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      12-20-2016, 05:22 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I was just adding the info so Justin knows that V20 was the first log I took and that the car has been running that tune for weeks. I Then flashed to PPK and did a bunch of pulls (305/340 in VD). Finally, I flashed back to V24 Stage 2+.

You'll see fuel trims were negative for the first set of pulls (V20). LTFT then learned from a positive ~3% down to .5%, essentially cutting fuel, due to flashing PPK. Then you see in the V24 logs fuel trims are adding fuel as the DME heads back toward that 3% LTFT trim.

The corrections in my logs are due to overshooting target boost/load. When you overshoot target Load the DME responds by cutting throttle and retarding timing.

You are working with Wedge, so I'm sure you're following how he's switching towards a method of tuning close to how COBB did it with their "race-logic" tunes. It changes how the car responds to extreme varying weather conditions. The Cold dense air (15psi at sea level) requires WGDC on this Stage 2+ tune be dialed back a bit to prevent the overhsoots. Then the challenge becomes meeting target load once its 100f outside again. I'd rather deal with boost oscillations than overshoot load. Dme will just be working like a boost controller and targeting a certain boost instead of load.
He mentioned commanded boost, but I dont know anything of it. He's on vacation soon, so wont hear any updates til probably next year.

Currently back on a pump map that he gave me, I changed my meth to kick in at 50% tmap voltage and to be 'full spray' by 90% tmap, to fight the meth bog we have been experiencing at cold temps.

Wont be able to do any runs until it dries up, probably wont have anything new to report until PI is on .


Edit:
During the dyno run, Ken was getting stuttering with meth engaging at 45% and full spray by 60%. I havent had that problem yet and mine was set similar, but we both turned off meth for our dyno runs.
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      12-20-2016, 05:38 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I was just adding the info so Justin knows that V20 was the first log I took and that the car has been running that tune for weeks. I Then flashed to PPK and did a bunch of pulls (305/340 in VD). Finally, I flashed back to V24 Stage 2+.

You'll see fuel trims were negative for the first set of pulls (V20). LTFT then learned from a positive ~3% down to .5%, essentially cutting fuel, due to flashing PPK. Then you see in the V24 logs fuel trims are adding fuel as the DME heads back toward that 3% LTFT trim.

The corrections in my logs are due to overshooting target boost/load. When you overshoot target Load the DME responds by cutting throttle and retarding timing.

You are working with Wedge, so I'm sure you're following how he's switching towards a method of tuning close to how COBB did it with their "race-logic" tunes. It changes how the car responds to extreme varying weather conditions. The Cold dense air (15psi at sea level) requires WGDC on this Stage 2+ tune be dialed back a bit to prevent the overhsoots. Then the challenge becomes meeting target load once its 100f outside again. I'd rather deal with boost oscillations than overshoot load. Dme will just be working like a boost controller and targeting a certain boost instead of load.
I always thought when you overshoot load it would cut throttle, and drop timing, but not do a correction.
I always see comments like, 'your timing dropped at X rpm', but there are no correction, it is just that normally you get say 6 degrees, but it 'dropped to' 3 degrees.
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      12-20-2016, 09:12 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob_BMW_PNW View Post
I always thought when you overshoot load it would cut throttle, and drop timing, but not do a correction.
I always see comments like, 'your timing dropped at X rpm', but there are no correction, it is just that normally you get say 6 degrees, but it 'dropped to' 3 degrees.
True I've asked that myself a few times and i havent been able to get anyone to con firm.

Seems to me corrections happen consistantly when overshooting and when the throttle closes... if you're right and its just a coincidence then for whatever reason I have corrections all over the place lol.

Pretty sure it registers as a correction though. How would the dme know what value timing advance to run during an overshoot? When you see timing at 3* instead of 10* there is probably also a 7* correction on that cylinder? Why would it work any other way than knock does?

Last edited by bNks334; 12-21-2016 at 10:02 AM..
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      12-20-2016, 10:49 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
True I've asked that myself a few times and i havent been able to get anyone to con firm.

Seems to me corrections happen consistantly when overshooting and when the throttle closes... if you're right and its just a coincidence theb for whatever reason I have corrections all over the place lol.

Pretty sure it registers as a correction though. How would the dme know what value timing advance to run during an overshoot? When you see timing at 3* instead of 10* there is probably also a 7* correction on that cylinder? Why would it work any other way than knock does?
Not all of the time, there are a lot of occasions where you are supposed to get 10, and you only get 3, and zero corrections in that cylinder

If you have a 7 degree correction and timing is showing 3, it means you were supposed to get 10

That is how what I have gathered.
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      12-21-2016, 09:08 AM   #225
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The DME can pull timing and will pull timing and it doesnt always show as a correction. The timing logic in these cars are not as cut and dry as some may think and have been told. And there is more to look at than a timing correction.

Boost overshoot or load overshoot do NOT always cause a timing correction. If it did the cars in STOCK form would be showing timing correction whenever your over 20% throttle. Because these cars overboost all the time at part throttle even in stock form. so its not always over load over boost causing timing corrections.

I'm not sure who told you this. about overboost or overload is always the reason for timing corrections, but its not. AFR can also cause a timing correction. A big jump in timing advance can also cause timing corrections. Regardless of load or boost. if the overboost does not cause knock, the car will not show a timing correction. it will simply reduce throttle to bring boost back down.

Now if the timing advance is too much and creates what the DME considers a knock event or ping during the overboost, a timing correction may be seen. Too little timing advance can also cause timing corrections with an AFR thats not working well with the timing.

There is more to the timing logic on these cars than a timing correction.

The DME can pull timing to reduce torque. But depending on the situation it will not register as a timing correction. But you will see the event by looking at other stuff like Realtime cylinder timing, torque actual and some other things.

The DME will also Adjust AFR slightly if a situation presents itself where it needs to do so. You guys need to think outside timing corrections. they are not the only indicator.
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      12-21-2016, 09:13 AM   #226
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Commanded Boost method is no better or worse than the normal OEM method of controlling boost to be honest. I've used it before.
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      12-21-2016, 09:39 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
Commanded Boost method is no better or worse than the normal OEM method of controlling boost to be honest. I've used it before.
I'm not sure what the difference is, but per wedges latest post in his thread, it seems switching to commanded boost has allowed more boost at redline on his car, which I have never seen before flash only on a n55 dct car.

Looking forward to seeing how your experience is with the ps2 car you are tuning. Hopefully that car is a dct.
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      12-21-2016, 10:15 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
The DME can pull timing and will pull timing and it doesnt always show as a correction. The timing logic in these cars are not as cut and dry as some may think and have been told. And there is more to look at than a timing correction.

Boost overshoot or load overshoot do NOT always cause a timing correction. If it did the cars in STOCK form would be showing timing correction whenever your over 20% throttle. Because these cars overboost all the time at part throttle even in stock form. so its not always over load over boost causing timing corrections.

I'm not sure who told you this. about overboost or overload is always the reason for timing corrections, but its not. AFR can also cause a timing correction. A big jump in timing advance can also cause timing corrections. Regardless of load or boost. if the overboost does not cause knock, the car will not show a timing correction. it will simply reduce throttle to bring boost back down.

Now if the timing advance is too much and creates what the DME considers a knock event or ping during the overboost, a timing correction may be seen. Too little timing advance can also cause timing corrections with an AFR thats not working well with the timing.

There is more to the timing logic on these cars than a timing correction.

The DME can pull timing to reduce torque. But depending on the situation it will not register as a timing correction. But you will see the event by looking at other stuff like Realtime cylinder timing, torque actual and some other things.

The DME will also Adjust AFR slightly if a situation presents itself where it needs to do so. You guys need to think outside timing corrections. they are not the only indicator.
Yeah, I get that it's more complicated than how I stated it. I was just presenting the general concept that the DME controls load with throttle actuation and timing adjustments. Maybe I am dead wrong and I've developed a hardware issue since switching to MHD? Awaiting your feedback on the logs tbh.
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      12-21-2016, 10:24 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Justin@MHD

V24 - 28f - 12/19/16 (Still learning) http://datazap.me/u/banks334/v24-sta...og=0&data=4-15

V20 - 28f - 12/19/16 (Well adapted) http://datazap.me/u/banks334/v20-sta...og=0&data=4-15
V20 - 55f - 11/11/16 (Still learning) http://datazap.me/u/banks334/mhd-4th...og=0&data=5-16

V24 is achieving a higher average load @ 5k+ and greater airflow, but V20 was plotting higher in VD? Doesn't look like load/boost has been smoothed out much at all. Still have overshoots and therefore lots of corrections.



Car physically felt like it bogged when I did the V24 pull from 2k rpms, so maybe that's why the VD log came out lower. I'll get more logs when things warm up this weekend.

i only looked at v0.24 log as thats the only one that matters right now. Whats your plug gap at? old plugs or new? Sorry if thats been posted already.

Also, can you add "Torque Actual' to the log list and do another pull? i want to check something, thanks.
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      12-21-2016, 10:32 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
i only looked at v0.24 log as thats the only one that matters right now. Whats your plug gap at? old plugs or new? Sorry if thats been posted already.

Also, can you add "Torque Actual' to the log list and do another pull? i want to check something, thanks.
BMW branded SILZKBR8D8S (BMW# 12120039664). 1 step colder. Gapped to .022" They have < 10k miles on them. The PPK pulls had some minor corrections as well at WOT, but not nearly as bad as the Stage 2+ pulls. There are corrections present at part throttle, but they seem to correlate to overshoots. My datazap account has some of the other logs.

I will add the Torque Actual parameter to my logs and get some fresh pulls on V24 asap. Warmer temps are coming. 255 RS3's crack loose in 3rd at 60+ mph with stage 2+ lol not fun. Cant be any warmer up in Poughkeepsie I imagine

Going back to what you said above, you can clearly see in the PPK logs that cyl 1 corrections (3*) + cyl 1 timing advance (5*) = the total timing advance (8*) the PPK runs at lower rpms. I know it's not a 100% correlation as you clarified above, but it's a quantifiable trend I've seen. The timing corrections almost always appear to correlate to load/boost overshoots or the DME attempting to preemptively prevent the overshoot from happening when actual values start getting too close to requested.

Last edited by bNks334; 12-21-2016 at 11:52 AM..
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      12-21-2016, 10:46 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
BMW branded SILZKBR8D8S (BMW# 12120039664). 1 step colder. Gapped to .022" They have < 10k miles on them. The PPK pulls had some minor corrections as well at WOT, but not nearly as bad as the Stage 2+ pulls. No corrections present at part throttle. My datazap account has some of the other logs.

I will add the Torque Actual parameter to my logs and get some fresh pulls on V24 asap. Warmer temps are coming. 255 RS3's crack loose in 3rd at 60+ mph with stage 2+ lol not fun. Cant be any warmer up in Poughkeepsie I imagine
yea, logging in NY is bad now without X-Drive. it was like 10 degrees here yesterday, lol.

But yes, if you can add that parameter for me and do another 3rd or 4th gear pull if you can. and we'll go from there.
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      12-21-2016, 03:09 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
The DME can pull timing and will pull timing and it doesnt always show as a correction. The timing logic in these cars are not as cut and dry as some may think and have been told. And there is more to look at than a timing correction.

Boost overshoot or load overshoot do NOT always cause a timing correction. If it did the cars in STOCK form would be showing timing correction whenever your over 20% throttle. Because these cars overboost all the time at part throttle even in stock form. so its not always over load over boost causing timing corrections.

I'm not sure who told you this. about overboost or overload is always the reason for timing corrections, but its not. AFR can also cause a timing correction. A big jump in timing advance can also cause timing corrections. Regardless of load or boost. if the overboost does not cause knock, the car will not show a timing correction. it will simply reduce throttle to bring boost back down.

Now if the timing advance is too much and creates what the DME considers a knock event or ping during the overboost, a timing correction may be seen. Too little timing advance can also cause timing corrections with an AFR thats not working well with the timing.

There is more to the timing logic on these cars than a timing correction.

The DME can pull timing to reduce torque. But depending on the situation it will not register as a timing correction. But you will see the event by looking at other stuff like Realtime cylinder timing, torque actual and some other things.

The DME will also Adjust AFR slightly if a situation presents itself where it needs to do so. You guys need to think outside timing corrections. they are not the only indicator.
Good explanation

How's this look then? I noticed corrections when the timing went from 7 to 9 degrees at peak boost.
Only 3 degrees at the most
http://www.datazap.me/u/robertnguyen...22-23-24-25-26
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      12-21-2016, 09:13 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
yea, logging in NY is bad now without X-Drive. it was like 10 degrees here yesterday, lol.

But yes, if you can add that parameter for me and do another 3rd or 4th gear pull if you can. and we'll go from there.
Still a lot of corrections and a consistent huge overshoot at 4500 rpms. Hopefully these logs help:

V24 - 38f - 4th gear pulls: http://www.datazap.me/u/banks334/v24...15-19-24-30-31


V24 - 38f - 3rd through 4th gear pulls: http://www.datazap.me/u/banks334/v24...og=0&data=4-15

Last edited by bNks334; 12-21-2016 at 10:28 PM..
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      12-21-2016, 10:59 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob_BMW_PNW View Post
Good explanation

How's this look then? I noticed corrections when the timing went from 7 to 9 degrees at peak boost.
Only 3 degrees at the most
http://www.datazap.me/u/robertnguyen...22-23-24-25-26

looks like a little to advanced timing for the AFR at boost onset. not sure if the VANOS has been changed, and how much, but could be the VANOS settings. But honestly its minimal, so i wouldnt worry to much about it if timing correction tables are still stock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Still a lot of corrections and a consistent huge overshoot at 4500 rpms. Hopefully these logs help:

V24 - 38f - 4th gear pulls: http://www.datazap.me/u/banks334/v24...15-19-24-30-31


V24 - 38f - 3rd through 4th gear pulls: http://www.datazap.me/u/banks334/v24...og=0&data=4-15

shoot me an email with your vehicle VIN. i'll send you a modified file to get rid of that overshoot.

twistedtuned@gmail.com
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      12-21-2016, 11:02 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houtan View Post
I'm not sure what the difference is, but per wedges latest post in his thread, it seems switching to commanded boost has allowed more boost at redline on his car, which I have never seen before flash only on a n55 dct car.

Looking forward to seeing how your experience is with the ps2 car you are tuning. Hopefully that car is a dct.
commanded boost method still has the same limits as the original OEM way. just another way to control boost. Nothing wrong with using it.

Find me a DCT with PS2 and i'll show you higher boost without issues and without using commanded boost. The FBO and PI car im doing with the PS2, is 6MT
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      12-22-2016, 01:37 AM   #236
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Is "PS2" pure stage 2
Thanks, been trying to figure that one out for awhile.
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      12-22-2016, 05:00 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1love View Post
Is "PS2" pure stage 2
Thanks, been trying to figure that one out for awhile.
Sorry ????
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      12-22-2016, 07:40 AM   #238
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Quote:
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Is "PS2" pure stage 2
Thanks, been trying to figure that one out for awhile.
most often on this platform yes, when people mention the PS2, they mainly mean Pure Stage 2 turbocharger
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      12-22-2016, 05:27 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
commanded boost method still has the same limits as the original OEM way. just another way to control boost. Nothing wrong with using it.

Find me a DCT with PS2 and i'll show you higher boost without issues and without using commanded boost. The FBO and PI car im doing with the PS2, is 6MT
I just found out recently that ptf switched to Commanded boost after a a while. When they did that the etune was much smoother and stronger. Not sure if it was different because of the limitations of cobb or something else though.

My buddy is the only DCT ps2 car that I know of. He tried flash via mhd when it was initially released with poor results so he is back to a stack setup and his car is running solid. Hopefully there is someone else on here that can help.

I am also still interested in results for stock turbo DCT fbo car on pump and e30. Any results you could share?
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      12-22-2016, 07:27 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houtan View Post
I just found out recently that ptf switched to Commanded boost after a a while. When they did that the etune was much smoother and stronger. Not sure if it was different because of the limitations of cobb or something else though.

My buddy is the only DCT ps2 car that I know of. He tried flash via mhd when it was initially released with poor results so he is back to a stack setup and his car is running solid. Hopefully there is someone else on here that can help.

I am also still interested in results for stock turbo DCT fbo car on pump and e30. Any results you could share?
Your buddy switched to MHD for N55 with his PS2 turbo? who tuned it for him?

MHD isn't a tune it's an app... the OTS maps available through the MHD app (tuned by Justin@MHD) are in no way shape or form meant to run a PS2 turbo.
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      12-22-2016, 08:46 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@MHD View Post
shoot me an email with your vehicle VIN. i'll send you a modified file to get rid of that overshoot.
Overall, the test file you sent me looks less aggressive. No overshoots and less corrections. Despite being less aggressive, the logs from today plot exactly the same in VD as yesterdays V24 logs.

http://datazap.me/u/banks334/test-st...25-26-27-28-29

First 2 loaded runs are from today (Red/Blue). Last 2 loaded runs are from yesterday (Green/Gold).


Here is some logs of 3rd gear pulls and some logs of 3-4 pulls:
http://datazap.me/u/banks334/test-st...og=0&data=4-15

http://datazap.me/u/banks334/test-st...25-26-27-28-29
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      12-23-2016, 12:25 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Your buddy switched to MHD for N55 with his PS2 turbo? who tuned it for him?

MHD isn't a tune it's an app... the OTS maps available through the MHD app (tuned by Justin@MHD) are in no way shape or form meant to run a PS2 turbo.
Etune of course.

The important thing is even with MHD, the DCT cars are still challenging to tune. One of the tuners, wedge, has one and is making progress, but no one has shown one going through the gears at even medium boost 17-18 psi at redline. The only ps2 dct cars running correctly that I have seen are running the stack setup. Wedge is showing progress, but it is still in a single gear. Hoping he figures it out though.
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