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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Diesels in the USA?



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      12-20-2005, 12:58 PM   #23
fredtoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3
Diesels don't rev high enough... I find this is what keeps me away from them I truly love BMWs free-reving gasoline engines
Stop looking at the redline.
It is lower on the diesel, but so what?
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      12-20-2005, 02:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtoo
Stop looking at the redline.
It is lower on the diesel, but so what?
Exactly what I was going to say! So what if the redline is only at 4500-5000rpm. It doesn't change the cars performance. Not to start any flame wars here but looking at the specs, a 320d against a 323i would be a pretty even race for the most part.

Sometimes I just don't understand what people have against diesels. Especially BMW diesels. This is the first diesel I've actually owned (rented plenty before) and I'm having an absolute blast. A 330d would have been nicer, but after not having a car for 6 months, waiting another longer for the 330d just wasn't an option.
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      12-20-2005, 02:10 PM   #25
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Diesel is the best... I hope BMW will bring diesel to USA
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      12-20-2005, 02:16 PM   #26
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I concur. On a recent trip home to the UK, I rented a diesel Passat and was totally impressed. You would hardly know it was a diesel and its mid-range motorway passing power was very apparent. Nice car.

Diesels aren't noisy and smelly any more.

The only downside to having them here (in the US) is that diesel costs more than gasoline. Granted this is somewhat offset by the better economy but in Europe, it has always been cheaper (if my memory serves me correct).
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      12-20-2005, 02:33 PM   #27
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I just really like the higher revs of a gasoline engine... a high-revving BMW sounds so good and just has a breath-taking climax... I enjoy that... I just like how gasoline BMW's make power... its not something very tangible it is just personal preference.

I don't have anything against Diesel... the just don't rev enough for my tastes.
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      12-20-2005, 02:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMD
The only downside to having them here (in the US) is that diesel costs more than gasoline. Granted this is somewhat offset by the better economy but in Europe, it has always been cheaper (if my memory serves me correct).
I didn't realise diesel was more expensive in the US. Is it taxed higher or something because I believe that diesel is easier and therefore cheaper to refine than petrol. But you're right. Diesel is cheaper than petrol here in Europe.

Where I fill up it's about €1.08/litre for regular diesel and €1.15/litre for ultimate diesel. Petrol is €1.22/litre for regular (91??), €1.24/litre for super (95??), and €1.32/litre for ultimate (100). Coupled with higher fuel efficiency, the cost savings are clear.

I'll leave the conversion to gallons for the rest of you..
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      12-20-2005, 02:44 PM   #29
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Anyone know why diesel is about 10% - 25% above the cost of gas now? If memory serves me, it used to be about 10% less in the past.
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      12-20-2005, 02:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc
Anyone know why diesel is about 10% - 25% above the cost of gas now? If memory serves me, it used to be about 10% less in the past.
Taxes. :mad:
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      12-20-2005, 03:02 PM   #31
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Taxes? The only states with higher taxes on diesel than gas are Florida and Vermont, and that only amounts to a few pennies.
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      12-20-2005, 03:17 PM   #32
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To a certain extent diesel prices will go up a little during winter because there is extra demand from the heating oil market. But it doesn't make sense that it's more expensive than petrol because it's actually cheaper to refine, unless it's taxed more (maybe because of its high sulphur content in the US).

So it really does sound like a bunch of
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      12-20-2005, 03:30 PM   #33
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But why is it now more than premium? Why can they market diesel at a higher price? Seven sister 'BS' is not an explanation.
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      12-20-2005, 03:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoo085
I didn't realise diesel was more expensive in the US. Is it taxed higher or something because I believe that diesel is easier and therefore cheaper to refine than petrol. But you're right. Diesel is cheaper than petrol here in Europe.

Where I fill up it's about €1.08/litre for regular diesel and €1.15/litre for ultimate diesel. Petrol is €1.22/litre for regular (91??), €1.24/litre for super (95??), and €1.32/litre for ultimate (100). Coupled with higher fuel efficiency, the cost savings are clear.

I'll leave the conversion to gallons for the rest of you..
Fuel tax is extremely low in the US. (We lack a well developed national public transportation system).

So I'm guessing your gas is higher because it's taxed greater. I read sometime ago, the cost benefit ratio of gasoline/diesel isn't as far off as people think.
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      12-20-2005, 03:54 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom
So I'm guessing your gas is higher because it's taxed greater. I read sometime ago, the cost benefit ratio of gasoline/diesel isn't as far off as people think.
Well yes, that's a give. Here in Germany, I believe the taxes account for about half??

But how can the cost benefit not be as large? When I'm paying €0.14 less than regular petrol as well as using anywhere between 3-5 litres less per 100km?? Maybe not in one week, but over a number of years the savings are pretty apparent.

But anyway, I think the question that's being asked by some people is why in the US diesel is [now] more expensive than petrol.
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      12-20-2005, 03:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc
But why is it now more than premium? Why can they market diesel at a higher price? Seven sister 'BS' is not an explanation.
I have driving a diesel van for years, the diesel price always goes up in the winter, along with home heating oil. It's the same thing.
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      12-20-2005, 04:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom
I know it's been said many times, but I'll say it again. US diesel is currently too dirty (ie. high sulphur) and is scheduled to switch to lower sulphur variant in the next couple of years. California/Mass emissions standards are also be a factor, hence the "50 state" comment.

California has nothing to do with it. During the Ronald Reagan era some group was trying to get the Big 3 and the oil companies to begin producing "real" diesel. Kinda like when Carter wanted us to convert to metric.... which we should've done.

Diesel is the backbone of our infrastructure and all the semi-tructs would have to be converted over to the eurostandard real diesel fuel. It's is not as easy as saying it nor is it being pushed by CALIFORNIA. California is a great test bed for why we need cleaner fuel, though !
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      12-20-2005, 04:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett
California has nothing to do with it. During the Ronald Reagan era some group was trying to get the Big 3 and the oil companies to begin producing "real" diesel. Kinda like when Carter wanted us to convert to metric.... which we should've done.

Diesel is the backbone of our infrastructure and all the semi-tructs would have to be converted over to the eurostandard real diesel fuel. It's is not as easy as saying it nor is it being pushed by CALIFORNIA. California is a great test bed for why we need cleaner fuel, though !

I was thinking that no matter how clean the diesel is, it wouldn't meet CA air quality standards. I heard Mass. outlaws diesel autos.
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      12-20-2005, 04:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoo085
Well yes, that's a give. Here in Germany, I believe the taxes account for about half??

But how can the cost benefit not be as large? When I'm paying €0.14 less than regular petrol as well as using anywhere between 3-5 litres less per 100km?? Maybe not in one week, but over a number of years the savings are pretty apparent.

But anyway, I think the question that's being asked by some people is why in the US diesel is [now] more expensive than petrol.


Because only 2% of anything uses diesel. We use such very little of it here in America, therefor, we refine it in ultra small quantities compaired to gasoline. The only vehichles on the roads that do use diesel is semi-trucks and the occasional late model Mercedes.
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      12-20-2005, 04:26 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoo085
Well yes, that's a give. Here in Germany, I believe the taxes account for about half??

But how can the cost benefit not be as large? When I'm paying €0.14 less than regular petrol as well as using anywhere between 3-5 litres less per 100km?? Maybe not in one week, but over a number of years the savings are pretty apparent.

But anyway, I think the question that's being asked by some people is why in the US diesel is [now] more expensive than petrol.
Probably a combination of pricing (oil companies know you get more mpg, so they raise the price to compensate for less fill ups. Most diesel sold in the US is bought by commercial businesses). I believe, unlike gasoline, diesel isn't a byproduct of the refining process.


This is what I mean when I said cost/benefit ratio for gas vs diesel is about the same. Simply put, diesel cars are more expensive than their gasoline counterparts. Consequently, the savings in fuel economy is offset by the cost of buying the car equiped with a diesel engine. I read somewhere you wouldn't realize a net benefit until somwhere around 100k miles. Same theory holds up for hybrid vehicles. Most people unload their cars well before that mileage.

Another aspect that is quickly overlooked is the incentive to drive more miles. People tend to drive more miles when they know they're getting better mpg. In the end, the individual burns just as much fuel as he would with the less efficient(sp?)/less driven automobile.
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      12-20-2005, 04:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom
Simply put, diesel cars are more expensive than their gasoline counterparts.
You may have a point there if you're talking about purchase price. The difference between a base 320i and 320d is €3,050 in favour of the 320i. But when you compare the 330d and 330i, the difference is only €1,000. When you start moving up into the 5er, the difference between a 525d and 525i is only €300 and a 530d and 530i is only €650.

So, the 320d is probably the most expensive compared to a similar engine size petrol. On the other hand though, most people in Germany keep their car for a long time. It's not uncommon to see a car with 200,000 or even 300,000km on the clock. But even when sold, the resale price of a 320d would be higher than a 320i of the same age and mileage. So in the end, I still believe that even though the purchase price may be higher, mile-for-mile the diesels win out with their higher fuel efficiency, cheaper pump price, and lower overall maintenance costs.
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      12-20-2005, 09:28 PM   #42
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One significant clue is the fairly recent (last couple of years?) change in the relative pricing of diesel/petrol in the US. My fuzzy memory has diesel slowly creeping up and surpassing petrol in 2004. Any data? Hypotheses?
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      12-21-2005, 05:30 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3
Diesels don't rev high enough... I find this is what keeps me away from them I truly love BMWs free-reving gasoline engines
with enough torque, and proper gearing

you won't miss revving at all
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      12-21-2005, 06:45 PM   #44
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Part of the reason diesels are perceived as dirtier here in the US is that they are dirtier (here in the US). As was pointed out above, our diesel is filthy, but it will get a lot better soon. Of course that's ignoring the very promising growth in availability of biodiesel which is generally much (much) cleaner. It's also more solvent, so it keeps the engine cleaner in general. The only problems with biodiesel right now are variability (some places make it cleaner/better than others) and availability.

Diesel engines generate way more torque than gasoline engines, but with less top end. Everyone I've talked to who has driven a 330d has loved it. Frankly, I rarely go 150 mph so I'm not all that worried about losing a little of the top.

Bring on the 330xd, I'll fill it with bio-d!

Shane
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