BMW 1 Series M Coupe... Now , I believe... Future of 1M (M2) and M Cars

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Uh, do you mean M3 diff? Or ring and pinion?

They are already using M3 diff, so that's no question. That's why I specified exactly what I meant: the diff from the M3 MANUAL trans car (different ratio from the DCT M3).

Either way I think you're off...

Off about what? That it would improve acceleration performance to have a higher numerical gear ratio? Or you just don't want the stuff I listed (more HP/higher peak, better trans (DCT), or higher ratio diff gears)?

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

They are already using M3 diff, so that's no question. That's why I specified exactly what I meant: the diff from the M3 MANUAL trans car (different ratio from the DCT M3).

I was pointing out that you're not using the word "differential" correctly. When you say diff, you mean "ring and pinion" or "final drive ratio". The diff is the part that connects the two drive axles together, as in "limited slip diff". It does not have a gear ratio.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Off about what? That it would improve acceleration performance to have a higher numerical gear ratio?

Yes, putting in the M3 manual's final drive would slow the car's acceleration.

I've attached a graph below. Red is the M3 R&P, blue the 1M.

1st gear with the M3s R&P puts more torque to the tires than they can handle, resulting in wheelspin. The 1M's current 1st gear is already very close to wheelspin on street tires- it's accelerating 20% harder than an M3 in 1st. An extra 22% from there puts it well over the traction limit and is simply not usable. In 2nd through 6th you can see the advantage trade back and forth in between the two R&Ps on the graph- where the blue line is on top the stock 3.154 car has an advantage and vice versa. However the 3.846 ratio needs to shift more, and each shift takes over .3 seconds. Short R&P requires 3 shifts to 100 mph instead of 2, 4 shifts to 120 instead of 3, etc.

The net effect is that overall the car is slower with the short R&P, and Lapsim or another sim programs will confirm that. Shorter is not always better.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by aajami

Fair points all around. Though the GT2RS motor is the best in class, and it commands an appropriate price tag. If we're comparing engines of that caliber, then I'd still take a naturally aspirated equivalent like a GT3RS....

As did I, if you see my sig...

[Sugarphreak]

I think my dream 1M would be extremely light and simplistic.... when I say light I would like to see the car down in the 2600lb range; bring on a very high revving and very durable 4 cylinder so I can spend all day on the track without it overheating or zip around in autocross in 2nd gear without getting to the rev limiter.

Here is something strange... give me a slick shifting 5 speed manual.

Keep the price reasonable, simple and easy components to work with... I would be thrilled!

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Sugarphreak

I think my dream 1M would be extremely light and simplistic.... when I say light I would like to see the car down in the 2600lb range; bring on a very high revving and very durable 4 cylinder so I can spend all day on the track without it overheating or zip around in autocross in 2nd gear without getting to the rev limiter.

Here is something strange... give me a slick shifting 5 speed manual.

Keep the price reasonable, simple and easy components to work with... I would be thrilled!

Lighten up an E30 M3 and I think it ticks all your boxes.

[335timb]

Is it just me, or did SCOTT26's post seem to be a bit of a disclaimer? If I may liberally paraphrase: This 1M is a pretty good M-car, what with the limited time and budget. But just wait for the next generation 1M, or by then it might be called the M2. THAT will be a special car! We'll have more time, and more money... the car will have much more to offer!

Almost like he is saying 'don't buy this one, wait for the next one.'

Okay then, thank you for the caveat SCOTT26. I WILL wait. I believe you. I'll bet the next one WILL be better.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by Sugarphreak

I think my dream 1M would be extremely light and simplistic.... when I say light I would like to see the car down in the 2600lb range; bring on a very high revving and very durable 4 cylinder so I can spend all day on the track without it overheating or zip around in autocross in 2nd gear without getting to the rev limiter.

Here is something strange... give me a slick shifting 5 speed manual.

Keep the price reasonable, simple and easy components to work with... I would be thrilled!

You should pick up a used S2000, put a roll bar in it and get a factory hard top. I've been in one setup like that and they are really fun.

[GTAStradale]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

My sentiments exactly. Looks like there aren't going to be any M products for those like us in the near future. We can only hope the late next gen CSL versions of the 1M/M2 and M3 are something special as SCOTT26 has alluded to. However that won't be for what another what 6-8 years? And thats assuming they are offered in the US and in stick shift, two things BMW's history shows are not worth holding your breath for. My faith in BMW M is in free fall, and I will probably just keep my E46 M3 long term. Time to look elsewhere for the next addition to my garage.

Could not agree more with you in everything you are saying. I was amazed with M3s since the childhood. I finally bought E92 two years ago and soon thereafter realized I made a wrong choice. Guess what I did next ?

I went for a testride with E46 M3 CSL and fell in love with the thing instantly. It took me a year to find one and finally exchanged key to key with one dealership half a year ago. What a car! It brings smile on my face every time I turn the ignition key....let alone drive it.

People dont really understand this...they keep asking why did i change a new M3 for an old model and stupid questions like that. But they dont really understand that its not about HPs and electric seats....its all about how does the think make you feel. And thats why I just love the CSL....its uncomparable with the new heavy E92..which feels like a Renault Laguna, but with more HP.

I would love if I would have a new car that feels the same, rather than 2004 CSL...but as you rightly said, BMW is not providing me with that choice. So I wont be buying anything from BMW M-range until they come up with someting that is lighter, that I can hear when I press the accelerator and that feels like a car on a steering wheel (which by the way is brilliant on E46 comparing it to E92).

So likewise to you, I will stick to the CSL, probably forever since its an amazing car. If finances allow, and BMW does not get smarter, GT3 may be the next target...lets see !

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Lighten up an E30 M3 and I think it ticks all your boxes.

A J prepared E30 M3 comes in at 2650 lbs... so yes.. Sugarphreak should go and buy an E30 M3 and prep it for that or M3 Touring under BMW CCA club racing

[Brandon26pdx]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Due to low-revving turbo engines having only 7000 rpm redlines, short final drive and short gears are impossible since their acceleration and top speed suffers so they MUST get tall gearing making the car have a "lazy" character.

After daily driving my 6mt 135i for a bit now, I can appreciate this point. Seems like ratio spacing between the gears is unacceptably tall, especially noticeable between the 1-2 up-shift. What this feels like out in the real world is the need to rev 1st out farther than you'd normally need to, just to keep 2nd out of an overly low rpm after completing the up-shift. But faster engine rpm, of course, makes if harder to up shift smoothly in normal driving. Optimized gear spacing is one of the hallmarks of a true performance car.

[iceman335]

The new AMG 5.5L Twin Turbo is also a light weight machine(204kg vs N54's 195kg), it can easily go up to 550hp or plus. I don't see how BMW can make a "tuned N54" to match the power of it....

[ANILE8]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

It's interesting that BMW seems content for the next 3-4 with this current M lineup. While the next M5 may be coming, it caters to an upscale luxury market not the enthusiast market.

I think in the past BMW felt they could get away with offering nothing to the enthusiast market for a year or two. This may have been true in the past due to a lack of competition, but is no longer the case today with ample challengers coming from many directions.

For instance, I have an E46 M3 I bought just a year ago because I wasn't impressed with the E92 M3 after coming out of a Z4M coupe. I looked hard until I found a pristine non-sunroof ZCP Alpine White on Cinnamon example. This car appealed to me far more than any E92 M3. Now after a year I still love the car and plan to keep it long term, but also want to add an even more focused sports car with more power.

Looking across the BMW lineup at present and for the near future there is absolutely nothing for me. Therefore BMW is turning people like me towards other brands.

When I think about my options for the near future in the under 70 thousand dollar range, they consist of:

1. 997.1 GT3
2. 997.1 turbo
3. 997.2 C2S
4. Or god forbid maybe some american uber muscle like the GT500 or potentially the upcoming Z28 Camaro

I think BMW needs something that can compare with these cars at their higher thrill level sooner rather than later. Likely in the form of some sort of 1M CSL or M3 CSL type car in the next year or two. Otherwise those like me aren't going to be patient forever.

Also there is the fact of SCOTT26 mentioning that the next gen 1M and M3 will have more hardcore versions later in their life cycles to emulate Porsche and its GT3 apparently. This makes me even more unlikely to be willing to buy BMW at the time of the next gen M releases.

Why did you go from a Z4-MC to a E46 M3?

It is a less focused drivers car and for the type of vehicle you seem to like it would be a step backward in terms of performance and handling.

[SCOTT26]

No I meant that this car is a test to what is capable at a very short period.
The next car (2014) will inherit the same philosophy but will be more widespread in development and ideas that could not be accomodated.

If you do not get this car then you will regret it and everytime you see one either alongside , changing lanes or on the opposite side of the street.
It will eat you up inside.

You have been warned....

[Drillslinger]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If you do not get this car then you will regret it and everytime you see one either alongside , changing lanes or on the opposite side of the street.
It will eat you up inside.

You have been warned....

Thanks for the warning Scott, and I agree personally. The only thing that will keep me from getting this car is if Military Sales doesn't offer it (any word on that?)

[Sugarphreak]

You should pick up a used S2000, put a roll bar in it and get a factory hard top. I've been in one setup like that and they are really fun.

A lot of guys in my Autocross club drive S2000's, I have been able to throw more than a few of them around. They are wicked fun and a thrill to drive, but something about them still turns me off. I have a hard time putting my finger on exactly what is is though.

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Lighten up an E30 M3 and I think it ticks all your boxes.

haha, my post is just daring to dream a little about up coming models;

I do love the raw purist feel of the older BMW's, I have been considering exactly what you are suggesting, also a 2002 as well... one of the reasons I have been drawn into the 1 series cars so much, they originally marketed it as the new 2002.

I have had a chance to autocross a 135i with a few upgrades, it definitely encompasses some of the spirit of the older cars I am after.

[sq86]

I don't understand how BMW, and M specifically, can get away with not producing a E9x size M car for a few (three plus) years. Do they really think a two seater or a SUV can fulfill this? No one will want the impracticality of a two seater or the large size of a SUV. I find the size of my E90 perfect for everyday use. The lack of a product in that market segment will drive people to other brands.

I personally thought that putting a V8 in this generation M3 was a mistake. Now BMW/M has lots of people whining about the lack of a V8. They should have done a twin turbo I6. I love I6's (particularly NA one's) and the fact that they ventured away from them disappointed me.

On a side note, I think a X3M would be cool for a family size vehicle. In a few years for myself that would be great for practicality and fun.

[SCOTT26]

The X3M is not a direct replacement for the M3 but an addition to the Premium Entry Performance segment. It is a ready available concept to fill in (not directly replace) along with the Z4M. If they are given the green light.

[JB135MDCT]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If you do not get this car then you will regret it and everytime you see one either alongside , changing lanes or on the opposite side of the street.
It will eat you up inside.

You have been warned....

I'll drool until he pulls along side, then drop 2 gears and will never be able to catch me.

Depending on which hand you use, the piece sign means two different things.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

I was pointing out that you're not using the word "differential" correctly. When you say diff, you mean "ring and pinion" or "final drive ratio". The diff is the part that connects the two drive axles together, as in "limited slip diff". It does not have a gear ratio.

Yea, I should have stated more precisely what I meant, although clearly you did understand.

Anyway, the point was that I prefer the higher (numerical) ratio, due to the harder acceleration in each gear.

Yes, putting in the M3 manual's final drive would slow the car's acceleration.

We disagree, both because I dispute some of your assumptions, and because I believe you didn't consider some of the most relevant factors.

1st gear with the M3s R&P puts more torque to the tires than they can handle, resulting in wheelspin.

Can you please cite some objective source for this statement?


Also, I'm not sure of the relevance/importance of the number of shifts to some arbitrary speed. What if the speed is to just BEFORE the last shift for the high (numeric) gear or just AFTER it for the low gear? We can each pick examples to suit our perspective, but the FACT is, the higher gear provides greater acceleration in every gear. Since drag racing is of low importance to me, then even if your assertion regarding traction from a stop is true, it's just not that important. Much more key will be how hard the car pulls in each gear while already likely in 2nd or higher gear.


But, it's irrelevant anyway, other than to whine about it. BMW is offering the highway gear instead of the performance gear.

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

If you do not get this car then you will regret it and everytime you see one either alongside , changing lanes or on the opposite side of the street.
It will eat you up inside.

You have been warned....

Marketing quote of the century. I hope every BMW marketing campaign from now on includes a tagline to this effect.

Over promise and under deliver anyone? I thought a good business model usually employed the inverse concept.

Extreme hyping to overcompensate for the actuality of a truly nice car that was build to fit a price point and performance level inferior to the current M3.

We are discussing an excellent small sports sedan utilizing first generation engine and turbo technology which is the same as used throughout the standard BMW AG product line. This N54 engine has proven to have several early adopter issues such as High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure, and Carbon Build Up on Direct Injected Engines.

We should call something what it is if we are to be reasonable, and not driven purely by marketing. I would expect the next generation 1M/M2 and M3 to have improved over this car substantially in every facet ranging from sportiness to reliability. Therefore I can't image the need for such use of hyperbole in stating how much regret all us who pass on this car will have.

But if you insist...

I guess there will come the day in the future when an electric motor assisted 3 cylinder diesel sports car shares the road with me. I'm sure I will look over at the purity of its sporting character and then back at my archaic Inline 6 high revving motor and feel like I could be enjoying my road-going experience more.

[Harold Wood]

Thanks for the post Scott, I like the idea of the of the X3M / Z4M to slot in with the 1M before all the other M models are produced.

[aajami]

Originally Posted by Sugarphreak

A lot of guys in my Autocross club drive S2000's, I have been able to throw more than a few of them around. They are wicked fun and a thrill to drive, but something about them still turns me off. I have a hard time putting my finger on exactly what is is though.

Maybe because it's a torqueless wonder? Before any S2K fans flame me, know that I owned one for 8 wonderful years. It's the best car I ever owned -- I just wish it had a bit more oomph to it.

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

As did I, if you see my sig...

Nicely done. My father owned a 1969 911 Carrera in Lebanon -- I have fond memories of that car. Do you mind posting pics of yours? Did you do the engine transplant yourself?