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      07-15-2018, 10:37 AM   #23
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better to get in front of it...

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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Are you suggesting the White House controlled the timing of Friday's indictments? If yes; how does that sync with the next sentence in your post (quoted below) that implies the indictments "cast shade" on President Trump's goals?
Even if the response, like blaming Obama for Putin's actions, may be laughable.
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      07-15-2018, 10:48 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Are you suggesting the White House controlled the timing of Friday's indictments? If yes; how does that sync with the next sentence in your post (quoted below) that implies the indictments "cast shade" on President Trump's goals?
Even if the response, like blaming Obama for Putin's actions, may be laughable.
Does anyone understand what the heck this guy is saying?

I am trying to understand your point but you are not making it easy to understand. I asked you to clarify your post and your response was even more cryptic and disjointed!
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      07-15-2018, 11:00 AM   #25
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what's difficult to understand?

Trump needed to reshape the narrative. He couldn't continue to just say that Putin denies the meddling when it was inevitable that the fact that he knew about the pending indictment before the meeting would come out. So he did the usual, he chummed the waters.
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      07-15-2018, 11:36 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer View Post
Trump needed to reshape the narrative. He couldn't continue to say that Putin denies the meddling when it was inevitable that the fact that he knew about the pending indictment before the meeting would come out. So he did the usual, he chummed the waters.
The fact is Putin will deny the meddling no matter how strong the evidence proves otherwise. We should all agree on that. Keep in mind... Indictments are only one-sided accusations, and deliver only a promise that there will be evidence provided later to support the charges. As President Trump said... We shouldn't expect any Perry Mason moment in Helsinki where Putin says "gee- I did it, I did it, you got me." (Reference 1:45 in the attached video)



However I want to stay focused on the notion that the White House controlled the timing of the release of Friday's indictments. I have not seen one person even suggest this; probably because the White House actively participating in the Russia investigation would be a huge (YUUUGE) story if it were true.

What I have seen is people suggest that the timing was unhelpful, as well as people suggest the timing was beneficial. That's why I think the topic of timing is interesting. People are all over the place on this. You obviously believe the timing of Friday's indictments was beneficial... Maybe it was, maybe not. I'm not sure Rod Rosenstein intended them to be beneficial to President Trump but I wholly concede that the entire topic is debatable.
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      07-15-2018, 12:00 PM   #27
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I'm not sure what you're after here...

We know that Trump was informed prior to Friday's announcement. I'm sure that DOJ would have delayed for a few days if a request was framed as being in the national interest. This in no way inserts the White House into the meddling probe: it's just normal protocol. Nor does it negate the fact that the timing is interesting regardless of the exact timing of the announcement.
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      07-15-2018, 12:04 PM   #28
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What is actually amazing is that the Deputy Ag supposedly briefed Trump on all aspects of the indictments (indictments are not "one sided"-they are decided by an impartial grand jury based upon a clear preponderance of evidence) and after the briefings,Trump in England stuck with his bogus "witch hunt" claim. Sad.
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      07-15-2018, 12:23 PM   #29
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talking points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishbimmer View Post
What is actually amazing is that the Deputy Ag supposedly briefed Trump on all aspects of the indictments (indictments are not "one sided"-they are decided by an impartial grand jury based upon a clear preponderance of evidence) and after the briefings,Trump in England stuck with his bogus "witch hunt" claim. Sad.
Trump pundits were even suggesting that Mueller was "off the reservation" by looking at Russian meddling per se, and accusing him of politicizing a pure counter-intelligence investigation that should have been pursued elsewhere.
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      07-15-2018, 12:39 PM   #30
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...indictments are not "one sided"-they are decided by an impartial grand jury based upon a clear preponderance of evidence...
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't been subjected to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
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      07-15-2018, 12:57 PM   #31
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Right right. Yet alll these little rich NATO countries expect us to defend them if and when shit hits the fan but also foot the bill. Yeah fuck that, 2% is not much to ask for.
What's that got to do with the indictments and the meeting in Helsinki?
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      07-15-2018, 12:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
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      07-15-2018, 01:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
For the prosecution to obtain an indictment, evidence must be presented that shows there is likelihood that criminal activity took place. I never said it was a trial-if there is evidence, that down't mean its one-sided. In this case-its the department of justice and the special prosecutor defending our country against a foreign invasion.
If you want to defend the Russians and their behavior, as the "one-sided" comment seems to indicate, you are likely in the minority.
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      07-15-2018, 01:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
We are actually in agreement here. Everyone should respect your analogy and remind themselves that just like when you're arrested, there is a presumption of innocence. An arrest, just like an indictment, simply doesn't equal guilt. It is only an accusation; however substantiated the accusations may be.

It is extremely easy to assume that friday's indictments in particular will never actually see a trial. This means the charges will likely never be challenged with a wholehearted defense. Everyone has to realize that this reality, to say nothing of the patriotism involved, makes issuing these accusations very easy for Mr. Rosenstein.
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      07-15-2018, 02:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishbimmer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
If you want to defend the Russians and their behavior, as the "one-sided" comment seems to indicate, you are likely in the minority.
My comments about indictments not being equal to a conviction should not indicate anything other than my support for one of the most sacred principles in the American criminal justice system. That a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.
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      07-15-2018, 02:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
We are actually in agreement here. Everyone should respect your analogy and remind themselves that just like when you're arrested, there is a presumption of innocence. An arrest, just like an indictment, simply doesn't equal guilt. It is only an accusation; however substantiated the accusations may be.

It is extremely easy to assume that friday's indictments in particular will never actually see a trial. This means the charges will likely never be challenged with a wholehearted defense. Everyone has to realize that this reality, to say nothing of the patriotism involved, makes issuing these accusations very easy for Mr. Rosenstein to make.
Is this why Manafort is being held in solitary confinement, prior to his hearing?
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      07-15-2018, 02:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
We are actually in agreement here. Everyone should respect your analogy and remind themselves that just like when you're arrested, there is a presumption of innocence. An arrest, just like an indictment, simply doesn't equal guilt. It is only an accusation; however substantiated the accusations may be.

It is extremely easy to assume that friday's indictments in particular will never actually see a trial. This means the charges will likely never be challenged with a wholehearted defense. Everyone has to realize that this reality, to say nothing of the patriotism involved, makes issuing these accusations very easy for Mr. Rosenstein to make.
Is this why Manafort is being held in solitary confinement, prior to his hearing?
No.
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      07-15-2018, 02:39 PM   #38
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There's a huge imbalance in NATO funding, and has been for many years - this from 2011:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gates-c...h-does-us-pay/

The Obama administration criticized it but did nothing; at least Trump is doing something.
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      07-15-2018, 02:40 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
We are actually in agreement here. Everyone should respect your analogy and remind themselves that just like when you're arrested, there is a presumption of innocence. An arrest, just like an indictment, simply doesn't equal guilt. It is only an accusation; however substantiated the accusations may be.

It is extremely easy to assume that friday's indictments in particular will never actually see a trial. This means the charges will likely never be challenged with a wholehearted defense. Everyone has to realize that this reality, to say nothing of the patriotism involved, makes issuing these accusations very easy for Mr. Rosenstein to make.
Is this why Manafort is being held in solitary confinement, prior to his hearing?
No.
Aaaaaand???
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      07-15-2018, 02:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
We are actually in agreement here. Everyone should respect your analogy and remind themselves that just like when you're arrested, there is a presumption of innocence. An arrest, just like an indictment, simply doesn't equal guilt. It is only an accusation; however substantiated the accusations may be.

It is extremely easy to assume that friday's indictments in particular will never actually see a trial. This means the charges will likely never be challenged with a wholehearted defense. Everyone has to realize that this reality, to say nothing of the patriotism involved, makes issuing these accusations very easy for Mr. Rosenstein to make.
Is this why Manafort is being held in solitary confinement, prior to his hearing?
No.
Aaaaaand???

Do you really not know this?

First we don't actually know what Manafort's confinement details are since they haven't been released due to "security concerns." But the official reason he is confined before his trial is because he was allegedly caught witness tampering.

How is this relevant to the thread?

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      07-15-2018, 03:15 PM   #41
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Hey my family is all white. Who'll take them in while I go take a few bullets for liberal values of the world?
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
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      07-15-2018, 03:40 PM   #42
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well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
My comments about indictments not being equal to a conviction should not indicate anything other than my support for one of the most sacred principles in the American criminal justice system. That a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.
One can hope that Trump demands extradition, even though it will never happen. Personally I'm not generally a fan of trying people in absentia but I think I could make an exception for GRU officers.
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      07-15-2018, 03:49 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You are just incorrect on this one. Indictments are only one sided accusations because they haven't subject to a full legal defense yet. Only "one side" has presented the grand jury with their argument. If indictments were definitive there would be no need for a trial!
It is true that an indictment doesn't equate to a full legal defense. But an indictment does mean that evidence has been presented, and a grand jury has determined that there is probable cause that a crime has been committed, ie the same standard by which the police are allowed to make arrests.
We are actually in agreement here. Everyone should respect your analogy and remind themselves that just like when you're arrested, there is a presumption of innocence. An arrest, just like an indictment, simply doesn't equal guilt. It is only an accusation; however substantiated the accusations may be.

It is extremely easy to assume that friday's indictments in particular will never actually see a trial. This means the charges will likely never be challenged with a wholehearted defense. Everyone has to realize that this reality, to say nothing of the patriotism involved, makes issuing these accusations very easy for Mr. Rosenstein to make.
Is this why Manafort is being held in solitary confinement, prior to his hearing?
No.
Aaaaaand???

Do you really not know this?

First we don't actually know what Manafort's confinement details are since they haven't been released due to "security concerns." But the official reason he is confined before his trial is because he was allegedly caught witness tampering.

How is this relevant to the thread?

His lawyers said he's being held in solitary - which would make one think (Mueller's) prosecution is leaning on him, to force him (and perhaps others) to cooperate, vs. simply administering justice - which was the point of the post I replied to.

However, in digging a bit more, it appears that "solitary" just means he's kept by himself, vs. in a 12x8 cell in "the hole." So that's likely just lawyering...
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      07-15-2018, 03:51 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
My comments about indictments not being equal to a conviction should not indicate anything other than my support for one of the most sacred principles in the American criminal justice system. That a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.
One can hope that Trump demands extradition, even though it will never happen. Personally I'm not generally a fan of trying people in absentia but I think I could make an exception for GRU officers.
Sounds like one is hoping, and hoping, and HOPING... that Trump is impeached, and flees the country?

Is one hoping that Hillary gets somehow appointed to finish Trump's term?

Keep hoping - there's a unicorn at the end of that rainbow!
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