M1 engine speculation

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

er.. I didn't say it couldn't, or wouldn't outperform the M3.. I said "Why does it matter?

If all you are seeking is M3 performance, buy an M3 or equivalent! Most who are worried about such things will most likely never buy either. To many, the actual performance figures don't matter, it's how well the car suites your driving style/needs.

400HP means nothing, if you don't know how to use it. So 600 HP spec means nothing, or very little to those who seek a well rounded GT.

Bragging rights are for those with egg-shell egoes.

I'm trying to say that this new M1 will be a modern version of the M3 we have seen in previous generations... E30, E36, E46. The E82 M1 will share closer similarities with older versions of M3 than the E92 M3. All M3's have always been around the same size of the E82 and they have all been 6 cylinders. The E92 is the biggest of the bunch and the only V8. Just my 5 cents. Others may disagree.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by BMW86

I'm trying to say that this new M1 will be a modern version of the M3 we have seen in previous generations... E30, E36, E46. The E82 M1 will share closer similarities with older versions of M3 than the E92 M3. All M3's have always been around the same size of the E82 and they have all been 6 cylinders. The E92 is the biggest of the bunch and the only V8. Just my 5 cents. Others may disagree.

While I agree with the point that you are making. The E30 M3 is a 4 banger. and each sucessive 3 has gotten larger and the E30 is much smaller than the E82

[Robert]

Here's a good read on twin scroll design and benefits.

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-09...ign/index.html

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by BMW86

I'm trying to say that this new M1 will be a modern version of the M3 we have seen in previous generations... E30, E36, E46. The E82 M1 will share closer similarities with older versions of M3 than the E92 M3. All M3's have always been around the same size of the E82 and they have all been 6 cylinders. The E92 is the biggest of the bunch and the only V8. Just my 5 cents. Others may disagree.

Bigger doesn't mean bigger engine, I means physical size... that is what we are talking about. And yes, the 135i and subsequently the M1 is much smaller, like the e30 M3.

I guess you worded it confusingly when you quoted me, I thought you were trying to make a counter point!

[chris719]

It would never happen, but it would be awesome if they put the S54 with a few more HP squeezed out of it in the car...

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by chris719

It would never happen, but it would be awesome if they put the S54 with a few more HP squeezed out of it in the car...

As fantastic as the S54 is it is an outdated design at this point. M could no doubt update it, but that would cost a lot of money.

And I never really liked the rasp...

[chris719]

I wouldn't really say naturally aspirated 104 hp / L is outdated but hey... I guess the Z06's engine is a dinosaur in comparison.

And the rasp doesn't exist on the Z4M applications of S54 like it did on the E46 M3.

Would never happen due to cost reasons as you cited, and probably CO2 emissions as well. It would fit very well though because I feel it is a superior engine in character for a sports car and would further differentiate it from the 135. Based on scott26's posting, the engine will have 345 HP, which is within reach today via tuning.

[ORIGIN M.]

Well if you consider the n54/n55 power numbers are under rated, then it shall be very close to 400...

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by chris719

I wouldn't really say naturally aspirated 104 hp / L is outdated but hey... I guess the Z06's engine is a dinosaur in comparison.

And the rasp doesn't exist on the Z4M applications of S54 like it did on the E46 M3.

Would never happen due to cost reasons as you cited, and probably CO2 emissions as well. It would fit very well though because I feel it is a superior engine in character for a sports car and would further differentiate it from the 135. Based on scott26's posting, the engine will have 345 HP, which is within reach today via tuning.

Fair enough, and dont get me wrong, I am not knocking the S54. Im going to compare to it to computers.
Lets say that you bought a $5000 computer 4 years ago. No matter how good that computer still is, technology has advanced so much that it is outdated. Its the same with cars really. You can always make something better than you made it a few years ago...except GM

But here is my thng. If the engine will be producing over 350 stock, then is it safe to say that you easily obtain an extra 70 HP with a chip just like on the N54?

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Fair enough, and dont get me wrong, I am not knocking the S54. Im going to compare to it to computers.
Lets say that you bought a $5000 computer 4 years ago. No matter how good that computer still is, technology has advanced so much that it is outdated. Its the same with cars really. You can always make something better than you made it a few years ago...except GM

But here is my thng. If the engine will be producing over 350 stock, then is it safe to say that you easily obtain an extra 70 HP with a chip just like on the N54?

Rarely do you have to touch an //M engine. It's about the over-all package, not the individual components. Secondly, more horsepower is meaningless without better grip.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Fair enough, and dont get me wrong, I am not knocking the S54. Im going to compare to it to computers.
Lets say that you bought a $5000 computer 4 years ago. No matter how good that computer still is, technology has advanced so much that it is outdated. Its the same with cars really. You can always make something better than you made it a few years ago...except GM

But here is my thng. If the engine will be producing over 350 stock, then is it safe to say that you easily obtain an extra 70 HP with a chip just like on the N54?

Well, you can't compare it to computers because engines don't increase in power exponentially every few years. The S54 is still more advanced in many ways than the N54. GM is proving this very fact with the LS series engines, looks like OHV isn't quite dead yet.

I would bet that all future BMW engines will be more difficult to tune due to their experience with the N54. There is no such thing as impossible, but the bar for difficulty will be raised once again. It's going to cost more and be more obvious I would guess. I deal with embedded devices on a regular basis at work, and there are many techniques that they have yet to use to lock down the engine control software and it's inputs.

[Advevo]

The idea of a turbo 6 cil is stupid for a ///M1

Why because we have an 135i already with chip 326hp. So if people want turbo s buy a 135i. What s the point of bringing a ///M1 turbo.

The M1 should be an atmo with 345hp. A drivers ///M car should always be an atmo.

Turbo ///M are good for the big cruise ships like M5 M3 and X5 X6M. A drivers car like the 1 series deserves only one engine and that is a high rev atmo engine with 345hp. Everything else is only made to make easy money. The 135i was enough then.

[RäDIOCLäSH]

Originally Posted by Taymaishu

Strange that nobody has even considered the option of a supercharged 6...... THAT would be lovely.

I concur...my thoughts exactly!

[ORIGIN M.]

Boost Advevo... More Boost!!!

Originally Posted by Advevo

The idea of a turbo 6 cil is stupid for a ///M1

Why because we have an 135i already with chip 326hp. So if people want turbo s buy a 135i. What s the point of bringing a ///M1 turbo.

The M1 should be an atmo with 345hp. A drivers ///M car should always be an atmo.

Turbo ///M are good for the big cruise ships like M5 M3 and X5 X6M. A drivers car like the 1 series deserves only one engine and that is a high rev atmo engine with 345hp. Everything else is only made to make easy money. The 135i was enough then.

[amdmaxx]

turbo = lots of torque, better emissions and fuel economy.. Get on with the progress..

[Advevo]

yes i go on with the progress.

Is the letter ///M Motorsport or what. I have raced all my life. And turbo engines are pain in the ass on track.

Why do you think we have porsche carrera cup, GT3 cup and not Porsche GT2 cup. Go drive on track on the limit and you know it.

Most of the guys talking about turbo s and torque are highway burners. Higway burners you can buy at almost every corner of the street. Well balanced chassis with atmo engines wich can be perfectly controlled with throttle in corners (yes corners guys not straights) is a piece of art. And worth the ///M money which has to be paid for it.

If you want highway burners buy a modded 135i

It has totally no use if the M1 gets a 6 cil turbo if you looking for ///M motorsport in a car. That means corners yes corners.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Rarely do you have to touch an //M engine. It's about the over-all package, not the individual components. Secondly, more horsepower is meaningless without better grip.

That is very true...but that isnt what I am arguing. And the S54 engine design is almost 10 years old at this point...its very good, but my point is that BMW can no doubt do better because of better technologies.

Its the same reasoning as to why the E46 M3 wasnt powered by an S14

Originally Posted by chris719

Well, you can't compare it to computers because engines don't increase in power exponentially every few years. The S54 is still more advanced in many ways than the N54. GM is proving this very fact with the LS series engines, looks like OHV isn't quite dead yet.

I would bet that all future BMW engines will be more difficult to tune due to their experience with the N54. There is no such thing as impossible, but the bar for difficulty will be raised once again. It's going to cost more and be more obvious I would guess. I deal with embedded devices on a regular basis at work, and there are many techniques that they have yet to use to lock down the engine control software and it's inputs.

The GM was a bit a joke. And dont be so literal about it. I was simply saying that the technology is always advancing as new coding techniques, new materials, new machining and casting technologies become available.

And do you honestly think that I believe that automobile engines have been doubling in HP every 18 months for the past 150 years or so?

Its a metaphor, not a direct comparison.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by chris719

I would bet that all future BMW engines will be more difficult to tune due to their experience with the N54. There is no such thing as impossible, but the bar for difficulty will be raised once again. It's going to cost more and be more obvious I would guess. I deal with embedded devices on a regular basis at work, and there are many techniques that they have yet to use to lock down the engine control software and it's inputs.

I don't think they'll be more difficult to tune, I just think they'll be more difficult to tune and keep under warranty.

If someone want's to tap into the wiring harness and manipulate signals (like the current piggybacks do), there's not much they can do to stop it. They can certianly monitor for it though, and collect enough information to deny warranty claims.

They might very well be able to prevent people from flashing the cars though, or clearing manipulation codes once they've been set.

The automakers want to lock the ECUs down, but that's almost giving them a monopoly on service, which doesn't sit will with lawmakers. There's a push going on right now to force automakers to make the diagnosis of modern vehicle more accessable to independent mechanics (rather than forcing them to buy the factory diagnosis equipment which costs thousands of dollars and isn't practical for a small shop) so it will be interesting to see how that plays into the whole thing.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I don't think they'll be more difficult to tune, I just think they'll be more difficult to tune and keep under warranty.

If someone want's to tap into the wiring harness and manipulate signals (like the current piggybacks do), there's not much they can do to stop it. They can certianly monitor for it though, and collect enough information to deny warranty claims.

They might very well be able to prevent people from flashing the cars though, or clearing manipulation codes once they've been set.

The automakers want to lock the ECUs down, but that's almost giving them a monopoly on service, which doesn't sit will with lawmakers. There's a push going on right now to force automakers to make the diagnosis of modern vehicle more accessable to independent mechanics (rather than forcing them to buy the factory diagnosis equipment which costs thousands of dollars and isn't practical for a small shop) so it will be interesting to see how that plays into the whole thing.

With the fuel economy war on our hands, the only thing manufacturer's can do is invest in technology. Thus they will want to protect their technology and patents and lock it all down.

The days of messing with engines is over. If people want cheap power, they buy a Camaro... playing with a M1's engine management, because someone wants a few extra horsepower (that they can't even use)... then be prepared to spend thousands.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

With the fuel economy war on our hands, the only thing manufacturer's can do is invest in technology. Thus they will want to protect their technology and patents and lock it all down.

The days of messing with engines is over. If people want cheap power, they buy a Camaro... playing with a M1's engine management, because someone wants a few extra horsepower (that they can't even use)... then be prepared to spend thousands.

I guess the fact that we're seeing 100Hp from a $400 piggyback on the N54 just escapes you?

What the manufacturers are trying to protect is the proift they turn in the service department. You don't need access to propriety information to be able to diagnose a car, you just need the data being generated.

[AlBel1214]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

That is very true...but that isnt what I am arguing. And the S54 engine design is almost 10 years old at this point...its very good, but my point is that BMW can no doubt do better because of better technologies.

Its the same reasoning as to why the E46 M3 wasnt powered by an S14



The GM was a bit a joke. And dont be so literal about it. I was simply saying that the technology is always advancing as new coding techniques, new materials, new machining and casting technologies become available.

And do you honestly think that I believe that automobile engines have been doubling in HP every 18 months for the past 150 years or so?

Its a metaphor, not a direct comparison.

Come on broken everyone knows BMW follows Moores Law...

[JimD]

I googled the N55 to learn more about it and came across an informative article explaining a little on the twin scroll (although not as well as the article linked to the second post on this thread) and the direct inject with valvtronic. It will be quite an engine. The same article speculated that the N55 will be the engine for the "normal" BMWs with the N54 used to create special high output versions like the Z4 with significantly more than 300 hp.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/05/26/th...w-5-series-gt/

With respect to HPFP, it would be interesting to compare how close the second mechanical fuel pump on the engine is in both cases to the exhaust manifold and/or turbo. It's hard to say for sure but the best explanation to me is some sort of heat soak related cavitation problem and if that were true, keeping the fuel pump cooler (or the pressure from the gas tank electric pump higher) would help.

The characteristics of the N55 seem better for the M1, however, since it is supposed to be able to carry boost more effectively to high rpm. The N54 falling off a little by redline was one reason given by one of the magazines for not rating the 135i more highly in their "drivers car" competition.

Is the "best" arrangement a twin turbo twin scroll? And does BMW get any "twin scroll" type benefit from the current twin turbos of the N54? In other words, does splitting the exhaust between two turbos eliminate linking any cylinders with exhaust valves open at the same time through the exhaust manafold? Some of you obviously know more about BMWs and probably know this but I do not. I suspect it could not provide all the potential twin scroll benefit or it would eliminate the efficiency advantage claimed for the N55.

I'm not even sure which I would prefer BMW use. The twin scroll concept seems interesting and is apparently already proven in other vehicles. But the N54 engine is well proven and I tend to like to see new things done for a year to two in cars just to make sure the issues have been addressed. In the end it will not matter even a tiny bit what I want anyway.

Jim