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      09-27-2007, 03:03 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post

My A4's ECU simply increases the fuel flow to increase volume to attain the boost targets to make up for the lower BTU's per volume of ethanol. As long as I stay within the flow rate capacity of my fuel system, I can generate around the same horsepower with an ethanol mix as I can generate with 100% gas of the same octane. I simply have to flow more fuel.
The hijacker is correct. The problem with ethanol is some engine's injectors will max out, then you have too little fuel, too much air, and BOOM.
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      09-27-2007, 04:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ducati View Post
The hijacker is correct. The problem with ethanol is some engine's injectors will max out, then you have too little fuel, too much air, and BOOM.
Yep. If you were running say, E60 or E70 you would really have to worry about maxing out the injectors. Running straight E85 is just begging for a slow drive home in limp mode.

But the point is that on an engine that is already designed to run E10, there really should be enough leeway in the design specifications of the fuel system's fuel volume ceiling to pump enough gas to make up for the additional 10% of ethanol. A well designed fuel system should never run at full max volume capacity under even the most aggressive driving. There should be a buffer between the designed max fuel delivery volume and the maximum amount of fuel requested by the ECU according to the manufacture's fuel maps. Running E20 just pushes flows up towards that ceiling. We're talking low ethanol blends, not high ethanol blends.

Every US car currently has to adjust for any mix between straight gas to E10 ethanol. (Different states mandate different versions of E10 -- E10 can actually be as low as just E5.7 and it is still labeled E10). There is already an inherent ability for ECU's in modern cars to adjust for variable amounts of ethanol in fuel. Going up towards E20 just takes advantage of the ECU's existing ability to adjust for variable amounts of ethanol.

Knock with low ethanol blends just isn't an issue. In fact, ethanol has some properties in low ethanol blends that reduces the chance of knock.

"The higher ethanol latent heat vaporization increases the engine overall efficiency due to the reduction of heat loss, and reduces the engine tendency to knock;"
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/32206.pdf
(this study is quite a bit out of date - but it is still a fairly good source of information.)

We're talking about a ~3.5% change in stoichiometric between E10 and E20, which is less than the ~7% difference between stoichiometric rich and stoichiometric lean in straight gas. Modern vehicles just shouldn't have a problem with E20 unless they have a lousy design in the first place that can't correct properly for normal every day variances --- like changes in temperature and humidity, or oxygenating fuel additives like MTBE or 10% ethanol, or octane variances, or altitude.

Sorry, no BOOM.
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      09-27-2007, 05:08 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Running straight E85 is just begging for a slow drive home in limp mode.

We're talking about a 3.5% change in stoichiometric between E10 and E20, which is less than the difference between stoichiometric rich and stoichiometric lean in straight gas. Modern vehicles just shouldn't have a problem with E20 unless they have a lousy design in the first place that can't correct properly for normal every day variances --- like changes in temperature and humidity, or oxygenating fuel additives like MTBE or 10% ethanol, or octane variances, or altitude.

Sorry, no BOOM.
You would have more to worry about than a slow limp home, in a car not designed for E85.

Much of those reasons is why i would not recommend an E20 blend. There are people that have had problems with a E15 blend. There is no telling how >E10 is going to effect the HPFP(hell, E10 might even be the cause of the failures). Remember that ethanol is conductive unlike gasoline. Can you imagine blowing(literally into flames) up your 335i cuz of a custom blend? It would be a $40k fireworks display!

I'm pretty sure they fazed out MTBE..

I think ideally he should be using iso-octane to blend. Its the safest IMO.
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      09-27-2007, 05:26 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zba857 View Post
You would have more to worry about than a slow limp home, in a car not designed for E85.

Much of those reasons is why i would not recommend an E20 blend. There are people that have had problems with a E15 blend. There is no telling how >E10 is going to effect the HPFP(hell, E10 might even be the cause of the failures). Remember that ethanol is conductive unlike gasoline. Can you imagine blowing(literally into flames) up your 335i cuz of a custom blend? It would be a $40k fireworks display!

I'm pretty sure they fazed out MTBE..

I think ideally he should be using iso-octane to blend. Its the safest IMO.
Now you are just making up crap. Let me get this straight, you are worried about blowing up a car because ethanol is CONDUCTIVE? So it's more conductive than gas. So what? If 20% ethanol in fuel makes cars blow up due to increased conductivity, then 85% ethanol in fuel should really be setting cars ablaze. Are you claiming that there are a bunch of E85 FlexFuel vehicles spontaneously blowing up? Where are all the Ethanol refineries bursting into flames? Get real.

And who is having problems with E15 blend? E15 isn't sold anywhere in the world that I know of. Brazil is the only country selling anything other than E10 and E85. They have E22 and E24, not E15, and they are reporting a remarkable LACK of problems. No one is reporting cars blowing up in Brazil.

They phazed out MTBE, but modern cars are STILL designed to adjust to the stuff if they run into it. That's the point. Modern cars are smarter than pre-1990's cars.

And where in the hell exactly do you think he would find iso-octane in Ecuador? Pull up to his local gas refinery and have them top up his tank? Give me a break.

go bother someone on some other board about 0-60 foot times. I'm not going to play that game here on this board.
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      09-27-2007, 06:26 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Now you are just making up crap. Let me get this straight, you are worried about blowing up a car because ethanol is CONDUCTIVE? So it's more conductive than gas. So what? Are you claiming that there are a bunch of E85 FlexFuel vehicles spontaneously blowing up? Where are all the Ethanol refineries bursting into flames?
Lol re-read my post i am talking about non flexfuel cars. ie: 335i

Quote:
And who is having problems with E15 blend? E15 isn't sold anywhere in the world that I know of. Brazil is the only country selling anything other than E10 and E85. They have E22 and E24, not E15, and they are reporting a remarkable LACK of problems. No one is reporting cars blowing up in Brazil.
Just because it doesn't come out of a pump doesn't mean you can't make E15. That is kinda what this thread is about isn't it? People will do anything to save a little money and sometimes they attempt it without doing the proper ammount of research.

The blowing up point that i made was refering to the HPFP. I havn't seen a scematic nor have i taken one apart so i don't know if the fuel could be exposed to current like it can for in-tank pumps.

Do you know some reasons why US limited the ethanol precentage in their gas? Ethanol is very caustic and tends to eat up rubber, lines, injectors, fuel pumps, etc. Unless your car is designed for ethanol and/or has viton seals/teflon lines, etc. I would not continually use it in any greater concentrations than 10%.
Quote:
And where in the hell exactly do you think he would find iso-octane in Ecuador? Pull up to his local gas refinery and have them top up his tank? Give me a break.
He is obviouslly not dealing with ideal conditions. All due respect, we do not live in Ecuador, so we do not know what he is able to get. The reason i failed to mention it untill now was because i realized its probability.
Quote:
go bother someone on some other board about 0-60 foot times. I'm not going to play that game here on this board.
Heh.. If i am bothering you that much then i suggest you put me on your ignore list because I am not going anywhere.

The 'game' i am playing is the information one. I am giving the asked information as unbiased as possible. I have no other motive besides that and I am not imposing a desired effect because it is something I do.

Out of respect of the OP If you wish to further this discussion i suggest you PM me.
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      09-27-2007, 06:31 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by zba857 View Post
Heh.. If i am bothering you that much then i suggest you put me on your ignore list because I am not going anywhere.
best piece of advice you've ever posted.

Done.
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      09-27-2007, 07:22 PM   #51
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We don't know the effect of anything beyond an E10 blend on the direct fuel injection system (and we should be pretty confident that BMW has tested the N54 with the E10 blends).

One place to check to see if E85 will work in a direct injection engine would be GM's turbocharged direct injected engines in the Sky and Solstice. GM seems to be pushing E85 and they may know the impact.

I just can't imagine the amount of differences between an almost pure alky mixture and gasoline. I know what the impacts are in racing engines - the pure methanol engines have to be 'pickled' if they were going to be inactive for an extended period. Offy's converted to run on gas overheated badly, the Hilborn injectors in older Offy's we're barely controlled leaks (and what the heck is the stoichiometric # w/ alky?). Methanol/Ethanol (as we all know) has a lower caloric density but does have a cooling impact on the charge when vaporized.

Big software rewrites probably needed right off-the-bat and are the injectors able to flow the volume required. Are the injector nozzles (the piezo devices that change shape through voltage differences) capable of providing a proper spray pattern? Too many variables for a college edumacated ignoramus like me.

Oh, and BTW, we are targeted to use E85 as our alky in the US as opposed to the E100 available in Brazil becasue alky has crappy cold start characteristics. We need the 15% gasoline to get started in the cold.

FWIW, here's a blurb on 'pickling' a Cosworth engine (stolen from this website):
"Fuel Control: The fuel control used on the XD is the same as used on the XF and Cosworth's Indy motor. The XD uses sixteen primary Bosch Motorsport injectors, two per cylinder, and four side feed Bosch injectors arranged in a ring, called the PCI, at the turbo compressor inlet. The compressor inlet injectors serve to cool the incoming mixture as it is compressed. All injectors are driven directly by the ECU. Note: the PCI injectors were changed from the early XBs to the later XBs, XD, XF, and XFE. See the note on PCI Injectors for an explanation.

Fuel rail pressure is 4 Bar or approximately 60 psi in the vintage configuration. There are provisions on the engine for changing the fuel pressure while the engine is running, however, Cosworth did not feel it was appropriate to provide this technology to the vintage community. Fuel is supplied by a mechanical fuel pump located in the fuel cell. The pump is driven directly from the XD's right side scavenge pumps by a couple of inch long square drive quill. The XD fuel system must be purged of corrosive methanol after each use (weekend). This is done by disconnecting the feed from the fuel cell and looping the pressure side back to the return. The engine supply and return is then connected to a separate "pickle" tank that supplies gasoline under pressure and provides a dump can for returning methanol from the engine's fuel rail. The operator can pick an ECU program with a pickle map that fires the PCI injectors at low rpm while leaning the mixture significantly from that required running methanol. One of the pleasant benefits of the XD is that the fuel map selector on the steering wheel can be set such that one of the settings is a pickle map. The dash is then told that ECU is in pickle mode so that an alarm will warn the driver if he tries to drive off in pickle mode.

On start-up of a pickled engine, the fuel must be removed from the loop before the engine is connected to the fuel cell. The cell is made of natural rubber to resist Methanol and will not tolerate Gasoline. This de-pickling is done simply by connecting the fuel cell's pressure output to the XD's inlet, routing the XD's outlet to a separate catch can then starting the engine. Once you have clear methanol entering the catch can, you can kill the engine and connect the XD's return to the fuel cell. All this is worth the ability to run a turbocharged engine at these kinds of output without the need for a heavy intercooler."
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      09-27-2007, 08:01 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atr_hugo View Post
We don't know the effect of anything beyond an E10 blend on the direct fuel injection system (and we should be pretty confident that BMW has tested the N54 with the E10 blends).

One place to check to see if E85 will work in a direct injection engine would be GM's turbocharged direct injected engines in the Sky and Solstice. GM seems to be pushing E85 and they may know the impact.

I just can't imagine the amount of differences between an almost pure alky mixture and gasoline. I know what the impacts are in racing engines - the pure methanol engines have to be 'pickled' if they were going to be inactive for an extended period. Offy's converted to run on gas overheated badly, the Hilborn injectors in older Offy's we're barely controlled leaks (and what the heck is the stoichiometric # w/ alky?). Methanol/Ethanol (as we all know) has a lower caloric density but does have a cooling impact on the charge when vaporized.

Big software rewrites probably needed right off-the-bat and are the injectors able to flow the volume required. Are the injector nozzles (the piezo devices that change shape through voltage differences) capable of providing a proper spray pattern? Too many variables for a college edumacated ignoramus like me.

Oh, and BTW, we are using E85 in the US as opposed to the E100 available in Brazil becasue alky has crappy cold start characteristics. We need the 15% gasoline to get started in the cold.


Methanol and E85 Ethanol are not the same. Corrosive properties are different. Stoich is different. Miscibility is different.

Talking about Methanol and E85 Ethanol is if they were interchangeable is like talking about regular gas and propane as if they were the same. It just isn't the case.

E85 cars run every mix of ethanol from straight gas to pure E85 using the exact same injectors, so that isn't a big issue.

There are studies out there for E20, both here and abroad. And it has been put into practice in Brazil for years and years. We do have some information about what to expect. Here is one study:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/32206.pdf

The modern formulation of E85 includes lubricants and corrosion inhibitors that have addressed and resolved many of the issues that have been found in research such as this.


I think we've gone just about as far as we can with the Ethanol discussion in this thread. I don't want to completely get off-topic and get in the way of midlife's thread.

I HEREBY OFFICIALLY END THIS THREAD HIJACKING. PLEASE RETURN TO YOUR NORMAL THREAD OPERATION.
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      09-28-2007, 01:21 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Done.
:frown: tis a shame...


Quote:
Originally Posted by atr_hugo
"Fuel Control: The fuel control used on the XD is the same as used on the XF and Cosworth's Indy motor. The XD uses sixteen primary Bosch Motorsport injectors, two per cylinder, and four side feed Bosch injectors arranged in a ring, called the PCI, at the turbo compressor inlet. The compressor inlet injectors serve to cool the incoming mixture as it is compressed. All injectors are driven directly by the ECU. Note: the PCI injectors were changed from the early XBs to the later XBs, XD, XF, and XFE. See the note on PCI Injectors for an explanation.
Interesting stuff!!:w00t:
I never thought of injecting meth pre-turbo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon
I HEREBY OFFICIALLY END THIS THREAD HIJACKING.
Oh my... Its official!! Run for cover! (too bad he can't read this )


MIDLIFE!

Hugo brought up another good option. Meth injection is very good at suppressing knock. It would take more monitoring/precision but is very viable. Also it isn't an option unless you have a tuner w/BMW Meth injection experience:frown: The aftermarket for the 335i is a little behind but by the time you break in your car this might be an option. Keep us posted.

edit: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86258
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      09-28-2007, 09:06 AM   #54
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Let's get started......

Quote:
Originally Posted by zba857 View Post
:frown: tis a shame...




Interesting stuff!!:w00t:
I never thought of injecting meth pre-turbo...



Oh my... Its official!! Run for cover! (too bad he can't read this )


MIDLIFE!

Hugo brought up another good option. Meth injection is very good at suppressing knock. It would take more monitoring/precision but is very viable. Also it isn't an option unless you have a tuner w/BMW Meth injection experience:frown: The aftermarket for the 335i is a little behind but by the time you break in your car this might be an option. Keep us posted.

edit: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86258
hey guys im back.... glad i missed all the action (verbal sparring).

my car will be a semi daily driver, i am not experienced, AND there is not much technical know how or mod support here in quito. therefore i would stay away from meth injection or anything i cannot do reasonably easy or safely MYSELF.

i think if i can safely boost my 89 octane gas first then maybe i can be "off to the races" somewhat:

since i am still awaiting word on if the 89 octane here is RON or MON, maybe i can do some preliminary calculations now, to see if toluene is even feasible here:

1/ the octane here is 89
a/ if it is octane 89 MON, that is great.
does anyone know what 89 MON is equivilant to in the
U.S. (U.S. is RON + MON divided by 2)

b/ if this sh*t gas here is RON
does anyone here know what 89 RON is
equivilant to in the U.S. ?

thanks
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      09-28-2007, 09:51 AM   #55
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IRRC, U.S. uses MON octane ratings.
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      09-28-2007, 03:46 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
IRRC, U.S. uses MON octane ratings.
RON + MON
-----------
2

Or AKI is what we use in the USA.

One thing not mentioned yet us Toluene is a carcinogen. Do be careful with these boosters, midlife. Wear gloves, protect your lungs, etc.
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      09-28-2007, 04:10 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
IRRC, U.S. uses MON octane ratings.
1/ are you sure? i have read that U.S. (i think in more than one place) U.S. uses the average of RON and MON =
(RON + MON) divided by two.

2/ Can someone verify the following formula for mixing. note that we are ASSUMING the 89 octane here is MON, and this MON is same as U.S. :

335 tank capacity: 13.9 gallons (ASSUME 13 GALLONS)
toluene octane is 114 (not sure if this is MON or mon/ron avereage).

12 gallons x 89(octane) = 1068.
1.3 gallons x 114(octane) = 148.2
1216.2 divided by 13 gallons

= 93.5 is the new octane

if the above assumptions and formula are correct, i only have to add 1.3 gallons of toluene per tanK:
if i use a little good lubricant (lucas, marvel) with each toluene pour: IS THIS SAFE FOR MY MOTOR & FUEL STYSEM on a regular basis?

If yes, how much of this lubricant do i have to add with each 1.3 gallon toluene pour?

.....BUT IF MY 89 OCTANE HERE IS RON, what is that the equivalant to in MON?

thanks
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      09-28-2007, 04:37 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducati View Post
RON + MON
-----------
2

Or AKI is what we use in the USA...
OK, thanks for that correction.
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      09-28-2007, 05:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducati View Post
RON + MON
-----------
2

Or AKI is what we use in the USA.

One thing not mentioned yet us Toluene is a carcinogen. Do be careful with these boosters, midlife. Wear gloves, protect your lungs, etc.
in light of this post,
please disregard my post #57.......BUT
CAN SOMEONE HELP ME OUT ON MY (now edited) post #54?

thanks
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      09-28-2007, 06:19 PM   #60
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You are asking a lot of questions that have already been answered. What is it specifically you are asking.
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      09-28-2007, 06:42 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zba857 View Post
You are asking a lot of questions that have already been answered. What is it specifically you are asking.

sorry if my posts have not been that clear:

In the U.S., octance is rated using:
(RON + MON) divided by 2

I have inquiries out, but do not yet know if the 89 octane here is RON or MON:


1/ IF the octane here in Ecuador is 89 MON, does anyone know what this 89 MON is equivilant to in U.S. octane ?

2/ secondly, IF the gas here is 89 RON, can you tell me what this 89 RON is equivilant to in U.S. octane ?

thanks
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      09-28-2007, 06:49 PM   #62
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Try this website: http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/R...RONMONPON.html

As far as your particular issue with fuel in Ecuador - I would suggest seeking professional opinions, such as from a mechanic you trust, above and beyond what you're getting from an internet message board.
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      09-28-2007, 07:39 PM   #63
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From Wikipedia
Quote:
Measurement methods

The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel through a specific test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing these results with those for mixtures of isooctane and n-heptane.
There is another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON) or the aviation lean octane rating, which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON. Normally fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.
In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in the United States, Canada and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, this means that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91-92 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "regular", equivalent to 90-91 US (R+M)/2, and even deliver 98 (RON) or 100 (RON).
The octane rating may also be a "trade name", with the actual figure being higher than the nominal rating.[citation needed]
It is possible for a fuel to have a RON greater than 100, because isooctane is not the most knock-resistant substance available. Racing fuels, straight ethanol, AvGas and liquified petroleum gas (LPG) typically have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher - ethanol's RON is 107 (MON 89, AKI 98) reference[2]. Typical "octane booster" additives include tetra-ethyl lead and toluene. Tetra-ethyl lead is easily decomposed to its component radicals, which react with the radicals from the fuel and oxygen that would start the combustion, thereby delaying ignition. This is why leaded gasoline has a higher octane rating than unleaded.
You should see your rating designation directly on your pump...
If you have MON you have no worries.
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      09-28-2007, 09:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atr_hugo View Post
Try this website: http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/R...RONMONPON.html

As far as your particular issue with fuel in Ecuador - I would suggest seeking professional opinions, such as from a mechanic you trust, above and beyond what you're getting from an internet message board.
good sugestion, but finding "professional" help would be difficult here.

i have been here about 4 years, and finished a sucessful project. i know "professional" lawyers, archetects, etc. but am unfamiliar with the (probably extremely small) modding community here. my brother in law is a G.Motors, U.S. trained mechanic - probably one of the better ones here: he has little clue about the 335 or the N54 or turbos.

this is not the states where u can find good mechanics, car enthusiats, and tuners with not that much trouble. this is a developing country! (you know, the pretty poor, the BMW and mercedes crowd - but not much in between).

believe it or not, my 335 is only the 2nd one in this whole country - and the first cabrio! not much high end modding here that i know of...but i am looking.

i will continue to look, but at least for a while, i would rather rely on the kwowledgable forum members and my common sense.
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      09-28-2007, 09:20 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zba857 View Post
From Wikipedia
You should see your rating designation directly on your pump...
If you have MON you have no worries.
you guys have to visit developing countries more often:

do you think they actually post octane ratings at gasoline stations here?
of course they don't.

WHY you might ask? because that would MAKE SENSE !

actually, i tease this country that i have since adopted alot.
but trust me, even though this place lacks certain things like good gasoline, fast cars, road manners, common sense, and many other things you guys take for granted in the good ol U.S.; note that the sun is ALWAYS shinning, and i pay my full time maid here very well - and she makes $200 a MONTH.

back on topic: thanks alot for that very helpful info.
i am not trying to be clever, but i noticed it was wikipedia.
can i assume that to the best of your knowledge, that this information is correct; OR do you know for sure it is correct? (maybe i have been in ecuador too long).
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      09-29-2007, 03:52 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
do you think they actually post octane ratings at gasoline stations here?
I'm just saying that sometimes people don't always realize what's under their noses. It's worth a second look?

Quote:
back on topic: thanks alot for that very helpful info.
i am not trying to be clever, but i noticed it was wikipedia.
can i assume that to the best of your knowledge, that this information is correct; OR do you know for sure it is correct? (maybe i have been in ecuador too long).
funny you mention that.. I noticed some inconsistencies between wiki and the link Hugo posted. You got some time i suggest you read up on this stuff. Here's a few good links. Maybe you could order a few books on it?

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://science.howstuffworks.com/gasoline.htm
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthi...a070401a_2.htm
http://www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/octane-rating-1
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