Dinan 335i software announced! -- 384hp / 421 tq

[john970]

Originally Posted by chemhalo

increase in lag - technically there should be NO increase in lag. Its not like you swapped out turbos. It will have the same spool. It will reach 8psi as fast as ****** car. But it will also keep boosting past 8psi. Maybe that is perceived as increased lag?

So the lag/no lag is completely the result of the turbo design? I thought lag was tied to boost. The 911 turbo supposedly has more lag even with a variable geometry turbo, and I assumed that was partly due to the increase in boost over a stock 135 and partly due to its larger size (huge).

For reference, the 997 911 turbo runs up to 14.5 psi of boost.

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by Garrett

How many more companies do you think will pay the royalties to have access to BMW ECU's..?

Thats why most went with "piggyback". Turner Motorsports already hase access because they tune their own cars do to their racing them. DINAN has always worked real close with BMW technicians.

How many more ECU flashes do you see comming down the pipe...?

Given the fact that most people WILL have the flash done at a BMW dealer... there is nothing to hide. If that causes dmg to your car... it's no different than a piggyback doing it.

Do you think removing it after some catostrophic f ailure going to mean BMW is ignorant of what causes it...?







-Garrett

Turner motorsports does not have access for racing all there race cars use stand alone ECUs. the factory computers do not have enough parameters for a race tune. I was told by one guy at Turner that there is not one BMW wire left in there GS E46 M3 and that just the stand alone ECU gives them 15% increase in power. of course I'm not saying turners racing connections did not get them access some how but I do know their race cars use all custom ECUs and software.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by john970

So the lag/no lag is completely the result of the turbo design? I thought lag was tied to boost. The 911 turbo supposedly has more lag even with a variable geometry turbo, and I assumed that was partly due to the increase in boost over a stock 135 and partly due to its larger size (huge).

For reference, the 997 911 turbo runs up to 14.5 psi of boost.

I've driven two procede equipped 335i cars, and driven numerous stock 335i cars. The procede cars have lag. It's noticeable, far moreso than on the stock 335i. Step on gas, wait.., then it comes in strong. The stock car does not do this as much (it's there, but very slight).

[john970]

Originally Posted by larryn

I've driven two procede equipped 335i cars, and driven numerous stock 335i cars. The procede cars have lag. It's noticeable, far moreso than on the stock 335i. Step on gas, wait.., then it comes in strong. The stock car does not do this as much (it's there, but very slight).

As I suspected... you don't get something for nothing.

[chemhalo]

Originally Posted by john970

So the lag/no lag is completely the result of the turbo design? I thought lag was tied to boost. The 911 turbo supposedly has more lag even with a variable geometry turbo, and I assumed that was partly due to the increase in boost over a stock 135 and partly due to its larger size (huge).

For reference, the 997 911 turbo runs up to 14.5 psi of boost.

Generally, the bigger the turbo the slower the spool for a given engine. After that you have to look at the A/R and trim of two similarly sized turbos to determine which will spool faster. The N54 and its tiny turbos can hit 14.5 psi faster than the turbos on the 911 can. What really matters is how long can the turbos hold 14.5 psi and how efficiently they can hold 14.5 psi throughout the powerband. For the turbos on the 911, the answer is much more efficiently. The VGTs on the 911 allow it to alter exhaust gas velocity so it can spool faster at low rpms and not get maxed out at high rpms--which is normally a trade-off when selecting a bigger turbo.

[chemhalo]

Originally Posted by larryn

I've driven two procede equipped 335i cars, and driven numerous stock 335i cars. The procede cars have lag. It's noticeable, far moreso than on the stock 335i. Step on gas, wait.., then it comes in strong. The stock car does not do this as much (it's there, but very slight).

I dont know if there is a way to log boost/rpm on a BMW, but there is no technical reason for a car with Procede to make x psi in more time than it takes a stock car. I personally think there might be an illusion of more lag because peak torque is larger and occurs later in the powerband with procede. A graph of boost/rpm could prove that wrong though. My only other thought would be that a piggyback system causes the lag somehow vs a true ECU flash like Dinan. But still, I cannot think of why that would happen either.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by chemhalo

I dont know if there is a way to log boost/rpm on a BMW, but there is no technical reason for a car with Procede to make x psi in more time than it takes a stock car. I personally think there might be an illusion of more lag because peak torque is larger and occurs later in the powerband with procede. A graph of boost/rpm could prove that wrong though. My only other thought would be that a piggyback system causes the lag somehow vs a true ECU flash like Dinan. But still, I cannot think of why that would happen either.

Well, both owners of the procede cars thought they had more turbo lag too. It was really noticeable. One car had 1.47 and the other had v2.xx (something). They both have different torque curves, although it pretty close to stock and wouldn't account for the full second (or so) of nothingness, before you accelerate.

Btw, I drove both a few runs on different autocross courses, where you are constantly going from braking to WOT, which really showed the lag.

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by larryn

Well, both owners of the procede cars thought they had more turbo lag too. It was really noticeable. One car had 1.47 and the other had v2.xx (something). They both have different torque curves, although it pretty close to stock and wouldn't account for the full second (or so) of nothingness, before you accelerate.

Btw, I drove both a few runs on different autocross courses, where you are constantly going from braking to WOT, which really showed the lag.

:biggrin:just got to keep those RPMs and boost up:headbang:

[Evolved]

Originally Posted by larryn

I've driven two procede equipped 335i cars, and driven numerous stock 335i cars. The procede cars have lag. It's noticeable, far moreso than on the stock 335i. Step on gas, wait.., then it comes in strong. The stock car does not do this as much (it's there, but very slight).

I don't understand this. If you're not making any mechanical changes,a new turbo, how can there be more lag? Sound like more of a tuning issue.

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by Evolved

I don't understand this. If you're not making any mechanical changes,a new turbo, how can there be more lag? Sound like more of a tuning issue.

my guess is there is not more lag, just feels that way because there is more boost. So the differen between no/partitial/full boost is more noticeable.

[Evolved]

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

my guess is there is not more lag, just feels that way because there is more boost. So the differen between no/partitial/full boost is more noticeable.

Also did those cars have a boost gages? Or dyno charts for that matter? Those would tell you if it comes on later or not.

I guess it could be intentional, maybe procede moves the power band farther up the rpm range. I don't know anything about procede so I have no idea.

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by Evolved

Also did those cars have a boost gages? Or dyno charts for that matter? Those would tell you if it comes on later or not.

I guess it could be intentional, maybe procede moves the power band farther up the rpm range. I don't know anything about procede so I have no idea.

or maybe the proceed intercepting and retransmitting of information between the motor and ECU slows down response

[atr_hugo]

Originally Posted by BMWeber

or maybe the proceed intercepting and retransmitting of information between the motor and ECU slows down response

That'd be a pretty significant delay - must be running those electrons around in circles before letting them escape the piggyback unit. But since the size of the turbos hasn't change, it could only be the boost mapping or some odd duck internal delay in the add-on ECU. Wonder how the Dinan feels?

[john970]

More boost must equal more lag... while a low boost setup is letting the exhaust escape, a high boost setup is still producing back pressure..

right??

[MrRoboto]

There wouldn’t be more lag.

Their would be more 'perceivable' lag as it relates to peak power. The exhaust gasses are flowing at the same rate causing the blower to spool at the same rate it just takes longer to reach max boost.

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by john970

More boost must equal more lag... while a low boost setup is letting the exhaust escape, a high boost setup is still producing back pressure..

right??

this sounds pretty logical to me

[atr_hugo]

All other things being equal the larger turbo will have more lag but more power up top. Smaller turbo - less lag - less power up top.

The piggyback units to the ECU has to be doing something odd if there is perceptible lag given the fact that the turbos have not been changed. The onset of boost won't immediately provide max boost pressure, so I don't think the backpressure issue is there, that will happen further up the rev range. It is really odd that there is a lag perceived in the piggybacked cars.

[~AJ]

Originally Posted by Garrett

How many more companies do you think will pay the royalties to have access to BMW ECU's..?

-Garrett

My RSX Type-S ECU has been reflashed by Hondata for my Jackson Racing supercharger.

I mailed the ECU to Hondata, they reflashed it, then mailed it back. Cost? $599.

The reflash runs the larger aftermarket fuel injectors, changed the variable valve timing maps, lowered the VTEC changeover points (throttle dependent now), raised fuel cutoff to 8,600rpm, modified the ignition, increased the idle speed a tiny bit, and a few other things.

Doug hacked the ECU himself, no need to pay royalties to Honda for access to their ECU's.

$2,000 is too much money. Deeper pockets in the BMW world?

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by AJ~

My RSX Type-S ECU has been reflashed by Hondata for my Jackson Racing supercharger.

I mailed the ECU to Hondata, they reflashed it, then mailed it back. Cost? $599.

The reflash runs the larger aftermarket fuel injectors, changed the variable valve timing maps, lowered the VTEC changeover points (throttle dependent now), raised fuel cutoff to 8,600rpm, modified the ignition, increased the idle speed a tiny bit, and a few other things.

Doug hacked the ECU himself, no need to pay royalties to Honda for access to their ECU's.

$2,000 is too much money. Deeper pockets in the BMW world?

A reflash for my s2000 would cost 599 from Hondata. It would yield 16hp. I'd rather pay 2k and get what they are promising.

[chemhalo]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

A reflash for my s2000 would cost 599 from Hondata. It would yield 16hp. I'd rather pay 2k and get what they are promising.

I think my GIAC flash was 499 for like +40hp/+70lbft. I love turbocharged cars

A GIAC update thread on E90 said they were having issues breaking the encryption on the ECU. Maybe this is something Dinan didnt have to deal with if they paid BMW? or were just given access?

[Evolved]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

All other things being equal the larger turbo will have more lag but more power up top. Smaller turbo - less lag - less power up top.

The piggyback units to the ECU has to be doing something odd if there is perceptible lag given the fact that the turbos have not been changed. The onset of boost won't immediately provide max boost pressure, so I don't think the backpressure issue is there, that will happen further up the rev range. It is really odd that there is a lag perceived in the piggybacked cars.

It might be the design of the software, allow the turbos to spool later in the RPM band so that they stay "on" in the upper RPM before they exceed their efficiency.

Honestly, this is rather easy to figure out all we need is some one with the software installed. A boost gage would tell us, a dyno chart or a boost plot would as well.


And about the price, It cost me $400 to have my Evo dyno tuned by a professional and I'll take a custom tune over a mail in flash any day.

[mikeo]

335i owners who have recently done the Dinan upgrade are not reporting any turbo lag. For that matter, I don't recall any 335i owner reporting turbo lag with any aftermarket ECU piggyback or flash. But then, I haven't read every post over on e90POST.