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      09-01-2010, 03:46 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
Hey dudes,
I'm a little surprised to see nobody bringing up the modified N54 engines in the 335is and Z4 S-Drive35is.
Just my hypothesis...
I think people are avoiding this very idea because they're hoping the engine will be a little more special than what's offered in the 335is. To admit this fact is to accept the car will be less special than many of us initially hoped for. I for one remain hopeful that M engineers at least improve the turbos to prevent the engine from running out of breath beyond 5500 rpm.
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      09-01-2010, 04:15 AM   #46
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N54 + bigger snails for higher RPMs + cooling.
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      09-01-2010, 04:46 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
That said, I'm a little surprised to see nobody bringing up the modified N54 engines in the 335is and Z4 S-Drive35is. They both produce 370 ft./lbs of torque, and the latter produces 340HP, in the overboost mode.
In fact, the Z4 35is produces 340hp all the time, only the torque is higher in overboost mode. And if you read the threads there, most people seem to agree that the Z4 35is engine will be the one in the 1M providing the 1M will use an N54 variant.
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      09-01-2010, 04:58 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
The "hybrid" clue that Scott mentions could allude to the fact that 1M's N54 has been modified to produce the 370 ft./lbs / 340HP output at all time, and not just in overboost mode.

Just my hypothesis...
I think you nailed it. Take a 135i and add M3 mirrors, M3 suspension arms, M3 brakes, M3 wheels, M3 diff, a couple custom body panels, some new seats based on the M3's seats, and then slap the 'is' N54 in there, add a custom exhaust and a custom intake tract that both make some sexy noises but pass noise requirements, and sell it as an entirely new car. Cheap and easy. I suspect that since Scott was originally talking about a future M3 N55 variant going in the car that clearly didn't work out, as he stated, that the engineers had to do something super quick and all they had to work with was the 'is' motor and the opportunity for bigger air and oil coolers and a new intake and muffler. It'll be a disappointment to some but as a prospective long term owner (HPFP problems and typical BMW warranty BS excepted) it works for me!

JD
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      09-01-2010, 06:29 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madfast View Post
2 twin scroll turbos would be unnecessary... overly complicated...

2 small variable vane turbos? ah, now that's something
with valvetronic anyone?
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      09-01-2010, 07:35 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
...
We had initially toyed with the idea of an 1M when we were conceiving the Coupe and did work with evaluation models then using the engine from the
E46 and the upgraded E46 CSL engine but it proved to be too heavy for the car....

... Valvetronic was the main cause of the time delay but BMW have spent some time on this and are using the N55 as a basis for the next M3.

The best way to describe the engine of the 1M is a "Hybrid" but in the original form of Hybrid, nothing to do with "alternatives", but it is not a straightforward transplant.

There is a lot of this car that will carry over for the next generation 1M ...
Just re reading what Scott's had written and I feel there is still a few possibilites... I feel the key sentence is " but it is not a straightforward transplant" - that to me means they have done something to it to make it better. If it is just a N54 with a higher output - it would have been straight forward.

As the cat converter in both the N55 and the S63 are incorporated with the twinscroll, the indication that it had cats in the midpipes tells us it is likely to have a N54 tubo setup - ie twin turbo and not twinscroll twin turbo or twinscroll.

So, what else has M got at the moment apart from twinscroll twin turbo? One thing that no one has mentioned is the CCM - cylinder-bank comprehensive manifold - which may be incorporated with the twin turbos. However, I don't know if it requires twinscroll for it to work as there's no detail of this technology.

As the N55 was an issue with valtronic - I guess the other logical choice of what ///M has was the S54 plant that was deemed too heavy.

Is it possible that they have built a new S54 block as an aluminium block and mate it with the turbos? That would confirm why some early reports that the 1M is going to be powered by the S54 as it was actually tested with the S54.

Or is it going to be a N54 with CCM incorporated?

Who knows, but after reading this again, especially when scott said it's not a straight forward transplant which means that it is definitely not just a N54 with better cooling because it's already available as a power kit.

My hopes is up again .
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      09-01-2010, 08:11 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
N54 + bigger snails for higher RPMs + cooling.
This is what I'm hoping for.
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      09-01-2010, 08:37 AM   #52
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whats gonna be crazy is that this 1M is gonna use regular BMW oil instead of M oil. I'm used to saying can I have some M oil at the dealership, I wonder if this is gonna cause confusion.
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      09-01-2010, 08:55 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWI6 View Post
whats gonna be crazy is that this 1M is gonna use regular BMW oil instead of M oil. I'm used to saying can I have some M oil at the dealership, I wonder if this is gonna cause confusion.
And you know this because? Typically once M gets ahold of a engine, it becomes a M engine...to say that this is not a M engine, without knowing what engine is in it, is a little premature...that's like saying you can tell if a woman is ugly, has a bad personality, and can't cook, all by looking at a pictue of the back her head...

We can only speculate from the rough info we have.
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      09-01-2010, 09:32 AM   #54
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When will people stop suggesting this two twin-scroll turbo idea? That is not a possible setup on a 6 cylinder car.
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      09-01-2010, 09:49 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
Hey dudes,

I'm an M3 guy, so I'm not quite up to speed on the N54 and N55 as I am the S54 and S65. That said, I'm a little surprised to see nobody bringing up the modified N54 engines in the 335is and Z4 S-Drive35is. They both produce 370 ft./lbs of torque, and the latter produces 340HP, in the overboost mode. This figure matches the speculation about the 1M's output. Couldn't the answer to this question ("what kind of N54 does the 1M have?") be as simple as "the one in the E89 35is"?

The "hybrid" clue that Scott mentions could allude to the fact that 1M's N54 has been modified to produce the 370 ft./lbs / 340HP output at all time, and not just in overboost mode.

Just my hypothesis...
Yes, we know, but hope not. We don't want an "is", we want an M3 killer.
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      09-01-2010, 10:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffnbluff View Post
When will people stop suggesting this two twin-scroll turbo idea? That is not a possible setup on a 6 cylinder car.
+1.
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      09-02-2010, 03:33 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
Just re reading what Scott's had written and I feel there is still a few possibilites... I feel the key sentence is " but it is not a straightforward transplant" - that to me means they have done something to it to make it better. If it is just a N54 with a higher output - it would have been straight forward.

As the cat converter in both the N55 and the S63 are incorporated with the twinscroll, the indication that it had cats in the midpipes tells us it is likely to have a N54 tubo setup - ie twin turbo and not twinscroll twin turbo or twinscroll.

So, what else has M got at the moment apart from twinscroll twin turbo? One thing that no one has mentioned is the CCM - cylinder-bank comprehensive manifold - which may be incorporated with the twin turbos. However, I don't know if it requires twinscroll for it to work as there's no detail of this technology.

As the N55 was an issue with valtronic - I guess the other logical choice of what ///M has was the S54 plant that was deemed too heavy.

Is it possible that they have built a new S54 block as an aluminium block and mate it with the turbos? That would confirm why some early reports that the 1M is going to be powered by the S54 as it was actually tested with the S54.

Or is it going to be a N54 with CCM incorporated?

Who knows, but after reading this again, especially when scott said it's not a straight forward transplant which means that it is definitely not just a N54 with better cooling because it's already available as a power kit.

My hopes is up again .
I think the line about " but it is not a straightforward transplant" could also mean no "is" engine. If you put an "is" engine in the 1M it would be a direct transplant from an "is". If this is true it could be a further advanced N54 than the "is" engine.

BMW would scrap the project before they put out an inferior M product. They are trying to use this car as a way to introduce the M brand to a new audience and M knows they would hurt the M brand for these new buyers if the motor was not a M quality engine. I can see where development of the new M3 motor was not ready yet and M has done something special with the N54.
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      09-02-2010, 03:49 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
+1.
Actually it is possible but not in a traditional way. I do not think this is what they are doing as it is pretty different from how the have used these technologies so far.

What you can do is use exhaust manifolds like is on the N54. They have cylinders 1-3 into one manifold and cylinders 4-6 in another. If you look at the firing order you get good exhaust gas pulse integration. The pulses do not interfere.

You would then use 1 twinscroll turbo on each manifold. You would use only one of the scrolls at low rpm and bring the other scroll in at higher rpm in a sequential maner. The scrolls can even have different AR ratios. My 1987 Rx-7 twin turbo used a set up like this.

This is a good idea as you can get great low speed rpm response with out loosing the top end. I thought this might be what they were doing for the 1M and next M3.

Maybe they are using this or whatever turbo setup is coming on the next M3 on an N54? That would be a "hybrid" as Scott mentioned of the two engines and would eliminate the N55 valvetronic problems? Hmmmm
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      09-02-2010, 03:57 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
In fact, the Z4 35is produces 340hp all the time, only the torque is higher in overboost mode. And if you read the threads there, most people seem to agree that the Z4 35is engine will be the one in the 1M providing the 1M will use an N54 variant.

Hopefully that will mean ECU tuners will pay some more attention to the 35is engines...
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      09-02-2010, 04:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Plus, a M car.. that will most likely be 400lbs less, than his more sophisticated, techno-glitz brother.
Doubtful when BMW is too cheap to even use a CF roof. We'll be lucky if the 1M stays at 3400 lbs and doesn't gain another 50-100 lbs.

Best case scenario is a 3300 lb car with 360 hp which yields a power to weight ratio of 241 hp per metric ton (9.17 lbs/hp).

Most likely scenario is a 3400 lb car with 340 hp yielding a ratio of 221 hp per metric ton (10 lbs/hp).

Worst case scenario is a 3500 lb car with 340 hp yielding 214 hp per metric ton (10.3 lbs/hp).


For referrence:

e46 M3 = 216 hp/ton (10.2 lbs/hp)
e92 M3 = 247 hp/ton (8.94 lbs/hp)
e86 Z4 M = 231 hp/ton (9.54 lbs/hp)
135 tuned to 380 hp = 246 hp/ton (8.95 lbs/hp)

Of course power to weight is a little misleading. For a given ratio, a lighter car will handle and brake better. Not to mention feel much more tossable.
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      09-02-2010, 04:56 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffnbluff View Post
When will people stop suggesting this two twin-scroll turbo idea? That is not a possible setup on a 6 cylinder car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
+1.
Theorectically you can have a twinscroll twinturbo on a six cylinder. I thought it was going to be a problem until I studied what the twinscroll twin turbo does in more detail. I have posted a bunch of stuff when the possible engine was discussed ages ago.

The idea is to separate the exhaust pulses that affect each other. Three cylinders to each turbo, 2 to one scroll and 1 to another where the 2 cylinders which doesn't affect each other as much in terms of firing sequence will go to the same scroll. You just need to have the paths optimised to that setup.

It is quite academic anyway, as I believe it is no longer setup that way although it might have been the valtronic giving them issues to put that setup on.
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      09-02-2010, 05:04 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan135 View Post
Actually it is possible but not in a traditional way. I do not think this is what they are doing as it is pretty different from how the have used these technologies so far.

What you can do is use exhaust manifolds like is on the N54. They have cylinders 1-3 into one manifold and cylinders 4-6 in another. If you look at the firing order you get good exhaust gas pulse integration. The pulses do not interfere.

You would then use 1 twinscroll turbo on each manifold. You would use only one of the scrolls at low rpm and bring the other scroll in at higher rpm in a sequential maner. The scrolls can even have different AR ratios. My 1987 Rx-7 twin turbo used a set up like this.

This is a good idea as you can get great low speed rpm response with out loosing the top end. I thought this might be what they were doing for the 1M and next M3.

Maybe they are using this or whatever turbo setup is coming on the next M3 on an N54? That would be a "hybrid" as Scott mentioned of the two engines and would eliminate the N55 valvetronic problems? Hmmmm
Should have read all post before I reply, there doesn't seem to be any sequential twinscroll setup in the BMW lineup so I would imagine that they won't do that. Although the people who makes their turob does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR View Post
Doubtful when BMW is too cheap to even use a CF roof. We'll be lucky if the 1M stays at 3400 lbs and doesn't gain another 50-100 lbs.

Best case scenario is a 3300 lb car with 360 hp which yields a power to weight ratio of 241 hp per metric ton (9.17 lbs/hp).

Most likely scenario is a 3400 lb car with 340 hp yielding a ratio of 221 hp per metric ton (10 lbs/hp).

Worst case scenario is a 3500 lb car with 340 hp yielding 214 hp per metric ton (10.3 lbs/hp).


For referrence:

e46 M3 = 216 hp/ton (10.2 lbs/hp)
e92 M3 = 247 hp/ton (8.94 lbs/hp)
e86 Z4 M = 231 hp/ton (9.54 lbs/hp)
135 tuned to 380 hp = 246 hp/ton (8.95 lbs/hp)

Of course power to weight is a little misleading. For a given ratio, a lighter car will handle and brake better. Not to mention feel much more tossable.
I thought the CF roof had been implied by Scott re his comment on the render.
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      09-02-2010, 07:21 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
Theorectically you can have a twinscroll twinturbo on a six cylinder. I thought it was going to be a problem until I studied what the twinscroll twin turbo does in more detail. I have posted a bunch of stuff when the possible engine was discussed ages ago.

The idea is to separate the exhaust pulses that affect each other. Three cylinders to each turbo, 2 to one scroll and 1 to another where the 2 cylinders which doesn't affect each other as much in terms of firing sequence will go to the same scroll. You just need to have the paths optimised to that setup.

It is quite academic anyway, as I believe it is no longer setup that way although it might have been the valtronic giving them issues to put that setup on.
So how are you going to handle the transients with one scroll getting twice the exhaust gas of the other that feed the same turbine?

T
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      09-02-2010, 08:12 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan135 View Post
Maybe they are using this or whatever turbo setup is coming on the next M3 on an N54? That would be a "hybrid" as Scott mentioned of the two engines and would eliminate the N55 valvetronic problems? Hmmmm
What are these valvetronic problems you are talking about?
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      09-02-2010, 08:40 AM   #65
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I wonder what are they gonna call it (engine)...It should start with an S.
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      09-02-2010, 11:28 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
Theorectically you can have a twinscroll twinturbo on a six cylinder. I thought it was going to be a problem until I studied what the twinscroll twin turbo does in more detail. I have posted a bunch of stuff when the possible engine was discussed ages ago.

The idea is to separate the exhaust pulses that affect each other. Three cylinders to each turbo, 2 to one scroll and 1 to another where the 2 cylinders which doesn't affect each other as much in terms of firing sequence will go to the same scroll. You just need to have the paths optimised to that setup.

It is quite academic anyway, as I believe it is no longer setup that way although it might have been the valtronic giving them issues to put that setup on.
that setup makes no sense. no matter how many scrolls you have, you still have only 1 turbine being fed by 3 cylinders. you cant evenly divide 3 into 2. unless you have some super trick valve that actively diverts gas into alternating scrolls, it cant be done... and even then it probably wont be worth it...
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