Brake Pad Selection

[Drawn05]

I currently have Hawk HPS brake pads on my 135i, they have been on for about 8 months.

Compared to the stock OEM pads they have terrible initial bite but supposedly good heat tolerance. These pads are supposed to be street pads but I cant stand the lack of bite, especially after others have driven my car and complained how bad the braking is.

I also do a trip out to the drags at least once or twice a month and the ability to brake boost seems rather reduced i.e. the back wheels are spinning at 1500rpm.

I was looking at replacing these pads for a set of the Hawk ceramic PC pads. Reading the info about seems to tick all the boxes but might just be too good to be true.

Can anyone comment on their experience between HPS and PC pads, or recommend another set of pads?

[blutattoo]

I can't comment on the Hawk pads, but you might try bleeding the lines to make sure there are no air bubbles. This would cause the symptoms you're describing. You could also switch to steel braided lines which will increase the initial bite regardless of pad. Just a thought before you spend money on new pads if they're not done.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

I currently have Hawk HPS brake pads on my 135i, they have been on for about 8 months.

Compared to the stock OEM pads they have terrible initial bite but supposedly good heat tolerance. These pads are supposed to be street pads but I cant stand the lack of bite, especially after others have driven my car and complained how bad the braking is.

I also do a trip out to the drags at least once or twice a month and the ability to brake boost seems rather reduced i.e. the back wheels are spinning at 1500rpm.

I was looking at replacing these pads for a set of the Hawk ceramic PC pads. Reading the info about seems to tick all the boxes but might just be too good to be true.

Can anyone comment on their experience between HPS and PC pads, or recommend another set of pads?

HPS is a low dust pad, but with less the OE brake torque. Hawk race pads on the other hand are awesome!

What you want to consider is Stoptech Street Performance, Porterfield R4S, PFC Z-rated or 1038 compounds. There are many other choices on the market as well.

[dcaron9999]

Ive had a disappointing experience with Cool Carbon Brake pads I installed last week-end.
They vibrate when heated up (probably make the rotors too hot). I did not experience this with same stock rotors and pads on the track. The CC pads also have less street bite.

Im looking for a dual-purpose track and street brake pads for my 2011 135i.
Must be low noise, and have good performance whether cold or hot.
Don’t care about dust.
Ideally, must have a notch for stock brake sensor.

What do you recommend between Stoptech Street Performance, Porterfield R4S, PFC Z-rated or 1038 compounds?

Thanks.

[MMisencik157]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Ive had a disappointing experience with Cool Carbon Brake pads I installed last week-end.
They vibrate when heated up (probably make the rotors too hot). I did not experience this with same stock rotors and pads on the track. The CC pads also have less street bite.

Im looking for a dual-purpose track and street brake pads for my 2011 135i.
Must be low noise, and have good performance whether cold or hot.
Don’t care about dust.
Ideally, must have a notch for stock brake sensor.

What do you recommend between Stoptech Street Performance, Porterfield R4S, PFC Z-rated or 1038 compounds?

Thanks.

My friend was having the same problem out at Thunderhill in his e36 m3 using cool carbons. They would be alright for the first lap and then start to feel like the rotors were warped worse and worse every lap. Bad case of pad deposits.

I would go with the stoptech street performance out of those. The R4s is a good street pad but has a lower heat tolerance and will fade on a track pretty easily. The stoptech street performance pads have a slightly lower initial bite but they produce a good amount of torque when you apply more pedal pressure. They will also hold up better on a track.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by MMisencik157

My friend was having the same problem out at Thunderhill in his e36 m3 using cool carbons. They would be alright for the first lap and then start to feel like the rotors were warped worse and worse every lap. Bad case of pad deposits.

Wow! Thanks for sharing this! Ive sent an email to CoolCarbon complaining about this.

What are your thoughts about Hawk HPS pads, to suit my criteria listed above?

[MMisencik157]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Wow! Thanks for sharing this! Ive sent an email to CoolCarbon complaining about this.

What are your thoughts about Hawk HPS pads, to suit my criteria listed above?

Just noticed your other thread in the track section. Definitely pad deposits and not warped rotors.

No problem. When you're first starting out it can be hard to diagnose problems, we've all been there. Pad deposits and warped rotors feel the same (pedal pulsing, wheel can shake, and even an audible "thunk think thunk" sound if its bad enough. You can tell which is which when comparing the brakes cold vs hot. Warped rotors will behave the same regardless of what the temperature of the brakes is, whereas pad deposits are mostly noticeable when the brakes are hot.

Make sure to post what cool carbon says. My guess is that they will tell you it is a street pad and you misused it (took it on a track) which caused it to overheat and leave pad deposits.

In my opinion the HPS is one of the worst so called "performance" pads on the market. They have a very low initial bite (not a huge deal) with very low torque and very low temperature resistance (huge deal). They feel weak across the board. They are good for people who don't drive their car hard and are extremely anal about dust. Thats it. Using these pads on a track is an all around terrible idea, they are worse than OEM pads and I have always done my best to steer people away from them.

With that being said you need to start making sacrifices as you start getting faster (a little dust and perhaps a little noise every now and then). It sounds like you're still very new but are already growing out of being able to use pure street pads on the track. The next level of progression is to move to a "hybrid" pad (Ferodo DS2500, stoptech street performance, Project Mu HC+800, etc.) These pads will be much better on the track than the OEM or cool carbons that you used but obviously not quite as good as a full race pad.

As you really start gaining experience and picking up speed you will eventually find that street pads are great for street and track pads are great for track. Swapping pads for track days is easy and relatively quick once you get the hang of it. Or depending on how many street miles you do in between events you can just leave your race pads in full time.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by MMisencik157

Just noticed your other thread in the track section. Definitely pad deposits and not warped rotors. When you're first starting out it can be hard to diagnose problems, we've all been there. Pad deposits and warped rotors feel the same (pedal pulsing, wheel can shake, and even an audible "thunk think thunk" sound if its bad enough. You can tell which is which when comparing the brakes cold vs hot. Warped rotors will behave the same regardless of what the temperature of the brakes is, whereas pad deposits are mostly noticeable when the brakes are hot.

Fantastic advice once again! Thanks a bunch!

Definitely pad deposit issue then, since I have no pulsations when cold or on the streets, only at the end of my sessions. I received advice today from a local veteran, which stated that the pad deposit issues is very frequent when changing pads, and keeping the same rotors. He advise that I bed them agressively, and start thinking about a dedicated track pad as well. He mentioned Hawk HP Plus, or DTC60, and that I should learn to accept noise.

Originally Posted by MMisencik157

Make sure to post what cool carbon says. My guess is that they will tell you it is a street pad and you misused it (took it on a track) which caused it to overheat and leave pad deposits.

I received feedback from CoolCarbon, which I will post separately. They asked that I bed my pads once again.

Originally Posted by MMisencik157

In my opinion the HPS is one of the worst so called "performance" pads on the market. They have a very low initial bite (not a huge deal) with very low torque and very low temperature resistance (huge deal). They feel weak across the board. They are good for people who don't drive their car hard and are extremely anal about dust. Thats it. Using these pads on a track is an all around terrible idea, they are worse than OEM pads and I have always done my best to steer people away from them.

Surprised to hear that. So its best that I skip to Hawk HP Plus or better then. I did not get good feedback about the STOPTECH, neither on the street nor on the track, so Im hesitant with these.

Originally Posted by MMisencik157

With that being said you need to start making sacrifices as you start getting faster (a little dust and perhaps a little noise every now and then). It sounds like you're still very new but are already growing out of being able to use pure street pads on the track. The next level of progression is to move to a "hybrid" pad (Ferodo DS2500, stoptech street performance, Project Mu HC+800, etc.) These pads will be much better on the track than the OEM or cool carbons that you used but obviously not quite as good as a full race pad.

As you really start gaining experience and picking up speed you will eventually find that street pads are great for street and track pads are great for track. Swapping pads for track days is easy and relatively quick once you get the hang of it. Or depending on how many street miles you do in between events you can just leave your race pads in full time.

I lap on a weekly basis and the track is 10 minutes from where I live. I dont see myself changing pads every week during summer, so I might make the jump and see if I live with the noise. A bonus is my wife will want to use my car less.

With winter rapidly approaching over here, I dont mind chaning back to street pads until next spring (still have my old stock pads with 30% life left in them).

[dcaron9999]

I promised to post the reply from CoolCarbon, so here it is:

"Hi Daniel- If you search the forums enough you will find the same issue with many other brands of Street/ Street performance pads when used on the track including Stoptech, Hawk, OE, etc



One possibility is in fact pad deposits.



This is generally caused during the bedding process procedures being too rapid, incomplete or simply allowing the car to come to a complete stop while the brakes are hot.

Also possible following a 15/20 minute session if brakes are too hot when parking between events-many use parking brake for final stop to avoid any localized deposit.



This can cause pad print/ deposits and is often seen as a print on the rotor in the shape of the pad.



This localized deposit creates a high spot which can cause vibration and should be removed.

Removal can be accomplished by one of the following procedures:

1) Driving the car over a period of 1-2 weeks until removed

2) Aggressively rebedding the pads

3) Cleaning the rotor with a green Scotchbrite pad and Brake Kleen

4) Cleaning the rotor with a 3m pad as per attached (extreme cases)



There are however other possible causes for what you experienced:

1) Warped rotors

2) Contamination on mating surface between rotor and hub

3) Contamination on mating surface between wheel and rotor

4) Inconsistent wheel bolt torque

5) Front control arm bushings

6) Other causes



We would suggest rebedding per our procedures as a first step as this is the easiest to accomplish.



The formula that we use is unique.



The BMW pads are grabby and gives about 20% of full braking on initial apply with no modulation below this and are not very linear above this initial apply.



The Cool Carbon friction level is just above BMW OE cold 0.41 vs 0.37 and increases with heat to just over 0.50 mu.

The Cool Carbon pads are actually stronger all the way from 0 to ABS and are very linear without the grabby feel which is sometimes confused with initial bite.

A very good formula should allow full modulation of the brakes throughout the range of braking.

The difference between the OE and the CC may take a short adjustment period, but the CC are very comfortable as a daily driver and become more aggressive at higher temperatures.



The CC pads come with a stainless steel shim that blocks heat 3x better than steel; Ti shims block heat 5x steel and are better in this respect. We would suggest to use one or the other but not both.



Also keep in mind that this formula is a Street Performance pad , not a true track pad, but many do use this pad for light track use with good results.



Hope this helps

[froop]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Fantastic advice once again! Thanks a bunch!

Definitely pad deposit issue then, since I have no pulsations when cold or on the streets, only at the end of my sessions. I received advice today from a local veteran, which stated that the pad deposit issues is very frequent when changing pads, and keeping the same rotors. He advise that I bed them agressively, and start thinking about a dedicated track pad as well. He mentioned Hawk HP Plus, or DTC60, and that I should learn to accept noise.

I received feedback from CoolCarbon, which I will post separately. They asked that I bed my pads once again.

Surprised to hear that. So its best that I skip to Hawk HP Plus or better then. I did not get good feedback about the STOPTECH, neither on the street nor on the track, so Im hesitant with these.

I lap on a weekly basis and the track is 10 minutes from where I live. I dont see myself changing pads every week during summer, so I might make the jump and see if I live with the noise. A bonus is my wife will want to use my car less.

With winter rapidly approaching over here, I dont mind chaning back to street pads until next spring (still have my old stock pads with 30% life left in them).

There's a lot of good feedback out there for Ferodo DS2500's. Streetable with similar sound and dust to OEM but with much great fade resistance on the track. Haven't heard any feedback about pad deposits either. If you are DD'ing and tracking once per week if suggest giving those a go.

[tuj]

I haven't had Hawk HPS pads on my 135i, but I have had them on a number of other cars and honestly I thought they were great street pads, provided they were bedded correctly and intermittently. They are very low dust and don't require any heating to function properly, which makes them a great street and autox pad. I have tried the more race-oriented Hawk pads and either found them to be noisy or dusty or require heat to bite well. I'm really surprised you aren't getting good bite with the HPS pads. I would strongly check the bleed on the lines.

[Tommeh]

Just put some Hawk HP+ on my car... Don't do it. So embarrassing at stop lights :c

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Drawn05

I currently have Hawk HPS brake pads on my 135i, they have been on for about 8 months.

Compared to the stock OEM pads they have terrible initial bite but supposedly good heat tolerance. These pads are supposed to be street pads but I cant stand the lack of bite, especially after others have driven my car and complained how bad the braking is.

I also do a trip out to the drags at least once or twice a month and the ability to brake boost seems rather reduced i.e. the back wheels are spinning at 1500rpm.

I was looking at replacing these pads for a set of the Hawk ceramic PC pads. Reading the info about seems to tick all the boxes but might just be too good to be true.

Can anyone comment on their experience between HPS and PC pads, or recommend another set of pads?

Did you machine the rotors when you switched compounds? Sounds like you did not, and that is the problem you are having. The HPS usually have pretty good initial bite.

If you are changing compounds, you need a clean rotor or the new pads will not bed in properly. You still have the old compound on the rotor, and a lot of brake compounds are incompatible.

Incompatible compounds can also cause significant vibrations, as sections of the rotor may bed in to the new pads, but not all the rotor face.

One nice thing about Hawk pads is all their pads are compatible with each other, so you can swap back and forth among their compounds for street/track without changing rotors or machining.

Switching to Hawk Ceramic will probably make the initial bite worse. Have tried them, and they have significantly less initial bite than the HPS or HP+.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by Tommeh

Just put some Hawk HP+ on my car... Don't do it. So embarrassing at stop lights :c

Plus they just don't really perform that well. A good hybrid pad that is years ahead in technology and compound is the Fedrodo DS2500. Give those a shot next time.

[Tommeh]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Plus they just don't really perform that well. A good hybrid pad that is years ahead in technology and compound is the Fedrodo DS2500. Give those a shot next time.

Will do. Im trying to do as many spirited drives as I can find to burn these HP+'s up lol...