E82 135i "build" by JD

[JD75]

Originally Posted by Orlin

that dyno does seem unusually high for pretty much a tune only car...if you dont have dps then you must have got a freak, well done.

Ummm, "freak" maybe.

I actually prefer the term, "Wednesday motor", haha.

All the dyno pulls associated with the fitment of the PROcede, were done by Adrian himself.

However Peter had already set the car up on the dyno, in preparation for Adrian.

He made of a point of setting the vehicle up, as close as possible to the way it was on the previous Friday night.

There is a difference in the way the two graphs are plotted.

That is because the first graph variables were configured by Peter and Dale, the second was by Adrian himself.

Given that the vehicle has a 191.9 rwkw baseline, I had predicted I would see a Map 2 figure of 235-245 rwkw.

On the day when it ripped the 250.3 rwkw figure, I was like...

Ahhh, Adrian that was a 250 pull, yeah?

His response was YES, "strong motor".

He went on to say, he has seen a "tune" only vehicle make in excess of 240 rwkw, however it's not very common at all.

[JD75]

Originally Posted by BMW86

The 2nd dyno is almost what Kenny got with Procede + FBO and it's using the same dyno. Maybe the intake really is worth a good 15kw or so

I will be doing a TRUE comparison of the "stock" factory intake and the Dinan CAI.

All I would have to do, is perform say 2 dyno pulls as is.

Then remove the Dinan airbox lid and reinstall the factory airbox lid.

This would defeat the additional inlet air path and return the volume of the airbox to its stock size.

Perform another 2 pulls pull within say 10 minutes, following a proper cool down.

As a result all 4 dyno pulls, would be under the EXACT same conditions (+ or -).

That's it, simple in concept.

However as I mentioned earlier, the Dinan CF lid is a prick to install and I suspect Dale would have to remove the entire airbox assembly once again, just to refit the lid.

I will most definitely be doing this at a later date, but there are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

[JD75]

Originally Posted by mattyv

Nice work, JD. Any suspension mods planned? I'm looking forward to seeing how your project pans out

Cheers mate.

I have a set of KW Variant 2 coilovers to install, perhaps this week.

I also have a M3 E93 front sway bar on the way, from the States.

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

My car also has AR downpipes.

This is an awesome opportunity to increase learning about the upgrade path for these cars. Having two 135s at the same workshop with numerous dyno at different configurations .. gold!

Yes, I said turbo back exhaust not downpipe back exhaust I agree, an awesome opportunity to learn more about these cars.

Do you have anymore mods planned Kenny? It would be good if you could both run your cars on the same dyno on the same day.

Originally Posted by JD75

I will be doing a TRUE comparison of the "stock" factory intake and the Dinan CAI.

All I would have to do, is perform say 2 dyno pulls as is.

Then remove the Dinan airbox lid and reinstall the factory airbox lid.

This would defeat the additional inlet air path and return the volume of the airbox to its stock size.

Perform another 2 pulls pull within say 10 minutes, following a proper cool down.

As a result all 4 dyno pulls, would be under the EXACT same conditions (+ or -).

That's it, simple in concept.

However as I mentioned earlier, the Dinan CF lid is a prick to install and I suspect Dale would have to remove the entire airbox assembly once again, just to refit the lid.

I will most definitely be doing this at a later date, but there are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Yes that would be cool but I agree, not absolutely necessary considering you have much bigger plans. What does it sound like anyway?

Btw, I think the HPF FMIC is the best fmic on the market, good choice.

I look forward to seeing big numbers from your car

[MrBlonde]

Vinney yes my 135 is often at Advan for this or that. I will be taking it there to get the P3 gauge installed and a couple of other minor things.

I'm happy to do some same day dyno runs with Justin's car there if there's some data point we can lock down. It's a good opportunity to have two cars in the community at the same workshop and the same dyno machine.

[TimMc]

Looks good!

I'm particularly interested in;
- Stett Performance stage 2 oil cooler kit with 82 degrees Celsius thermostat option.
So the cooler kit provides a thermostat that bypasses the cooler to allow the engine to heat up to 82 degrees before opening? (sounds good).

- The transmission oil was replaced with Redline D4 ATF at around 11,500 km.
Did this improve the shift action?

Cheers, Tim.

[JD75]

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

My car also has AR downpipes.

This is an awesome opportunity to increase learning about the upgrade path for these cars. Having two 135s at the same workshop with numerous dyno at different configurations .. gold!

So true Kenny, "that's gold baby".

There is sooo much BS on the forums at times.

I am more than happy to thoroughly document the build, in an effort to further reduce heresay and speculative recommendations, made from so called "butt dynos", haha.

[JD75]

"I think you'll really be impressed with the meth installed, they go very hard with it running. Kenny's really impressed me when I took it for a strap."

Ya, I certainly hope so Ben.

If all goes to plan, I will have the 1'er on the dyno again come Thursday night, but this time we will be spraying Meth, hehe.

I will be going with a 50/50 ratio of Methanol and distilled water.

I will ask Adrian to set the Meth map boost target to 15.5 psi, but only once we have confirmed that Meth kit is functioning correctly and the flow rate is good.

The Coolingmist kit is a quality kit and the CM7 injectors, are apparently capable of super fine atomization.

However with the use of two injectors there will be a relative pressure drop at each outlet, in comparison to what psi you would obtain from a single injector.

Some of the big boys in the US are starting to experiment with a dual nozzle, dual pump set up, that sounds cool.

However it's early days with that configuration, so there is no real data as yet, to suggest the second pump connected in parallel is beneficial, but certainly something to think about at a later date.

[JD75]

Originally Posted by BMW86

Yes, I said turbo back exhaust not downpipe back exhaust I agree, an awesome opportunity to learn more about these cars.

Do you have anymore mods planned Kenny? It would be good if you could both run your cars on the same dyno on the same day.



Yes that would be cool but I agree, not absolutely necessary considering you have much bigger plans. What does it sound like anyway?

Btw, I think the HPF FMIC is the best fmic on the market, good choice.

I look forward to seeing big numbers from your car

Sorry mate, I apologize but I have forgotten your name.

The additional K&N conical filter that is attached to the carbon fiber snorkel, is for the most part barely audible.

There are far louder and stranger noises coming from the Synapse BOV, haha.

However if you do not wish to hear the BOV, careful right foot modulation will take care of that.

Thanks for the props on the HPF intercooler.

Yes, it should be a very good performer.

Notably its large volume is a result of increased depth, not so much height.

As such airflow through the radiator core is not overly compromised.

I picked up an anodized version in black, which retains the factory circlips, from a Lutz Performance Automotive GB.

It was a steal, well almost.

The HPF intercooler will be going on, after the exhaust mods.

[BBK]

Originally Posted by JD75

All the dyno pulls associated with the fitment of the PROcede, were done by Adrian himself.

There is a difference in the way the two graphs are plotted.

That is because the first graph variables were configured by Peter and Dale, the second was by Adrian himself.
.

Are you saying what it sounds like you're saying? ie- Adrian somehow set it up to read more power than actual?


On the other hand, with all the mods done by Kenny, I would have thought he would make more power than what his dyno suggests. Hasn't someone on here with just JB downpipes and FMIC made 280+rwkw?

[JD75]

"Are you saying what it sounds like you're saying? ie- Adrian somehow set it up to read more power than actual?"

Dude, most certainly not, lol.

I am not one to fudge anything!

I like to do things properly, the first time.

For that matter, I am quite certain Adrian would not be in the habit of inflating dyno figures either.

When I refer to dyno "graph variables", I am talking about the value of the increments on the graph, used to plot road speed, boost, AFR etc. against horsepower.

Changing the above does not alter the true value of the parameters, just the way in which one must interpret them.

[JD75]

Originally Posted by BBK

On the other hand, with all the mods done by Kenny, I would have thought he would make more power than what his dyno suggests. Hasn't someone on here with just JB downpipes and FMIC made 280+rwkw?

IIRC, Kenny put down 291 rwkw with full bolt-ons and Meth, but without the use of race gas.

That is a very substantial number.

If you were to calculate crank power, based on a supposed drivetrain loss of 15%, you are talking about 343 kw at the engine.

However what is most important to note, is the "delta" obtained from all of the modifications, rather than the outright figure.

I think Kenny gained a little over 100 rwkw, from his "stock" baseline reading.

[adrian@vishnu]

Hi Guys,

Thanks Justin for posting this info up to benefit all. There is often glory runs posted up here, but not often people take the time to detail which mods are most effective.

For the record, I arrived to fit the Procede, and did so, and at the time Peter was out testing a vehicle. I have used his dyno before, and wanted to test the Procede to make sure everything was good before I left, so I did some runs (I have alot of experience on these dynos having done several thousand dyno runs on several dyno dynamics dynos around Sydney). I did not tie the car down as it was on the dyno when I got there. I did not change any dyno settings except to change the units to metric (kW) from imperial (hp), and to scale the kW readings to fit on the page in the way I normally do. Nothing that would effect the actual power output was adjusted. I tend to start dyno runs at higher RPM then Peter/Dale, which maye give an extra kW or 2 at peak as the FMIC is cooler having been run for less time at peak power... but would certainly be well under 5kW difference.

The power output was about 10-15kW up on what I expected for a stock car with Procede. This could be several factors. One could be that the engine is a good'n. Another could be the air box. Also, I have not personally dynoed the latest DIC maps before this, and US testing has shown more consistency at high power levels with the latest maps. Either way I was pleasantly surprised by the results... so much so that I wanted to do a valet map run just to be sure that the car in stock pass through mode was not reading high which would indicate that the dyno was reading high. But the valet run was exactly in line with my expectations, so I can only conclude the car is making very good power..... Looking forward to squirting some meth and downpipes. I suspect we should pip over 300 ATW. For that matter, I think with the latest maps and some tweaking that Kenny could also... but it would certainly be interesting to try a different intake on Kenny's car just to see what happens... I have some Dual cones just to dyno for testing if you like Kenny!!??

Adrian

[Orlin]

lol we all know how Kenny feels about DCI's...hopefully he does it though as I would love to see the results.

[MrBlonde]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

..
I suspect we should pip over 300 ATW. For that matter, I think with the latest maps and some tweaking that Kenny could also... but it would certainly be interesting to try a different intake on Kenny's car just to see what happens... I have some Dual cones just to dyno for testing if you like Kenny!!??
..

Adrian, yeah I will upgrade to the latest general release maps. I'm happy to do a back to back dyno run with stock intake and DCI to get some more data.

What the experience would be like driving in Sydney with DCI (versus the peak power on a dyno machine) I am not sure.

I spoke to Dale and Peter about the difference in dyno results between my car and Justin's and they made a few comments.

Peter said that Dyno Dynamics recommended he did not need to have the machine recalibrated following the replacement of damaged computer equipment from the lightning strike.

He also said that the dyno on my car was done in summer heat (~ 40 degrees in dyno cell) and Justin's car was recently (~ 22 degrees). Obviously the ambient air temperatures makes a big difference in the dyno figures produced. In Peter's opinion, that would be enough to explain the difference seen.

In any case Peter thought it would be a good idea to have a Sydney 135 dyno day at the appropriate time, perhaps when Justin's car has reached a logical end point in it's evolution when we can get both cars on the dyno in the same day and compare.

All other 135 owners would be welcome to come and get their whip dynoed on the same day for a small fee. I'll start a separate thread closer to the time if anyone is interested.

The Dyno Dynamics machine has a "shootout" mode that locks down the variables to provide a "comparable" result. Advan don't usually use that mode because the ramp rate in shootout mode places about double the strain on the car's engine. But shootout mode can be used if so desired. If all cars dyno on the same day then, for comparison purposes with those cars, there is no need for shootout mode.

[MrBlonde]

Originally Posted by Orlin

lol we all know how Kenny feels about DCI's...hopefully he does it though as I would love to see the results.

Orly I would be open to testing the car out with stock intake and with DCI. As I said above the experience of the car's performance actually driving the streets of Sydney in our weather might give more realistic results.

I am always open to be shown more information or learn something new.

[adrian@vishnu]

DCI is easy to fit. We could do it for testing very easily. If we remove the cowling, and then do say 3 dyno runs with stock intake. We can then change to DCI in about 5-10 minutes, and do 3 runs with DCI. On a dyno, you would see better gains from DCI then on street. They will flow better, and because the bonnet is up, they tend to not be effected by hot air as much. I am sure we would see some gains... but whether that translates to the road is unknown...

Not sure how much you know about the dynos, but the electronics within the dyno would not have been replaced. It is just the PC. The bed itself is calibrated by adjusting mechanicals in the dyno. As long as the transducer was not replaced, it will produce the same signal as before. The PC is really only an interface to the dyno. Replacing it should not effect any readings.

Air temps will make a difference for sure to the results. The standard correction factors are aimed at NA cars... based just on air density changes to temperature. Turbo vehicles heat the air up in the turbo and then cool it down with FMIC, so the actual effect on turbo power can vary from NA cars. What is more important is where the probe is placed. I normally leave the probe off the car reading the ambient temp in the room. I personally think this is a more fair comparison. Some dyno operators put the probe in the intake system. The problem I have with this is that a car with a poor intake system that picks up hot air will get a benefit from this, as the hot air will give more positive correction. Why should it get more power due to a poorly designed intake that picks up hot air? In the real world it is the ambient air temp that the car must use. What it does with it after ambient is up to the designer of the intake, and I see no reason for a well designed intake to result in penalised dyno results.

I have actually seen dirty tricks played using the air temp sensor in dyno comps. Often the dyno operator may not know the car well, so the owner can be asked to place the probe in the intake... I have seen them placed close to exhaust headers to inflate the correction and result in higher results... you can pick when this has been done if the dyno is in shootout mode, as the ambient and intake temp are displayed... if they differ too much, then something is not right!! I have seen dyno charts with intake temps reading well over 100C!!

-- Adrian

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by BBK

On the other hand, with all the mods done by Kenny, I would have thought he would make more power than what his dyno suggests. Hasn't someone on here with just JB downpipes and FMIC made 280+rwkw?

About 18 months ago, I pumped out 259 RWKW (36 Deg day) with just JB3 map7, everything else bone stock, except for the custom exhaust which deletes the 2 centre cats and resonator and replaces the mid pipes with custom pipes...

When I originally dynoed the car at stock when new (1K on the clock ) in read 182 RWKW.
On the same day, 2 other 135's dynoed at stock on the same machine before mine and read out 176 and 178 RWKW's respectively.

[adrian@vishnu]

ZuZu,

What dyno types did you used for those runs? We discussed this previously, and I thought you used ALS for the first runs and Tunehouse for the second. ALS uses a DD dyno and is therefore comparable to these results. Tunehouse have a dynapak, and the results cannot be compared. I have used that dyno before, and on a Subaru it reads atleast 30kW high. I have seen results vary by more than 50kW for the same car and tune with no changes other than being strapped to a different dyno. If I was to guess, I would say on a BMW the dynapak would read around 20-30kW more than a DD dyno.

The reason for the differences is that the dynapak does not turn the tyres against a roller. The tyres are where you lose the biggest portion of drivetrain loss. All the other interfaces that power must go through are efficient gear sets, but the tyres are a mushy transfer, and it takes alot of power to move the indent in the tyre (as it deforms the rubber) around the rim. Typically at higher speeds on the dyno, the tyres would account for around 30kW of loss (but depends on wheels/tyres/air pressure). Then there is more power loss for transmission etc. (worse for Auto than manual also) This is why on a dyno dynamics dyno in shootout mode, the operator is supposed to run 50psi tyre pressure to minimise losses (but this is rarely actually done).

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

ZuZu,

What dyno types did you used for those runs? We discussed this previously, and I thought you used ALS for the first runs and Tunehouse for the second. ALS uses a DD dyno and is therefore comparable to these results. Tunehouse have a dynapak, and the results cannot be compared. I have used that dyno before, and on a Subaru it reads atleast 30kW high. I have seen results vary by more than 50kW for the same car and tune with no changes other than being strapped to a different dyno. If I was to guess, I would say on a BMW the dynapak would read around 20-30kW more than a DD dyno.

The reason for the differences is that the dynapak does not turn the tyres against a roller. The tyres are where you lose the biggest portion of drivetrain loss. All the other interfaces that power must go through are efficient gear sets, but the tyres are a mushy transfer, and it takes alot of power to move the indent in the tyre (as it deforms the rubber) around the rim. Typically at higher speeds on the dyno, the tyres would account for around 30kW of loss (but depends on wheels/tyres/air pressure). Then there is more power loss for transmission etc. (worse for Auto than manual also) This is why on a dyno dynamics dyno in shootout mode, the operator is supposed to run 50psi tyre pressure to minimise losses (but this is rarely actually done).

Adrian, I discussed this with Tunehouse after our last discussion and they assured me the most variance would be 3 to 4% over a DD dyno..Which would equate to 7.5 to 10kw if that..

My bad, as I should have gone straight back to ALS and used his Dyno..Might still do that..

[MrBlonde]

Joe, simple, come to the Advan dyno day and get a dyno sheet.

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by MrBlonde

Joe, simple, come to the Advan dyno day and get a dyno sheet.

What day have you booked for..Whats the charge at Advan for the dyno?