BMW's mistake with the E82 135i and M1

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by treehacker

Or you can take this modding money and buy an M3. There's something for everybody....

Why do so many people assume that everybody wants an M3?

The M3 is faster around a track that an M5. M5 faster than Aplina B7.

The smaller car is a faster car than the bigger car in everything but a straight line. That is the way the 1M should be and if it isnt BMW has shot themselves in the foot.

I dont mind "only" having 350 HP because power was never the shortcoming of the 135. But if this car cant out turn every M car this side of an M3 GTS it will be disappointing.

[Yogijet]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Why do so many people assume that everybody wants an M3?

The M3 is faster around a track that an M5. M5 faster than Aplina B7.

The smaller car is a faster car than the bigger car in everything but a straight line. That is the way the 1M should be and if it isnt BMW has shot themselves in the foot.

I dont mind "only" having 350 HP because power was never the shortcoming of the 135. But if this car cant out turn every M car this side of an M3 GTS it will be disappointing.

You have a point, in principle. I get to drive a friend's 335i from time to time and it does feel heavier than the 135i. When I think of an M3, the question of whether or not I will feel the extra weight always weighs on my mind.

[Mu Mu]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Why do so many people assume that everybody wants an M3?

The M3 is faster around a track that an M5. M5 faster than Aplina B7.

The smaller car is a faster car than the bigger car in everything but a straight line. That is the way the 1M should be and if it isnt BMW has shot themselves in the foot.

I dont mind "only" having 350 HP because power was never the shortcoming of the 135. But if this car cant out turn every M car this side of an M3 GTS it will be disappointing.

The first thing that we have ever agreed upon.

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by formula M

I see...

So, u r a cynic and utterly believe that BMW wasn't trying to mimic the 2002 & E30 M3 in it's simplicity, but instead engineered/used components that would limit the 1M's abilities, based upon the current M3's abilities...(?)!


Bro, it is quite clear, that you do not see the different focus of each of these cars, & how their purpose are different. The 1M doesn't need an extra 110HP, specially when it has 370*ft-lbs of torque, maybe more (personally I wish for 360hp/400ft-lbs of tq). To understand why... you would have to understand it's powerband. Perhaps even compare it to the new Mustang to get an idea of how this car will bang.

To me, you simply want some ultra-specific car (that's in your head), to mirror a more powerful e90 M3 !! And fail to actively weigh your opinions and criticism on the 1M, mistaken for what you want in the next M3...! You are simply in the wrong forum.


Secondly, I think you are misplacing your butt dyno as horsepower, when the actual thing you seeks is low-end torque... given you recent remarks! Coincidentally, you keep specifically talking about some FEELING you crave, yet you cannot extrapolate that into what mechanically gives u that, so you scream HP in every post. But then speak about "hook up" and grunt work. Which is all torque.


Lastly, the N54 is a well balanced engine, the 1M will have a more powerful version of a balanced engine of 350HP & 380ft-lbs of torque @ 1,300 ~ 6,600rpms. It doesn't need as much horsepower, because it has such prodigious amounts of torque down low... more than most corvettes..!

So it achieve what HP is has, effortlessly..!



BMW's future with engine is all Volumetric Efficiency (VE). The more air, the more powerful...

Formula M, I understand the relation between torque and HP. Hooking up and actual acceleration takes horsepower. Yes, torque is the twisting force, but torque does not move something until TIME is involved, which is then measured by horsepower. The peak torque (notice I did not say anything about the TORQUE CURVE, which you seem to be referring to) does not matter assuming horsepower is the same, because each will be geared differently to make the same amount of torque to the ground due to different MAX engine speeds to reach the same horsepower with different amounts of torque.

And no, you do not have to make more torque then horsepower (on the N54 this due to torque dropping off in higher RPM because of crappy, undersized turbos) to have a HARD launch, and you don't even have to make all your torque "down low". Slightly laggier turbos required to hit my completely irrational magic 451HP number for the 1M would barely affect the launching ability of this car, which could even then be improved by having a two-step or method of inducing load from a stop.

You guys REALLY think 383WHP is just completely insane of me to ask for?

[LukyLuke]

Just my 2ç...

Next year Jan 1M
Next year end of life for M3 and Q2 to Q3 new 3 line-up
2011 Q2-Q3 new M3
2011 Q4 to 2012 new 1 serie and end of life 1M...

Their just very smart in fighting against the other makers...

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

The F30 M3 will be tri-turbo. Three twin scrolls and rev to 8k. 455HP/400TQ. 3400lbs.

T

Doesn't sound so far fetched now does it?

T

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by formula M

Please...^ <--me


I have already explained to you once before, that your take on what torque is, is skewed and you need to re-educate yourself. And that within generalized 1M threads, are not the place to try and discuss the virtues of torque. So.. if you feel inclined to teach us about torque, open a new thread. As I would gladly help you along, in finding an understanding. Additionally, I often use the word "powerband" (ie: dyno chart) in my discussions, because all of the engine matters -&- all of the engine must be considered, not just a single static point on a chart (ie: peak hp). Delta's matter more than peaks in many instances.

But, it is safe to say you do not understand what torque is, or does.


Secondly, we already know the N54 (in the 1M) has been worked by M engineers and that it already pulls longer (~6,800rpm) than the same block found in the 135i. So either you are un-informed, or enjoy making snide comments about aspects of the 1M that aren't released, but undoubtedly comming... Why? We have a great community here, please don't mire these boards with cynical retorts(?) (ie: undersized turbos? ) Have you ever even driven an M car.. what leads u to believe the M engineers have no idea what they are doing?

Yes... I think it is out of place, to keep asking for more horsepower, (ad nauseum), without first stipulating what specific needs, the M community at large, would benefit from, that warrants more HP from the 1M. Or, at least respect this community enough to stipulate exactly why you adamantly need an additional 106hp & profess other do, as well.

U balked the first time I asked... unless "liking the sound of a higher HP engine" was your answer.

It is safe to say that I do not understand what torque is or does.... Really? FUCK you. It is safe to say that you cannot understand me, or make a logical argument against my request for more power. You obviously did NOT understand that I was not speaking of torque curves but of why CRANK torque is NOT end-all for acceleration, WHEEL TORQUE IS, WHICH IS GEARED OUT to HIT CERTAIN SPEEDS BECAUSE WE HAVE HORSEPOWER!

IF THERE WAS NO HORSEPOWER YOU WOULDN'T EVEN MOVE, GET IT? YOU CAN HAVE 7ft-lbs AND GEAR IT TO BE 700ft-lbs AT THE WHEELS. THEN YOUR SPEED WILL BE DEPENDENT ON HORSEPOWER. (MAX ENGINE ROTATIONAL SPEED)

Are you serious? Yes, I have driven the current gen M3, standard. I have driven a supercharged e36 M3. I have driven a stock SMG E46 M3.

YOU are the one who is not understanding. I KNOW how to read a compressor map, evaluate an engine's characteristics from a dyno chart, and how to put together a motor.

Did you read anything I said?! WHEN DID I SAY I WANTED A PEAKY POWERBAND!? THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A PEAK HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE NUMBER, and I WISH the PEAK power of the 1M WAS 451, preferably around 6000 RPM or HIGHER!

THAT would allow for a car that is FUN and MAKES TORQUE AT RACING ENGINE SPEEDS! It would actually keep pulling you into your seat close to the same amount from spool until your shifting point, UNLIKE the stock N54!

When will I need 370ft-lbs at 2000RPM at the track? NEVER! And my point is THEY COULD still keep the great torque curve from 2500-7000RPM WITH A PAIR OF LARGER, NEW TECH BB TURBOS that DON'T drop the torque off a cliff at 5000RPM!!!

THERE HAS BEEN NO MENTION OF ANY UPGRADED HARDWARE FOR THE 1M ENGINE, ONLY PISTON RINGS.

Piston rings will NOT solve the current disappointments I have with the N54.

It would take larger or better designed turbos AND/OR headwork.


Do I really have to be captain obvious?! How would 1M owners benefit from 451HP over 340? ARE YOU JOKING?! My GOD, that is like asking how a car would benefit from having a WIDER contact patch! Or is 451 too much power for you to handle?


I'll make this really easy for you.


The 1M doesn't NEED 451HP. It doesn't NEED 340HP. Fuck, it probably only NEEDS 40HP to be able to get moving.

I WANT 451HP from the factory. What will 451HP do for M owners over 340HP?

IT WILL GIVE THEM POTENTIAL FOR FASTER LAP TIMES, AND INCREASE OVERALL ENJOYMENT OF THE CAR.

How does that not make sense to you?!?!?!?


Tell me this, Formula M, why should the 1M be limited to 340HP?

[GotM]

Originally Posted by formula M

Lastly, the N54 is a well balanced engine, the 1M will have a more powerful version of a balanced engine of 350HP & 380ft-lbs of torque @ 1,300 ~ 6,600rpms.

All of the discussion on this thread got me thinking about the numbers that are out there on this car. And something isnt working. If I recall correctly we hear 340hp/370 ftlbs. We also hear that the car pulls to redline...or at least close to it. But, if this the case these numbers wont work.

It would be nice if we had the 350hp engine mentioned above...if it could provide that 380 ftlbs across the mentioned rpm range. But, if it could do this this it would not be a 350hp engine. 380ftlbs at 6600rpm is nearly 480hp.

If it has 370ftlbs, this has to happen before well before 5252rpms otherwise it is a higher HP engine. If it can provide 300ftlbs at 6000rpm, then we have a 340 hp engine @ 6000rpm. If we assume this drop in torque, I am sure this will feel like the engine is losing steam.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

There is NO REASON why the 1M can't have 450hp.

Limiting a car's potential just so it doesn't hurt feelings of a more expensive car is stupid in an enthusiast's eyes, but the BMW money management team apparently has a blast creating an unnecessary hierarchy....

Your assumption is that BMW is artificially limiting the 1M's performance artificially as Porsche did with the 944 Turbo and does with the Cayman. If that's the case, however, it's by nowhere near the amount you're imagining. BMW can't deliver a 450 hp 1M with the drivability, reliability, profitably and spec of the current car.

Adding horsepower is always the easy part, but it comes with a cost. The seemingly cheap solutions, like turn up the boost and larger turbos, are actually not cheap for a manufacturer: they reduce driveability, increase wear, decrease lifespan, and increase cooling requirements (and hence weight). Remember the N54 won motor of the year in '07 and '08- it's already a better power/ weight/ efficiency compromise than anyone else could make. To assume you can magically get another 50% without serious cost/ weight/ performance penalty is more than a little optimistic. FYI, dressed modern production car performance engines tend to run between .65 and 1.0 hp per pound – the “300 hp” N54 is .71, the M5’s S85 in .94, and these are some of the better ones (outside of carrera GTs and the like). There is no free lunch- you can roughly calculate how much weight your extra power would add if they didn't use more expensive construction (easily 50-120 lbs to the dressed motor- all in the wrong place) to say nothing of the cost.

Once they have added the power, however, suddenly everything else is too weak. The gearbox isn't rated for the torque- gotta uprate that (adds weight). Ditto the clutch, drive axles, CVs, add gearbox cooling- more cost and weight. And you still haven’t gotten to the hard part:

Finally you need to make the extra power usable. Making power has never been a problem- you could get 1000 hp in a drag car in the 60s no problem. Making that power deployable, however, is the real issue. Horsepower output has roughly doubled over the last 25 years largely due to traction control. However that’s a band-aid solution for a real performance car, as anyone who’s been stuck with over-active traction control knows. The real solution is more traction, which comes from bigger (heavier) wheels and tires and more weight over the rear. Even with bigger tires the 1M, with roughly 50% of the weight over the back, simply isn't set up to put very high power to weight ratios down well. The whole car's setup and character would begin to change from a nimble car to a slow-in, fast-out car.

So the car goes up in weight, gets more expensive, less nimble... And BMW is building that car: it’s the next M3.

Now it sounds like you are thinking of this primarily as a track car (not what BMW is building, BTW- get a Radical). As such you may be willing to compromise in some areas BMW isn’t. You’ll run stickier tires and help the power-down issues. You’ll be willing to accept a bit more lag and reduced life for increased power. In which case there will be plenty of people willing to help you add that power. If that’s not acceptable I’m sure there are plenty of other cars that meet your specs out there. Let me know what they are when you find them...

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by GotM

If it has 370ftlbs, this has to happen before well before 5252rpms otherwise it is a higher HP engine. If it can provide 300ftlbs at 6000rpm, then we have a 340 hp engine @ 6000rpm. If we assume this drop in torque, I am sure this will feel like the engine is losing steam.

Usually the motor "feels like it's loosing steam" when the HP curve starts to dip. Very few motors pull flat torque curves to redline- even high rpm M3s.
http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=793

[malapane]

Based on all this 'positioning" I believe the only real potential benifit to the 1M over the 135i is the suspension.

Power wise, a few minor mods to the N54 will easily put it with or ahead of the 1M. Potential for the engine of 135i or 1M should really not be different.

The aesthetic of the 1M does not do it for me. It is too conspicuous.

After all this, the extra $$$ just makes it seem crazy to me. The only thing that people will be paying extra for is the status.

This might be my last BMW - I don't like where they are going.

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by malapane

Based on all this 'positioning" I believe the only real potential benifit to the 1M over the 135i is the suspension.

Power wise, a few minor mods to the N54 will easily put it with or ahead of the 1M. Potential for the engine of 135i or 1M should really not be different.

The aesthetic of the 1M does not do it for me. It is too conspicuous.

After all this, the extra $$$ just makes it seem crazy to me. The only thing that people will be paying extra for is the status.

This might be my last BMW - I don't like where they are going.

OK, but how 'bout limited slip, bodywork that can accomodate wider rubber and, hopefully, significantly enhanced cooling? These are significant, especially if you'll be tracking the car.

Neil

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

The smaller car is a faster car than the bigger car in everything but a straight line. That is the way the 1M should be and if it isnt BMW has shot themselves in the foot.

Again, the 2002 Turbo was faster than the the 3.0csl. Back then BMW was not so paranoid.

[malapane]

Yes limited slip is a big deal. But worth the extra cash the 1M will demand? No way. Any car with enough HP to break the rear free at will should always have limited slip. I had a Mustang GT that was 21k brand new, and it came with limited slip. How expensive is it really? 135 should have it - big mistake. E-diff is worse than worthless. I'd rather not have it - makes the rear unpredictable under power.

As for the tires, 135 guys are only trying to squeeze huge rubber in cause the suspension sucks. If the cars was balanced and didnt push so hard it wouldn't be so important. Besides, who says they track tires need to fit the fender. If you are seriously going to track it your not going to run street tires.

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by malapane

Yes limited slip is a big deal. But worth the extra cash the 1M will demand? No way. Any car with enough HP to break the rear free at will should always have limited slip. I had a Mustang GT that was 21k brand new, and it came with limited slip. How expensive is it really? 135 should have it - big mistake. E-diff is worse than worthless. I'd rather not have it - makes the rear unpredictable under power.

As for the tires, 135 guys are only trying to squeeze huge rubber in cause the suspension sucks. If the cars was balanced and didnt push so hard it wouldn't be so important. Besides, who says they track tires need to fit the fender. If you are seriously going to track it your not going to run street tires.

Most sanctioning bodies require that the rubber fit within the bodywork.

Neil

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by malapane

Based on all this 'positioning" I believe the only real potential benifit to the 1M over the 135i is the suspension.

Power wise, a few minor mods to the N54 will easily put it with or ahead of the 1M. Potential for the engine of 135i or 1M should really not be different.

The aesthetic of the 1M does not do it for me. It is too conspicuous.

After all this, the extra $$$ just makes it seem crazy to me. The only thing that people will be paying extra for is the status.

This might be my last BMW - I don't like where they are going.

Obviously there are comments in these threads from people that have never owned ///M cars. If you have never owned and driven regularly an ///M car then you do not have a complete understanding that you cannot just add "a few minor mods to the N54 will easily put it with or ahead of the 1M".

Those that have never owned an ///M car please refrain from commenting.

T

[marcel b]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

Obviously there are comments in these threads from people that have never owned ///M cars. If you have never owned and driven regularly an ///M car then you do not have a complete understanding that you cannot just add "a few minor mods to the N54 will easily put it with or ahead of the 1M".

Those that have never owned an ///M car please refrain from comment like

T

+1!

I am laughing when I read some comments here. Some people have really no idea what they are talking about. As if BMW would spent so much money in developing a car which is worse then a 135 with a few mods Seriously...
And sure, they put bigger tires because the suspension is crap

An 1M will smoke more or less any modded 135i on a track. (not only straight line or drag racing) Anyway, people making such comments, please do not buy a 1M! Let people drive it who appreciate and know what M means.

[roo97ss]

Originally Posted by marcel b

+1!

I am laughing when I read some comments here. Some people have really no idea what they are talking about. As if BMW would spent so much money in developing a car which is worse then a 135 with a few mods Seriously...
And sure, they put bigger tires because the suspension is crap

An 1M will smoke more or less any modded 135i on a track. (not only straight line or drag racing) Anyway, people making such comments, please do not buy a 1M! Let people drive it who appreciate and know what M means.

from my e36 and e46 m3, sure both cars were better than the non Ms, but both needed at least shocks/springs, or coilovers to be serious on the track. however, the M car will surely be better than a 1 on the track, unless highly modded.

However, i'm going to disagree with straight line, modded the 135 will beat it i'm sure (stock 1M of course)

However you'll need suspension components (control arms) and bushings, sway bars, coilovers or at least shocks/springs, then better rubber, probably new rims...

Limited slip diff...

Now still haven't done any brake work, not sure how well the brembos hold up to heat...probably need an upgrade

Cooling, i suppose the M has upgraded oil cooler and radiator.

Those are LOTS of mods.

The best car you could build (135) for the track would be the aforementioned mods on an n55 DCT which would make it faster than the 1M for sure.

Where people are coming from though is that in the past the biggest difference has been the power advantage the M held on the non M cars.

e36 240 vs 192
e46 333 vs 235 (zhp)
e82 300 vs 340 (or for 600$ tune probably 390-400 vs 340)

However, in the end...you've still got no resale value in your 135/335 compared to the M car, plus lack the cosmetic goodies too.
But think how proud you'll be of all the work you've put into your car.

[malapane]

Originally Posted by marcel b

+1!
I am laughing when I read some comments here. Some people have really no idea what they are talking about. As if BMW would spent so much money in developing a car which is worse then a 135 with a few mods Seriously...

I guess BMW is perfect, and we should swallow everything they feed us? Plenty of companies have spent plenty of money to develop less than perfect products.
Something is not good because it is expensive - often it is expensive because it's good. For the premium this car demands, a 10% hp bump to keep it safely behind the M3, just seems to be a slap in the face.

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

Those that have never owned an ///M car please refrain from commenting.

T

So the opinion(s) of everyone who hasn't owned an M car is worthless? Sounds pretty elitist to me. I suppose that M makes it the best in the world - beyond comparison - nothing else has any merit. I see, any further discussion is useless.