Camber / Toe issue

E87ddk · 02-08-2012, 02:58 AM

Hello folks, new here....

My lovely BMW has a minor issue. I've found out that there are quite a lot of suspension "wizards" in here, so i'll try and post the issue, and maybe get some positive response.

My car is an E87 from 2008. Shares the same suspension as other 1'ers to my knowledge.

Any way. Previous owner has slided in to a kerb during last winter. Wheel replaced, nothing other damaged found by BMW.

I however did an alignment when i bought the car (i always do that).

Left rear wheel was not possible to get more than -1 camber, if TOE was to be within specs. Regardless of how hard the technician tried. Right side was no prob.

It seems that camber can be adjusted to quite a lot, BUT the TOE then slips.
The camber arm (big alloy thing) has been replaced, no change.

There is NO visual damage to any arms, OR the subframe...

Any advice ??

cpt97m3 · 02-08-2012, 10:01 PM

Something is bent. Could be the toe arm, or one of the two upper arms if you have already replaced the lower arm. A good shop should be able to take a close look to find out which one(s) may be bent. It's also possible the subframe slipped toward the other side in the impact. There is some slop in the 4 bolts that hold the subframe to the body, so that may need to be adjusted.

HP Autosport · 02-10-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpt97m3

Something is bent. Could be the toe arm, or one of the two upper arms if you have already replaced the lower arm. A good shop should be able to take a close look to find out which one(s) may be bent. It's also possible the subframe slipped toward the other side in the impact. There is some slop in the 4 bolts that hold the subframe to the body, so that may need to be adjusted.

Since all the suspension arms are bolted to the subframe no matter how much the subfame have shifted the toe and camber will not change side to side. However, the thrust angle well.

What impacts camber the most would be the upper wishbone or the lower camber link. The lower camber link is a flimsy stamped steel piece so I would look at that component very closely one more time.

E87ddk · 02-10-2012, 04:26 PM

Hello.

Well, the arm for adjusting camber HAS been replaced.
Camber kan easily be dialed in to specs. But then toe slips.
Im no wizz in This field. But it seems the toe-arm is too short, so to speak.

When toe is at spec(maxed out). I can at the same time only get -1 degree camber. If i go for more camber, toe slips and wheel starts to point outwards. (if i remeber correctly)

HP Autosport · 02-10-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E87ddk

Hello.

Well, the arm for adjusting camber HAS been replaced.
Camber kan easily be dialed in to specs. But then toe slips.
Im no wizz in This field. But it seems the toe-arm is too short, so to speak.

When toe is at spec(maxed out). I can at the same time only get -1 degree camber. If i go for more camber, toe slips and wheel starts to point outwards. (if i remeber correctly)

If you run out of toe adjustments, the solution is to get an adjustable toe link kit, which allow more adjustment than factory allows:

E87ddk · 02-10-2012, 07:47 PM

They look great.

I tried sending a pm. Asking for a Price. But pm fails from my iPhone.

chachacha28 · 02-10-2012, 07:50 PM

listed as 289 + shipping on their website

http://hpashop.com/HP-Autowerks-E8x-...2-e9x-nonM.htm

E87ddk · 02-12-2012, 12:30 PM

Thats great. Can they be adjusted to be both longer AND shorter than OEM??

HP Autosport · 02-12-2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E87ddk

Thats great. Can they be adjusted to be both longer AND shorter than OEM??

They were meant to go shorter since when you start lowering the rear of these cars they toe-in excessively.

E87ddk · 02-14-2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

Quote:

Originally Posted by E87ddk

Thats great. Can they be adjusted to be both longer AND shorter than OEM??

They were meant to go shorter since when you start lowering the rear of these cars they toe-in excessively.

Nice.

But looking at my alignment paper, toe starts to go negative (wheel point outwards) when camber is dialed in to specs (-1.5 degree).

HP Autosport · 02-14-2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E87ddk

Nice.

But looking at my alignment paper, toe starts to go negative (wheel point outwards) when camber is dialed in to specs (-1.5 degree).

The adjustable links will go much longer than stock as well.

MilehighM3 · 03-08-2012, 11:06 PM

The subframe is bent where the toe link bolts to it. I see this a lot, it's really weak there. It can be corrected by a frame shop, or a port a power (basically a hydraulic jack with a variety of attachments). The other solution would be the Rogue/HP style links with a greater range of adjustment.

E87ddk · 04-06-2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

The subframe is bent where the toe link bolts to it. I see this a lot, it's really weak there. It can be corrected by a frame shop, or a port a power (basically a hydraulic jack with a variety of attachments). The other solution would be the Rogue/HP style links with a greater range of adjustment.

Very intereresting. Ive had my local garage and bmw inspect the subframe, arms, rods etc. Nothing seems damaged??

:-/

MilehighM3 · 04-06-2012, 07:38 AM

You have to look very closely and know what you're looking for to notice the bend. Even still, it tough. It really the only thing that can be bent based on your story.

E87ddk · 04-06-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

You have to look very closely and know what you're looking for to notice the bend. Even still, it tough. It really the only thing that can be bent based on your story.

Is this the place where the bend should be ?

.

Ps. I looked at the old lignment report. Things werent THAT bad i Think. I do know that the left rear wheel was changed after curb impact. Bmw just replaced wheel, no alignment was done until i bougt the car.

MilehighM3 · 04-06-2012, 10:45 AM

Yes along the welds on the top and bottom. Typically if there is a bend, looks closely at the interior corners of the welds and see if any paint has started to flake off. If the paint is cracking or coming up at all, that's a good indication the metal has been bent I that location. If the alignment "isn't that bad", what does that indicate? Can you post the alignment sheet?

E87ddk · 04-06-2012, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

Yes along the welds on the top and bottom. Typically if there is a bend, looks closely at the interior corners of the welds and see if any paint has started to flake off. If the paint is cracking or coming up at all, that's a good indication the metal has been bent I that location. If the alignment "isn't that bad", what does that indicate? Can you post the alignment sheet?

Well, car is 4 years old (thou only 28.000KM) so a LITTLE paint "flaking" around the welds on the subframe is present. Maybe flaking is a strong word, but the black paint is no 100% all places (not only thw welds)

Here are the before alignment.
One note!! BMW (amateurs) had replaced the damaged wheel with a 195-55x16" and not the correct 205-55x16". It actually made the camber a little worse (not much)

Here are the after alignment with 18" 261's . The rear alignment was set for the same specs in both sides to make the car handle equal.

MilehighM3 · 04-06-2012, 04:13 PM

I don't think you have anything to worry about looking at those numbers. They're balanced, and within specs. Especially for maximum tire life. Call it good!

E87ddk · 04-06-2012, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

I don't think you have anything to worry about looking at those numbers. They're balanced, and within specs. Especially for maximum tire life. Call it good!

The numbers are "ok"..
But as written earlier, camber and toe on left rear is not able to get spot on. Max camber is ~ -1 and toe just around spec. If going for -1.5 camber, as pr. Spec. Toe drifts out.

Right side is no prob to work with.
So somerhing is not 100% as it's supposed.

02-08-2012, 02:58 AM	#1
E87ddk New Member 2 Rep 11 Posts Drives: E87 118D with 264M. Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Middle earth iTrader: (0)	Camber / Toe issue Hello folks, new here.... My lovely BMW has a minor issue. I've found out that there are quite a lot of suspension "wizards" in here, so i'll try and post the issue, and maybe get some positive response. My car is an E87 from 2008. Shares the same suspension as other 1'ers to my knowledge. Any way. Previous owner has slided in to a kerb during last winter. Wheel replaced, nothing other damaged found by BMW. I however did an alignment when i bought the car (i always do that). Left rear wheel was not possible to get more than -1 camber, if TOE was to be within specs. Regardless of how hard the technician tried. Right side was no prob. It seems that camber can be adjusted to quite a lot, BUT the TOE then slips. The camber arm (big alloy thing) has been replaced, no change. There is NO visual damage to any arms, OR the subframe... Any advice ??
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02-08-2012, 10:01 PM	#2
cpt97m3 AutoXer 34 Rep 683 Posts Drives: 2009 135i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: So Cal iTrader: (2)	Something is bent. Could be the toe arm, or one of the two upper arms if you have already replaced the lower arm. A good shop should be able to take a close look to find out which one(s) may be bent. It's also possible the subframe slipped toward the other side in the impact. There is some slop in the 4 bolts that hold the subframe to the body, so that may need to be adjusted. __________________ 2009 135i, Alpine White, 6MT, M-Sport, iDrive, iPod/USB, Heated Seats, Premium Sound, BMW Assist
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02-10-2012, 04:26 PM	#4
E87ddk New Member 2 Rep 11 Posts Drives: E87 118D with 264M. Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Middle earth iTrader: (0)	Hello. Well, the arm for adjusting camber HAS been replaced. Camber kan easily be dialed in to specs. But then toe slips. Im no wizz in This field. But it seems the toe-arm is too short, so to speak. When toe is at spec(maxed out). I can at the same time only get -1 degree camber. If i go for more camber, toe slips and wheel starts to point outwards. (if i remeber correctly) __________________ ___________________ L
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02-10-2012, 07:47 PM	#6
E87ddk New Member 2 Rep 11 Posts Drives: E87 118D with 264M. Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Middle earth iTrader: (0)	They look great. I tried sending a pm. Asking for a Price. But pm fails from my iPhone. __________________ ___________________ L
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02-10-2012, 07:50 PM	#7
chachacha28 NCOIC of Kickin It 78 Rep 946 Posts Drives: 08 135i "Simona" Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Great Falls MT iTrader: (1)	listed as 289 + shipping on their website http://hpashop.com/HP-Autowerks-E8x-...2-e9x-nonM.htm
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02-12-2012, 12:30 PM	#8
E87ddk New Member 2 Rep 11 Posts Drives: E87 118D with 264M. Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Middle earth iTrader: (0)	Thats great. Can they be adjusted to be both longer AND shorter than OEM?? __________________ ___________________ L
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03-08-2012, 11:06 PM	#12
MilehighM3 Brigadier General 915 Rep 3,456 Posts Drives: Harrop E90 M3 Join Date: May 2011 Location: Colorado Springs iTrader: (14) Garage List 2009 E90 M3 [6.50]	The subframe is bent where the toe link bolts to it. I see this a lot, it's really weak there. It can be corrected by a frame shop, or a port a power (basically a hydraulic jack with a variety of attachments). The other solution would be the Rogue/HP style links with a greater range of adjustment.
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04-06-2012, 07:38 AM	#14
MilehighM3 Brigadier General 915 Rep 3,456 Posts Drives: Harrop E90 M3 Join Date: May 2011 Location: Colorado Springs iTrader: (14) Garage List 2009 E90 M3 [6.50]	You have to look very closely and know what you're looking for to notice the bend. Even still, it tough. It really the only thing that can be bent based on your story.
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04-06-2012, 10:45 AM	#16
MilehighM3 Brigadier General 915 Rep 3,456 Posts Drives: Harrop E90 M3 Join Date: May 2011 Location: Colorado Springs iTrader: (14) Garage List 2009 E90 M3 [6.50]	Yes along the welds on the top and bottom. Typically if there is a bend, looks closely at the interior corners of the welds and see if any paint has started to flake off. If the paint is cracking or coming up at all, that's a good indication the metal has been bent I that location. If the alignment "isn't that bad", what does that indicate? Can you post the alignment sheet?
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04-06-2012, 04:13 PM	#18
MilehighM3 Brigadier General 915 Rep 3,456 Posts Drives: Harrop E90 M3 Join Date: May 2011 Location: Colorado Springs iTrader: (14) Garage List 2009 E90 M3 [6.50]	I don't think you have anything to worry about looking at those numbers. They're balanced, and within specs. Especially for maximum tire life. Call it good!
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