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      05-02-2018, 06:01 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
I totally disagree with your assessment that "Daniel drove into the back of Max"

In reality, it was Max who foolishly positioned himself in front of a faster car leaving it nowhere to go but into the back of him.


People have short memories. Where did the "2 move" rule come from?

It came about as a direct consequence to Max's immature F1 racing a few seasons ago. The 2-move rule is the Max rule.

I like watching Max race. A lot. Right up until the point where he loses his cool and goes native. If the rules cannot curb his over-exuberant enthusiasm I am deeply afraid that in future it might cost another driver his life.

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Yeah , Daniel has no brake pedal
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      05-02-2018, 06:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by N52UNED View Post
That's where Indy Car wins out with the Push To Pass idea, as it gives more of a fighting chance to pass where you normally can't.
I tried watching a modern Indy race and push to pass has become the focal point of the race. It was terrible imo. "Billy has more push to pass than Bobby, but Tommy has more push to pass than Billy...(ten seconds go by)...Now Bobby has more push to pass than Billy and Tommy...(ten more seconds)...Darrel tricked Billy, Bobby, and Tommy into using more push to pass wowzer..." Barely even exaggerating.
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      05-02-2018, 06:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
That's why I started watching again. It was boring as hell watching Merc win over and over.
Exactly ! I'm totally agree . After a few turns the Mercs drove out of sight , and the race was already over ! While I'm in the first place Red Bull fanboy, I have huge respect for Ferrari . They finally closed the gap with Merc !
It's very clear, Ferrari did a great job during the winterstop ! Ferrari is back in the game !
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      05-02-2018, 06:29 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Exactly ! I'm totally agree . After a few turns the Mercs drove out of sight , and the race was already over ! While I'm in the first place Red Bull fanboy, I have huge respect for Ferrari . They finally closed the gap with Merc !
It's very clear, Ferrari did a great job during the winterstop ! Ferrari is back in the game !
That along with Renault. I know it's early in the season, but I have not seen near the same amount of engine failures as years prior. It's nice to see McLaren getting points again
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      05-02-2018, 07:07 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
That along with Renault. I know it's early in the season, but I have not seen near the same amount of engine failures as years prior. It's nice to see McLaren getting points again
Yeah , but for the moment Renault has still lack of topspeed on the straights . It's there where they losing it , but the RB chassis is outstanding.
I heard RB is working on it pretty hard . And Horner hopes that the engine (upgrade) is ready for Catalunya .
RB worked last year already on it .They pushed extra HP , but they had non-stop cooling issues in the pre-tests.
Indeed. McLaren is also better than last year, but they are still running behind the facts with a lot of work to do .
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      05-02-2018, 07:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Yeah , but for the moment Renault has still lack of topspeed on the straights . It's there where they losing it , but the RB chassis is outstanding.
I heard RB is working on it pretty hard . And Horner hopes that the engine (upgrade) is ready for Catalunya .
RB worked last year already on it .They pushed extra HP , but they had non-stop cooling issues in the pre-tests.
Indeed. McLaren is also better than last year, but they are still running behind the facts with a lot of work to do .
True. They are lucky they have that superb chassis otherwise they would be much further down the grid.
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      05-02-2018, 07:29 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
True. They are lucky they have that superb chassis otherwise they would be much further down the grid.
Indeed , actually F1 is not fair . But we will see . And I can't wait for Catalunya !
Who is your fav. driver ?
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      05-02-2018, 07:39 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Indeed , actually F1 is not fair . But we will see . And I can't wait for Catalunya !
Who is your fav. driver ?
I have to say Vettel because I have a autographed Yas Marina shirt from him. Alonso is second.

What about you?
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      05-02-2018, 07:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
I have to say Vettel because I have a autographed Yas Marina shirt from him. Alonso is second.

What about you?
Nice . VET can be this year world champion .

You don't know my fav. driver ? That must be a joke ! check #2 => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1490984
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      05-02-2018, 08:01 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Nice . VET can be this year world champion .

You don't know my fav. driver ? That must be a joke ! check #2 => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1490984
Max is your favorite??

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      05-02-2018, 08:37 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Max is your favorite??
Yup....Can do no wrong Vestappen. Everyone else is crashing into him as they dont know how to brake, steer or move out of the way....

Respect the fan passion and support though. Am sure it will be rewarded with a world championship in his career..... although some greats never managed one eg. Montoya
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      05-03-2018, 12:24 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Yeah , Daniel has no brake pedal
Facetious much?

A car moving faster and that has just had the front downforce reduced (by the car moving in front of it) has a far reduced maximum braking capacity than the car in front. Racers know this implicitly. Max's double block made the accident inevitable. Daniel's move didn't make the collision inevitable. There was a gap, which according to the rules, should have remained a gap. Max's choice to block was the cause of the collision, not Daniel's speed or direction. He was the victim.

Now tell me that when you're driving down the highway at the speed limit, and another driver moves in front of you, inside your braking distance, going a lot slower, that the ensuing collision is your own fault.

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      05-03-2018, 04:23 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Yeah , Daniel has no brake pedal
Probably what Max said in the team debrief.

Fact is that Ric is the king of the late brakers. The master of brake-by-wire. It's no wonder he drinks out of his shoe -- those feet are pure magic.

But yeah, you go on believing your Golden Fish is blameless. That'll work too. For a while.
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      05-03-2018, 07:19 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
Now tell me that when you're driving down the highway at the speed limit, and another driver moves in front of you, inside your braking distance, going a lot slower, that the ensuing collision is your own fault.
Also, in your example, the driver just wants to continue going the speed limit; whereas in the case of RIC, he is making a pass. Braking for the car you're trying to pass isn't normally in the equation.
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      05-03-2018, 09:15 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by ksteckba View Post
I tried watching a modern Indy race and push to pass has become the focal point of the race. It was terrible imo. "Billy has more push to pass than Bobby, but Tommy has more push to pass than Billy...(ten seconds go by)...Now Bobby has more push to pass than Billy and Tommy...(ten more seconds)...Darrel tricked Billy, Bobby, and Tommy into using more push to pass wowzer..." Barely even exaggerating.
I can see your point ... I felt the same when they first implemented it, but after a while you see its merits; especially those who are able to save much of their PTP. Definitely a lot more interesting final laps than F1 has been giving us these past few years. In most cases, I can't say that the DRS really leads to more dramatic wheel to wheel racing ... more like more dramatic chasing.

However I will stay ... unlike F1 cars, Indy Cars aren't that much faster, and have the same aero ... so for Indy Car it's the alternative to F1's DRS> Again to me, the best thing would be to loosen the time constraints of the DRS and stop so much of this chasing and turn the DRS into something it was designed to do ... pass.
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      05-03-2018, 09:29 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Probably what Max said in the team debrief.

Fact is that Ric is the king of the late brakers. The master of brake-by-wire. It's no wonder he drinks out of his shoe -- those feet are pure magic.

But yeah, you go on believing your Golden Fish is blameless. That'll work too. For a while.
Pretty much right there. Danni Ricci has shown time after time he is likely the best breaking driver in F1. It's obvious that he didn't expect Max to slide back into the line ... by then he already hammered down making breaking futile at that distance. The amount of damage sustained from the impact alone clearly shows that; as guys get into the back of each other fairly often without that much impact.

Sure I'm an admitted Ricciardo "fan boy" ... but I like Max a lot, both as a driver and as a person; and root for him every race.

There's no denying that Max's slide back to the racing line caused the crash. If he stayed where he was after his racing move ... we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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      05-03-2018, 01:59 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
I totally disagree with your assessment that "Daniel drove into the back of Max"

In reality, it was Max who foolishly positioned himself in front of a faster car leaving it nowhere to go but into the back of him.


People have short memories. Where did the "2 move" rule come from?

It came about as a direct consequence to Max's immature F1 racing a few seasons ago. The 2-move rule is the Max rule.

I like watching Max race. A lot. Right up until the point where he loses his cool and goes native. If the rules cannot curb his over-exuberant enthusiasm I am deeply afraid that in future it might cost another driver his life.

Yours Aye

Mark H
Max made one VERY small move to the right and then a more purposeful move to the inside to protect the inside line. Was it two moves? FIA thinks it was two small moves - not a dramatic blocking move as we've seen in the past. If it was, then they would have put all the blame solely on him.
Yes I definitely remember the two move rule and Vettel did it last year a couple of times.

My assessment of Daniel losing downforce was correct according to Ross Brawn. This is the reason they're trying to change the aero package for next year. If they had the new package or an aero similar to Indy car, Daniel would have been able to get full braking or had grip to move to the outside again. That was the main point I was trying to make.

Brawn's assessment:
"But I would like to highlight a technical point. Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction blocking that line, the Australian became a passenger.

"The downforce loss experienced by Ricciardo in the wake of Verstappen's car would have made it unstoppable.

"We often think of downforce in cornering, but the impact the extra grip has in braking is huge.
"Take away that grip in braking and what happened on Sunday was inevitable."

Brawn said the incident was timely, as it highlighted the aerodynamic problems his team is trying to tackle with changes for 2021, but also the measures pushed through for next year by the F1 Commission this week.

"While this was a very severe example, it did highlight once more the need of finding a way to develop the rules to make the cars more raceable in these conditions," he said.

"The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission, sanctioned by the FIA World Motorsport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking for the 2019 season is definitely an important step.

"It's also important to note that the decision has been taken after an intense period of research into the FIA's proposals, which were made with the support of Formula 1 and conducted by a majority of the teams.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...-in-baku-clash
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      05-03-2018, 04:41 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
Max made one VERY small move to the right and then a more purposeful move to the inside to protect the inside line. Was it two moves? FIA thinks it was two small moves - not a dramatic blocking move as we've seen in the past. If it was, then they would have put all the blame solely on him.
Yes I definitely remember the two move rule and Vettel did it last year a couple of times.

My assessment of Daniel losing downforce was correct according to Ross Brawn. This is the reason they're trying to change the aero package for next year. If they had the new package or an aero similar to Indy car, Daniel would have been able to get full braking or had grip to move to the outside again. That was the main point I was trying to make.

Brawn's assessment:
"But I would like to highlight a technical point. Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction blocking that line, the Australian became a passenger.

"The downforce loss experienced by Ricciardo in the wake of Verstappen's car would have made it unstoppable.

"We often think of downforce in cornering, but the impact the extra grip has in braking is huge.
"Take away that grip in braking and what happened on Sunday was inevitable."

Brawn said the incident was timely, as it highlighted the aerodynamic problems his team is trying to tackle with changes for 2021, but also the measures pushed through for next year by the F1 Commission this week.

"While this was a very severe example, it did highlight once more the need of finding a way to develop the rules to make the cars more raceable in these conditions," he said.

"The decision of the Strategy Group and the F1 Commission, sanctioned by the FIA World Motorsport Council, to approve a number of aerodynamic modifications, aimed at promoting closer racing and more overtaking for the 2019 season is definitely an important step.

"It's also important to note that the decision has been taken after an intense period of research into the FIA's proposals, which were made with the support of Formula 1 and conducted by a majority of the teams.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...-in-baku-clash

I don't believe that an entire car width's move to the right, followed by more than a car width's move to the left are "small" moves.

Daniel aimed for a gap that was at least 1.5 car widths. Max closed that gap. As you say and as I already said before, it was Max's move that made the collision inevitable.
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      05-03-2018, 07:04 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Max is your favorite??
Who else ? Max is actually Belgian , just like me .
Max was only 17 , and he didn't even had his (private) driver license ! But he won a F1 race !
Who did this before ? This never happened ever before in the F1 race history , and that's one of the reasons why Max is my favorite .

What he showed last year in Brazil in the rain was beyond believe . Schumacher and Senna showed also some driver skills on the wet , but what Max showed in the rain was (no doubt) even from a higher level !
The greatests on earth said...It's on the wet where the driver skills really shine...And that we saw from Max !
And that's why , I can't wait to watch the next race *in the rain*
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      05-03-2018, 07:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Probably what Max said in the team debrief.

Fact is that Ric is the king of the late brakers. The master of brake-by-wire. It's no wonder he drinks out of his shoe -- those feet are pure magic.

But yeah, you go on believing your Golden Fish is blameless. That'll work too. For a while.
No . Horner said last season that Max is actually a dog with a bone on the track. So...Don't take his bone !

Note : My statement is no joke .
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      05-03-2018, 07:34 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
Facetious much?

A car moving faster and that has just had the front downforce reduced (by the car moving in front of it) has a far reduced maximum braking capacity than the car in front. Racers know this implicitly. Max's double block made the accident inevitable. Daniel's move didn't make the collision inevitable. There was a gap, which according to the rules, should have remained a gap. Max's choice to block was the cause of the collision, not Daniel's speed or direction. He was the victim.

Now tell me that when you're driving down the highway at the speed limit, and another driver moves in front of you, inside your braking distance, going a lot slower, that the ensuing collision is your own fault.

Yours Aye

Mark H
You are right about the reduced downforce . And that was because Daniel was in Max his slipstream . But by the reduced downforce of the slipstream , he had lack of grip from his front tires and his brakes locked up like crazy !
That's why we can see all the smoke from hell coming from his brakes BEFORE the collision , and before he SLIDED into Max.

You guys seem also to forget , that they came from the straight at topspeed and the apex was VERY NEAR (left 90 turn) was only 100 meters in front of them !
This was not the right place , and not the right moment to try something like an overtake !
*IF* Daniel could pass Max . He was not able to make it , at that speed through the left turn .

AMEN !
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Last edited by ///M Power-Belgium; 05-03-2018 at 07:41 PM..
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      05-03-2018, 07:40 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Probably what Max said in the team debrief.

Fact is that Ric is the king of the late brakers. The master of brake-by-wire. It's no wonder he drinks out of his shoe -- those feet are pure magic.

But yeah, you go on believing your Golden Fish is blameless. That'll work too. For a while.
*Golden Fish* is the keyword in your statement . Max really loves water on the track .
Remember last year , the race in Brazil (Interlagos) That was pretty wet !
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