bumbling fool he is.

So far there is no proof of that. His team is allowing to appear like a bumbling fool

So if you vote for Biden you are voting for an unknown "Chief of Staff"..might be good or might be bad.
Biden is older than Yoda... he should be put into an ALF and forced retirement... what I think could happen is more people coming and voting for someone like Crazy Bernie on the indy side... especially if they dislike the current response and handling of the economy. It kind of makes their stance stronger and stronger.
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      03-25-2020, 04:53 PM   #71
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Let's see if we can sort out NYC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade_The_Public View Post
Maybe I should ...
I'm wondering if it would help if we talk about a specific problem (e.g., NYC) to see what is happening and *may* happen going forward.

I'm going to quote data (at the listed [time stamps]) from Gov. Cuomo's news conference on March 24, 2020 - link here.

C19 Data:

Total number of C19 tests: 91,270 [55:05]
Total number positive for C19: 25,665 [55:16] - 28% of total tested
Total hospitalized: 3,234 [55:57] - 13% of positive for C19
Total ICU: 756 [55:57] - 23% of hospitalized

Current total capacity:

Hospital beds: 53,000 [33:47]
ICU beds: 3,000 [33:47]

Assuming that the current ratios hold, if the C19 positive count gets to 100,000 in NY, the state of NY will not have any more ICU beds. After that point, anyone who needs to be admitted into an ICU will be turned away - including those that need an ICU for a reason other than C19. At today's rate of infection, NY will get to 100,000 C19 positive individuals in 14 days. It will likely happen sooner because the rate is non-linear.

The problem is actually more acute -- 6 counties (NY, Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, and Orange) have a total of 24,713 individuals that are C19 positive. These 6 counties have 96% of the C19 positive individuals in NY -- I suspect that the 3,000 ICU beds listed above is for the whole state of NY. It will be a challenge to get C19 positive individuals that need ICU admission from these 6 counties to other parts of NY.

What do we do with people that need hospitalization or ICUs once our existing systems are saturated with C19 positive individuals? That is when other health issues become fatal.

This problem is not about just people who will die due to C19 -- a lot more people who would have otherwise lived are also going to die. That is what we are trying to avoid.

We can try to make some assumptions as to when the infection rate will turn over, but it is likely more than two weeks out for NYC. Even if it turns over in two weeks, we're still likely looking at a couple of weeks with no ICU capacity in a very densely populated area.

With the above example in hand, we should think about the possibility of repeating this scenario in other highly populated areas in the US: LA, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, DC, Miami, ...

The question re isolation/economics is really a question of what are we willing to do to avoid the tsunami of individuals that will need healthcare if we don't do everything in our power to slow the growth of C19 infections.

Per MKSixer (below), I see that 4,000 ICUs are being added in NY - see link.

Last edited by bayarea328xit; 03-25-2020 at 11:08 PM.. Reason: Added note
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      03-25-2020, 04:54 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea328xit View Post
I'm wondering if it would help if we talk about a specific problem (e.g., NYC) to see what is happening and *may* happen going forward.

I'm going to quote data (at the listed [time stamps]) from Gov. Cuomo's news conference on March 24, 2020 - link here.

C19 Data:

Total number of C19 tests: 91,270 [55:05]
Total number positive for C19: 25,665 [55:16] - 28% of total tested
Total hospitalized: 3,234 [55:57] - 13% of positive for C19
Total ICU: 756 [55:57] - 23% of hospitalized

Current total capacity:

Hospital beds: 53,000 [33:47]
ICU beds: 3,000 [33:47]

Assuming that the current ratios hold, if the C19 positive count gets to 100,000 in NY, the state of NY will not have any more ICU beds. After that point, anyone who needs to be admitted into an ICU will be turned away - including those that need an ICU for a reason other than C19. At today's rate of infection, NY will get to 100,000 C19 positive individuals in 14 days. It will likely happen sooner because the rate is non-linear.

The problem is actually more acute -- 6 counties (NY, Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, and Orange) have a total of 24,713 individuals that are C19 positive. These 6 counties have 96% of the C19 positive individuals in NY -- I suspect that the 3,000 ICU beds listed above is for the whole state of NY. It will be a challenge to get C19 positive individuals that need ICU admission from these 6 counties to other parts of NY.

What do we do with people that need hospitalization or ICUs once our existing systems are saturated with C19 positive individuals? That is when other health issues become fatal.

This problem is not about just people who will die due to C19 -- a lot more people who would have otherwise lived are also going to die. That is what we are trying to avoid.

We can try to make some assumptions as to when the infection rate will turn over, but it is likely more than two weeks out for NYC. Even if it turns over in two weeks, we're still likely looking at a couple of weeks with no ICU capacity in a very densely populated area.

With the above example in hand, we should think about the possibility of repeating this scenario in other highly populated areas in the US: LA, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, DC, Miami, ...

What are we willing to do to avoid the tsunami of individuals that need healthcare?
They have received an additional 4000 ICU beds in NYC.
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      03-25-2020, 05:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Fade_The_Public View Post
You, sir, are a straight up moron if you think this virus warrants a public sector shutdown. You'd think this forum breeds intelligence but in reality it harvests morons.

Not referring to anyone that understands this whole thing is ludicrous.


IM OUT
I'm always amazed at how quickly people on this board lose their composure.

I have a difference of opinion, it's not the end of the world.
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      03-25-2020, 05:00 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade_The_Public View Post
Splendid write up..

Now perhaps a write up on how heart disease has killed more Americans today than Corona will when the dust settles?

Get out of here with this pandemic bullshit.
It's the flu and only suffering are the pre-disposed.
Stop drinking the cool-aid. This is political/monetarily driven.
When did Heart Disease become contagious ?
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      03-25-2020, 05:03 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade_The_Public View Post
You, sir, are a straight up moron if you think this virus warrants a public sector shutdown. You'd think this forum breeds intelligence but in reality it harvests morons.

Not referring to anyone that understands this whole thing is ludicrous.


IM OUT
I'm reposting an earlier comment.

The problem is one of exponential growth. If you look at the way the virus has exploded in every other region the problem isn't that the vast majority have little or no symptoms it's the ones that require medical attention over burdening the system. The death will also come from people who don't have Covid but other urgent needs and those needs can't be met but to the overcrowding of the system. Here in Ontario they've been calling it "hallway medicine" for years. The system is almost always working at over 100%, an influx or a few thousand critical patients will crash the systems ability to treat most of them. The whole social distancing thing and isolation isn't to stop the spread of the virus but to slow it so that the medical system can deal with it.

I'll add this, 2 weeks isn't going to stop or slow the spread in any measurable way. I suspect this will have to go on for a few months, and the distancing will have to go on much much longer.
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      03-25-2020, 05:07 PM   #76
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I feel like every one on this board get so angry any more. The off topic almost needs to be shut down so friendliness can come back. Do any of you even talk about cars any more?
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      03-25-2020, 05:10 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Our03z4 View Post
I feel like every one on this board get so angry any more. The off topic almost needs to be shut down so friendliness can come back. Do any of you even talk about cars any more?
This is in the "Off-Topic" / "Politics/Religion" section, areas I would never go with most friends or family. I don't understand why there or here that has to be so much anger. Removing all the "you're a XXXX" would help....
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      03-25-2020, 05:23 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Our03z4 View Post
I feel like every one on this board get so angry any more. The off topic almost needs to be shut down so friendliness can come back. Do any of you even talk about cars any more?
I don't like it, but I understand it, and respect it to a point. I love that people are passionate about their views, and are willing to literally fight for them. But again, to a point. As long as at the end of the day we can agree to disagree.
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      03-25-2020, 05:45 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Correct... the economy will make or break him... until about 2 weeks, I would have said his reelection is guaranteed... if the economy tanks; people will vote for anyone because he doesn't offer anything beyond that. The real problem is whether you are democrat or republican, the decisions made to salvage the economy should infuriate just about anyone.
He also has the abortion/judges issues for Republicans. Many will vote for him based on those two things alone.
Perhaps the only reason
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      03-25-2020, 05:54 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Our03z4 View Post
I feel like every one on this board get so angry any more. The off topic almost needs to be shut down so friendliness can come back. Do any of you even talk about cars any more?
This is what irks me. You don't like what you hear, so you want to silence us. No one is forcing you to read in the OFF TOPIC section.
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      03-25-2020, 06:09 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I don't like it, but I understand it, and respect it to a point. I love that people are passionate about their views, and are willing to literally fight for them. But again, to a point. As long as at the end of the day we can agree to disagree.
The recent emotions make sense. We are all stressed, and life is different than what it was just a few weeks ago. We all also seem to have much more time to post crap.
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      03-25-2020, 06:36 PM   #82
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When did Heart Disease become contagious ?
Sitting next to someone in McDonalds is the only way I have heard of it occurring.

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      03-25-2020, 06:37 PM   #83
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The recent emotions make sense. We are all stressed, and life is different than what it was just a few weeks ago. We all also seem to have much more time to post crap.
How do you tell the difference between then and now?

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      03-25-2020, 10:24 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I quoted your post again. You asked if there was an economic value for human life. And I responded by that has been happening with health insurance. To which you responded above where health insurance covers medical/care costs.

It's apparent you don't understand how health insurance works. Who and how do you think insurance companies make a determination on what is covered and how much to pay? It's all based on some bean counter and actuarial making a determination. If you think the decisions are driven mainly by a medical call, you're sadly mistaken. There have been procedures which have been denied because it was deemed unnecessary by insurance even though doctors have stated it was medically necessary. When you're suffering from a major illness, you know full well about being denied for procedures which can save your life. Having had cancer and a heart condition, I have experienced this. An example is a specific MRI that only one medical facility in my area can do to take a close look at where my aorta originates from my heart. My vascular doctor wanted to get a closer look at that area as I'm in danger of having an aortic aneurysm. My insurance denied the scan saying the CT scan I had which was totally unrelated to this heart condition for my cancer checkup was sufficient. My doctor appealed and insurance again denied it. So per your comment, there was a price put on me about my life. Because the end result is that I can fall dead if that area for what ever reason bursts.

To summarize this and tie it back to your comment, yes, a price/economic value has been placed on human life and it's called health insurance. This is further reinforced by the fact these companies are for profit and you cannot tell me that does not weigh heavily on their coverage decisions.
I think youíre conflating medical costs to economic value. If Iím at home sick, how does health insurance cover my loss of productivity to the economy? Letís take a scenario: Letís say Iím a highly-skilled commodities trader for a fund and I typically make $1M a day in revenue for my trading firm. I get the flu and am too sick to work for 7 days, costing my firm $7M in revenue. Explain how health insurance covers my loss of productivity to the economy.
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      03-25-2020, 10:33 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by turboawd View Post
This is what irks me. You don't like what you hear, so you want to silence us. No one is forcing you to read in the OFF TOPIC section.
I see the good and bad in every ones posts, people are just getting unusually nasty lately. Even your reply to me... We should be stronger as a group right now to get through this as easily as possible. My point is that not many posts are being made about actual cars any more, we need more of that right now. There is no winner on the interwebs, people will stick to their guns till their fingers bleed. Pointless conversations honestly, even mine right now. I'm outta here...I know I know dont let the key board hit me in the butt.
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      03-25-2020, 10:39 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
I think youíre conflating medical costs to economic value. If Iím at home sick, how does health insurance cover my loss of productivity to the economy? Letís take a scenario: Letís say Iím a highly-skilled commodities trader for a fund and I typically make $1M a day in revenue for my trading firm. I get the flu and am too sick to work for 7 days, costing my firm $7M in revenue. Explain how health insurance covers my loss of productivity to the economy.
Your take is what a person's economic value is in contributing to the economy. I'm looking at it where a value is assigned to me as to what a health insurance company is willing to pay for specific claims based on tables/values set by some bean counter who is answering to share holder/profit pressures. This share holder/profit pressures are a direct result of how our economy is structured.

So as this topic was brought up due to the current health crisis and all the economic damage that is occurring, your original post asks if any of us would sacrifice our lives for the benefit of the economy. And I'm saying this has been happening for us with health insurance. Per what I said above and my personal example of being denied a specific MRI scan which my doctor deemed necessary, my health insurance company has assigned a value to me that states the potential risk of my death wasn't worth them spending the money to cover the scan. And you bet this unspent money for my scan rolls up to the bottom line for my health insurance to be applied on Wall Street.
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      03-26-2020, 10:29 AM   #87
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Sitting next to someone in McDonalds is the only way I have heard of it occurring.

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