1er coupe U.S. price point???

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by TheUltimateDriver

If the 135i is priced higher than a G37 it certainly will be a tough sell for BMW considering the G37 is a direct competitor with the 335i.

Very much true. I know I would personally start looking at the G37 if the 135i was more expensive. I would rather have the 135i but you can only afford what you can afford.

I think one thing that many people have overlooked is the power of the options. Who says that a base 135i cant be price at or below 33,000 if the most popular options are quite pricey? Consider that the average Premium Package on a BMW costs upwards of 3 grand and you would already have yourself a 37,000 dollar 135i. I would really like to see BMW give the 135i only minimal standard equipment (performance equipment standard/luxury optional). That way the person who sees the 135i as a high-performance sports car can afford it and the person who sees the 135i as a luxury coupe can get it equipped as such.

[hector]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

That'll put some pressure on a $35K starting price for the 135 seeing as how the the G37 is compared to the 335i.."

it should do just that which is good but the interesting thing is that while the G is compared to the 3 the 1 doesn't really have an analogue i.e a small rear-drive subcompact/small compact. so while the G may indeed be a better value by the pound if you simply want a smaller more nimble vehicle would you get the G? i mean isn't this forum full of people who lost interest in the 3 because of it's growth(dimensionally) and as for the G i think that it weighs even more than the 335(3700lbs. or so.) i'm just not sure that i can get away from the 1. if i decide that the 1 is not a good value i might go the route of a, sorry, fwd compact in the 2800lb. range rather than a G or 335.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by MPower

Very much true. I know I would personally start looking at the G37 if the 135i was more expensive. I would rather have the 135i but you can only afford what you can afford.

I think one thing that many people have overlooked is the power of the options. Who says that a base 135i cant be price at or below 33,000 if the most popular options are quite pricey? Consider that the average Premium Package on a BMW costs upwards of 3 grand and you would already have yourself a 37,000 dollar 135i. I would really like to see BMW give the 135i only minimal standard equipment (performance equipment standard/luxury optional). That way the person who sees the 135i as a high-performance sports car can afford it and the person who sees the 135i as a luxury coupe can get it equipped as such.

That's why I'm very curious about how BMW will package the 135i. Based upon information released to date, I'm expecting it to be a M Sport and that's why I would not be surprised by a ~$36K price tag.

Unfortunately I'm not privy to BMW's marketing strategy, but I would think that a true base 135i minus the M bits would make more more sense. However I suspect that including the M Sport will lower the effective cost of the package and maybe let BMW sell the 135 at or below $35K. We can hope.

[hector]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

... I'm expecting it to be a M Sport...
but I would think that a true base 135i minus the M bits would make more more sense....

agreed, i posted it once before but i'll repeat that i hope that the sport package is not standard. i personally am looking at this car as a daily driver to be driven long distances over crappy roads. i really want no lower than a 50 series tire on it for the ride and resistance to road hazards. if it comes standard with 35/40s that may blow it for me. if it can't be my dd then i might rather get a true sports car(370zx or supra) and keep the dd that i have.

[ZweierCoupe]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

That'll put some pressure on a $35K starting price for the 135 seeing as how the the G37 is compared to the 335i.

You must really be dreaming to assert this! Allow me to provide some perspective.

The G37 isn't even in the same performance league as the 135i. By comparison, the Nissan car has less torque and slower acceleration, is much heavier, and, in my opinion, the styling is even worse (simplistic and unrefined, as though it was some student project out of Pasadena) than the most awful Bangle bungle. I think BMW is more concerned about BMW owners considering a transition to Porsche or Audi than enticing traditional drivers of copy-cat or derivative cars made by Japanese companies. BMW has had some problems with its design, and the 135i is one of its first cars in a long while that promises to be a "home run". Discounting a car with such qualities would be utterly ridiculous.

No premium German manufacturer stoops down to match the price of a Japanese car that appeals more to the people who don't appreciate refined engineering and technology. What the purchaser of the Japenese car saves in purchasing price will more than likely be lost in accelerated long term depreciation.

I interpret the fact, that the Nissan has just announced that its G37 will start at $35, as a positive cue for BMW, or a green light, for the 135i to be priced at least few thousand dollars more. I think I've alread made the case in previous posts within this thread, that the most likely starting price of the 135i (as equipped in Germany) would be $37450 or $37950, including the destination charge. When I hinted at the possibility of an even higher price than that recently, I also took into account the notion that the 135i will essentially be seen as a completely new type of car in the US because the hatchback 1-series haven't been offered there. Hence, it will also be marketed differently than in Europe, as is already evident at the BMWUSA site, which stresses the association with the 2002 much more.

BMW has plenty of configuration possibilities regarding the intentionally deferred American debut of the 135i. For instance, if the car gets dynamite reviews in the motoring press this fall and turns in an excellent Nürburgring time (say, virtually equivalent to that of a Cayman S), $37.5K may be seen as being to cheap for this degree of performance. Of course an elevated price (still a bargain) may surpass the threshold for some, but these folks will then be more likely than not to buy a less expensive BMW rather than a less expensive Audi or Nissan. If the 135i gets numerous accolades in the press, it would make perfect sense for BMW, in maintaining the image of this car, to add certain options. Three options in the German versions (according to my brochure) that could easily be offered as "standard" in the American versions are (1) halogen lights, (2) leather interior (roughly $1450), and (3) adaptive headlights. Such high quality standard features would likely be ordered by dealers and most individuals anyway, so why try to fake out the consumer with a superficially low introductory price, as opposed to making a point, that these features already come as standard? Under such a scenrio the price (say, $39950) and perceived quality of the 135i would live up to the hype generated by the media.

BMW sets the benchmark in the industry for production logistics sophistication. No other car manufacturer comes close. A customer who puts in an order is able to still change the specifications (colors and option configuration) within less than a week before the car goes into production. BMW has learned that this flexibility is quite profitable because customers tend to upgrade their initial orders as this deadline approaches. So if American consumers gets a car directly from the dealer lot it will hardly be the stripped down version and if they do choose to put in an order for a more stripped down version, they'll likely upgrade during the waiting period. The result will be the same, so why should BMW play a silly "bait and switch" type of game by announcing a superficially low introductory price for a hot model, as opposed to being up-front and able to enhance its image vis a vis such relative upstart brand names as Infiniti or Lexus?

[atr_hugo]

Sheesh - based on your reasoning I should pay them to walk into the showroom ; -)

Sorry BMW can't afford to be that arrogant with their pricing - maybe they can stretch the 135 pricing to $37K if they want it to be a halo for the 1 series in the US, but the 128/135 ratio will be over 9 to 1 in the process and if the 128i is closer to $30K than $20K then kiss sales to Gen-Y goodbye. There are options regardless of how 'swell' BMW is.

The US market is very price/size sensitive and if there are viable alternatives that are larger at nearly equal or lower price points, Americans will jump on them and leave the 'vaunted' 135i to vegetate on dealer's flooplans. Sorry - I've been around this too often in the past to buy into what you're preaching.

[larryn]

Most of us insane fanatics that are kissing the 135's ass every day on these formums would bail if it came in anywhere near $37k. The 135i is an enthusiasts car, otherwise, the ordinary buyer would get an E92 328i for less $$ instead of the 135i.

[SCA]

Originally Posted by larryn

Most of us insane fanatics that are kissing the 135's ass every day on these formums would bail if it came in anywhere near $37k. The 135i is an enthusiasts car, otherwise, the ordinary buyer would get an E92 328i for less $$ instead of the 135i.

[Brookside]

Originally Posted by larryn

Most of us insane fanatics that are kissing the 135's ass every day on these formums would bail if it came in anywhere near $37k. The 135i is an enthusiasts car, otherwise, the ordinary buyer would get an E92 328i for less $$ instead of the 135i.

[ZweierCoupe]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

Sorry BMW can't afford to be that arrogant with their pricing - maybe they can stretch the 135 pricing to $37K if they want it to be a halo for the 1 series in the US, but the 128/135 ratio will be over 9 to 1 in the process and if the 128i is closer to $30K than $20K then kiss sales to Gen-Y goodbye. There are options regardless of how 'swell' BMW is.

The US market is very price/size sensitive and if there are viable alternatives that are larger at nearly equal or lower price points, Americans will jump on them and leave the 'vaunted' 135i to vegetate on dealer's flooplans. Sorry - I've been around this too often in the past to buy into what you're preaching.

BMW pricing is less arrogant than Mercedes and substantially less arrogant than Porsche. And what would you say about Audi charging $35 for its 3.2 liter A3 Sportback?

So what if BMW sells far more 128 than 135 models? I'm not preaching anything here but just being straightforward about the realities. It's better for illusions to be deflated now rather than half a year from now. In Europe, where there are indeed more options than in the US, consumers pay much more.

What viable alternative is there to the 135i anyway? Certainly not any Japanese or American car. Perhaps Audi could make a decent A3 quattro coupé with a trunk, but they don't have plans to do so. The only alternative I can think of is a used Cayman S.

Since BMW is producing at full capacity they can afford to refrain from chasing after price sensitive consumers at an even lower price point.

Why don't you wait until the end of next year, and by then they might already offer the 1 series coupé with the 272 horsepower 3.0 liter engine? In three or four years BMW will come out with a front-wheel drive car with transverse 4-cylinder engine, essentially a more upscale Mini. If the Mini sells well in the US, perhaps these front-wheel drive BMWs will be available in America.

Originally Posted by larryn

Most of us insane fanatics that are kissing the 135's ass every day on these formums would bail if it came in anywhere near $37k. The 135i is an enthusiasts car, otherwise, the ordinary buyer would get an E92 328i for less $$ instead of the 135i.

Laudatory magazine reviews and advertising helps generate enthusiasts. I think there will be plenty of enthusiasts lining up to buy the 135i. I don't quite understand on what basis so many people were thinking that the 135i would go for less than $36K. Do some research regarding what one paid fifteen years ago (when the dollar was also very weak) for a new 2.5 liter E36 coupé, which is just slightly longer than the 135i. Taking into account inflation, and considerable performance , handling, safety, and mileage improvements, one could argue that the 135i at $37.5K is a comparatively better value.

[Brookside]

37.5? No way. Again, good reasoning Zweir but your numbers are formulas
and I don't think they'll hold up.

We should be seeing a lot of "first drives" and "first impressions" by lucky journalists who get a spin in some pre-production models and repros/design analysis of the first press pics appearing in print in the next few weeks to coincide with the Frankfurt debut...no doubt there will be some broad hints (dropped by BMW) of what N/A market can expect in regard to 128/135 msrp's.

[atr_hugo]

You don't get it do you? It's not about my desire to keep a price under $37K so I can afford it - my finance committee has authorized a new car up to a Cayman S - I'll cover the $37K with a sale of stock options - this isn't about me. Your condescending attitude is one of the reasons I don't care for Porsche owners - I was hoping BMW owners would be better, but if the rest of them are like you I'll find something else to purchase.

But to get back on track, this is about what the US market will bear. You obviously don't understand the US market.

The car ceases to be a value to people once it gets close to $40K - as members of this community have said.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

You don't get it do you? It's not about my desire to keep a price under $37K so I can afford it - my finance committee has authorized a new car up to a Cayman S - I'll cover the $37K with a sale of stock options - this isn't about me. This is about what the US market will bear. You obviously don't understand the US market.

The car ceases to be a value to poeple once it gets close to $40K - as members of this community have said.

Perfectly stated. There is way too much arrogance in the prices that ZweierCoupe is throwing out. To dismiss Japanese and American competition is an attitude that will only lead to a sales failure. Ive said this before, the main reason most of us are 1addicts for the time being is price. If we all knew that the 135i would start around 38,000, with value going way, way out of the window, we wouldnt be here discussing every aspect of the car. You can get a lot of 300 horsepower cars for much less than that. BMW will make a massive mistake if they price the base model higher than 35,000.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by Brookside

37.5? No way. Again, good reasoning Zweir but your numbers are formulas
and I don't think they'll hold up.

We should be seeing a lot of "first drives" and "first impressions" by lucky journalists who get a spin in some pre-production models and repros/design analysis of the first press pics appearing in print in the next few weeks to coincide with the Frankfurt debut...no doubt there will be some broad hints (dropped by BMW) of what N/A market can expect in regard to 128/135 msrp's.

His original calculation came up:

0.8723 * $40,800 = $35,590 not including destination

I don't think that it's too far off the mark and since it's based on current prices I suspect that the number will increase along with BMW's other prices for the upcoming model year.

I'm still a little confused by BMW's marketing strategy if the base 135i is only offered as an M Sport, which is what they are doing in Europe. It makes the gap larger between the 128i and the 135i. They haven't done this with the 335i coupe where there is a base version and the ZSP package is offered as an option.

Maybe the rumors of a future M1 are true and the 135i M Sport will only be available for a couple of years? Then the 128i will bow out to a 130i and the 4 cylinder diesels wil be offered on the new entry level 1ers. Then again maybe I'm dreaming in the same realms as those hoping for a $32K 135i. :wink:

[MastaMind]

Originally Posted by MPower

Perfectly stated. There is way too much arrogance in the prices that ZweierCoupe is throwing out. To dismiss Japanese and American competition is an attitude that will only lead to a sales failure. Ive said this before, the main reason most of us are 1addicts for the time being is price. If we all knew that the 135i would start around 38,000, with value going way, way out of the window, we wouldnt be here discussing every aspect of the car. You can get a lot of 300 horsepower cars for much less than that. BMW will make a massive mistake if they price the base model higher than 35,000.

This is exactly what I would have said if you didn't beat me to it. :w00t:

[joelk]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

You don't get it do you? It's not about my desire to keep a price under $37K so I can afford it - my finance committee has authorized a new car up to a Cayman S - I'll cover the $37K with a sale of stock options - this isn't about me. Your condescending attitude is one of the reasons I don't care for Porsche owners - I was hoping BMW owners would be better, but if the rest of them are like you I'll find something else to purchase.

But to get back on track, this is about what the US market will bear. You obviously don't understand the US market.

The car ceases to be a value to people once it gets close to $40K - as members of this community have said.

[eMINI]

ZweierCoupe, I kind of like your arrogant attitude. It's very German. Just remember that that same kind of stubborn, condescending attitude opened the door for Toyota (Lexus) and Honda (Acura) in America not that long ago... All because they just couldn't believe we really wanted (gasp!) cupholders badly enough to buy someone else's product. :wink:

[ZweierCoupe]

It's important, when drawing price comparisons, not to mix "apples and oranges". I mean this in a temporal sense now. We've been told that the 1 series coupé and cabrio will be introduced simultaneously in the American market, in the early spring (people tend not to buy cabrios until it gets nice and warm). This likely means March 2008. Infiniti has waited until three weeks before its G37 models will be availabe, this month, to announce its pricing for them. It is reasonable to think that BMW would wait until March 2008 to announce prices for the American 1-series models, so as to take into account the latest economic, sales, and competitive information. So when I'm talking about 135i price ranges, I'm generally referring to what I assume the likely price will be next April, eight months from now, including the dealer destination charge (i.e. shipping). Obviously, that future, total price is not the same as a current price without the dealer destination charge.

A lot can happen in eight months at the economic level to influence prices, and all car companies reserve their right to adjust their pricing to reflect changing business situations. It is widely expected that before the end of this year the American Federal Reserve will lower interest rates in attempt to avert a pending economic crisis associated with a real estate bubble. For months they have no longer published M3 money supply data, so as to mask their flooding the world with dollars, which normally would bring on severe inflation. The financial markets are polite but are catching on. In contrast, the European Central bank is expecting to raise interest rates. This differential will obviously impact the $/€ exchange rate. Furthermore, countries with considerable dollar holdings in Treasury bills, like Japan, China, South Korea, and others are slowly diversifying their excessive dollar denomnated holdings to a healthier mix. Aside from that, some countries are moving away from pricing their oil exports in dollars. And, as we all know, the American government budget deficit goes higher, and the trade deficit gets worse. Obviously, such developments must result in a weaker dollar and higher inflation. This means that Japanese cars will go up in price too. And of course the basis of what we're discussing, the price of the 135i, is published in Euros.

After having shown that the 135i price, if equipped as in Germany and if sold today, would not be under $36K based on (a) the important principle that BMW would not sell it below what their employees get it for before taxes, (b) the notion that the price ratio between 135i and 335i in Germany would likely be the same as in the US, and (c) the published US price of a vaguely similar Bavarian competitor, I then proceeded to presume a possible low threshold price next April ($37.5K) based on previously announced (but unspecified) price hikes for BMWs and economic circumstances, such as continued inflation and likely dollar depreciation. Additionally, I suggested that market forces and laudatory reviews would give BMW the option of including additional, highly desirable options in the German versions as standard in the models sold in America, so as to further enhance the cachet of this model, but stated that the price would stay under $40K.

In response, some have apparently attacked the pricing results or the methodology as "arrogant". This seems a bit like a visceral response of "blaming the messenger". But I must ask, who's actually being arrogant here? I find it to be rather arrogant for somebody who apparently had completely irrational and unfounded price expectations about the 135i to still presume or demand, upon having been presented with the dry facts, that BMW and purchasers of BMW cars in other parts of the world should nevertheless effectively subsidize American consumers, as if they were the most important customers in the world; that BMW should throw reason out the window and discount just for Americans a hot car below what the company charges its own employees, as well as below what competitors charge for a less desirable brand! If you think you deserve a special discount for having written messages on this board to help generate a buzz for the car, then that's a completely personal issue that you ought to handle privately, but here we're discussing the price for American consumers. And in all my posts on this thread I haven't provided any price assessments for the rather peculiar 128i because there is no published price for it.

Just imagine what would happen, for the sake of argument, if BMW announced a price of only $34K next March for the 135i, as equipped in Germany. You'd run to your dealer, perhaps because you couldn't get through on the phone, and he might tell you something like "sorry, there's at least a 14 month wait, and we can't even take any additional orders any more right now". Perhaps another dealer would say something like "sorry, all of next year's production is already sold out, but if you're willing to consider a $3000 service or gratuity surcharge, I'll try to see if I can get you one within the next few months, but you'll have to take whatever color and options they have". A third dealer might say something like "forget about, but I have some excellent deals on these 328i models right here, and they cost even less". And you might be wondering something like "why couldn't BMW get their marketing right? - the car is obviously a giveaway at that price; I wouldn't mind paying extra to order exactly the version I want". Any basic Economics lecture will tell you that the market is about supply and demand, and the price is where both curves meet.

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

But to get back on track, this is about what the US market will bear. You obviously don't understand the US market.
The car ceases to be a value to people once it gets close to $40K - as members of this community have said.

Everybody knows that a performance car like the 135i is never going to be a "value". And any car buff knows that BMW doesn't dilute its brand image by offering cars that almost anyone can easily afford. Like it or not, BMW and Porsche are the two most profitable premium brand manufacturers. However, when comparing the 135i with similar cars from competitors, or when looking at what people in other parts of the world have to pay for it, it is still a relative bargain, as I've said before. That's why I suspect that in three very important markets thousands of consumers will readily spend over $40K for nicely optioned 135i models:

(1) Northern California - Bay Area and Sacramento, perhaps BMW's most important American market, with the country's largest dealer in Berkeley; including affluent regions like Silicon Valley, Marin, San Francisco;

(2) Southern California - LA Region, San Diego, Palm Springs; self-evident, and no need to go into detail

(3) Tri-State NY, NJ, CT - Lots of very rich people here too, who appreciate performance bargains but would be caught dead in a Japanese car.

Then there are other markets where people are willing to pay for a quality performance car, ten grand below a 2.7 liter Cayman: Washington DC Metro, Boston Region, Seattle, South Florida, Dallas, Houston.

Now let's take a look at what other car companies believe the American market will bear, based on published prices at which they decided to sell their new cars -- which might be considered by some as possible alternatives to the 135i:

* G37 Coupe Sport 6MT - Yesterday Nissan's Infiniti brand announced the pricing for the model (with close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission): $35,550 + $715 destination charge. Well, looky-look, that adds up to $36265 already, more than what some on this thread just claimed BMW couldn't possibly sell the 135i for! Though this car is sporty, with 19" wheels, it has less torque than the 135i, acceleartes slower, is heavier and less nimble, doesn't seem to have a separate rear trunk, probably has token rear seating, less exciting styling, poorer gas mileage, a heavier engine with less than 90 horsepower per liter output (apparently no direct injection technology), no special option ordering or on site pick-up experience, barely any brand "heritage", and presumably faster depreciation.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...e,150417.shtml

* Audi TT 3.2 Quattro 6-speed - This sporty car has the same weight as the 135i, but at only 250 horsepower and less torque it doesn't accelerate quite as fast and doesn't quite get the same mileage. Rear seats, like with the Porsche 911, are only for kids, and of course there's no separate rear trunk. What does Audi think the American market for this car can handle? Check their web site: $41500 + $720 destination charge. Hey, that's $42220!

Of course there's no guarantee that these prices will still hold by next April. Does a conceivable base price of $40K next April for a nice 135i make more sense now? Duh..

In summary, I hope those of you were fantasizing before have finally woken up and are seeing the real picture. Remember, if you truly want the 135i, you don't have to buy it; you can lease it while waiting for the even more expensive M model to come out.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

Do some research regarding what one paid fifteen years ago (when the dollar was also very weak) for a new 2.5 liter E36 coupé, which is just slightly longer than the 135i. Taking into account inflation, and considerable performance , handling, safety, and mileage improvements, one could argue that the 135i at $37.5K is a comparatively better value.

I don't have to do research. I bought a new '92 e36 325i when they first came out.

There's a reason why the 335i base doesn't overlap the 528i's base price. They don't want to compete with their own offerings. With the 135i, they are hoping to cash in on a whole new demographic, not get a 3er buyer to now buy a 1er. Market share is their top priority, then Brand Image. They'd make the 135i a lame duck by pricing it within a few thousand of the E92 328i.

Enthusiasts willing to pay more for a base 135i would come, but they'd be few and far between, like <1000 units per annum. That car would cause BMWUSA to hemmorage dollars, since it takes a years and many cars sold to recoup the millions it takes to get a car/engine combo approved for the US consumption. Pricing the car up higher would force BMWUSA to admit that it's a money loser from the start. I highly doubt they would do that.

[guyatherton]

Very good and detailed article and makes sense. However the Infiniti G37 coupe is a competitor to the 335i coupe. Admittedly the 335 is several thousand more expensive than the G37 so a 135 could be around the G37 price of $36-37K.

I know you didn`t do an analysis of the 128i because no other market gets the 128 but the assumption is that it will start below $30K (including delivery). Especially since a 2008 328i will be around $34K (including delivery). Do you think the price difference between a 128i and 135i could be $10K ($29K - 39K)?

One other point, do BMW sell any cars in the US at a lower price than BMW Employee pricing? You are assuming they do not, I just wanted to know if that is accurate because it is a key assumption in your analysis.
Thanks again for your detailed comments

[atr_hugo]

You were the one who suggested to me - to me personally - to wait for a lower priced model or maybe I don't fit the profile (read, am not good enough) to buy a 'schportink luxury Cherman automobhile'. So that's where I found the arrogance (and continue to find it in your posts, BTW).

I don't know if you work for BMW, but if you do and your attitude is representative of BMW, then personally I'll go elsewhere.

As to your diatribes on pricing - you still don't get it. The markets you've described are what 'already exists' - the 1er appears (based on the adverstizing we are seeing) to be focused on a new generation of automobile buyers. This generation, Gen-Y, was raised on Japanese imports and for instance the Subaru WRX STi and, to a lesser extent, the Mistu Evo are looked on as viable alternatives. Your dismissal of everything Japanese as beneath contempt vaulted Lexus to the forefront of the US market - with a stinking reworked Camry to boot!! In addition Gen-Y represents the future of car buyers in the US. My generation, Baby boomer, has a few more cars left before we leave the market (permanently ; -). Your marketing discussions match my generations desire for exclusivity above pricing. The Gen-Y folks could care less. And that's the market that's in play. That's where I think you are missing the boat in your pricing arguments. Who does BMW expect to purchase the car. If you have the car in the showrooms and tell prospective buyers, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it". Then you've lost a customer - for life!

[larryn]

This talk about adding delivery charges onto other cars is hooey. Do you think BMW doesn't charge them to us or something? They ship 'em over out of the goodness of their hearts?

BMW wants a bigger market share. They can't do that with a $37k base 135i.

As for me, I'm a local BMW Chapter staff member, Bayrischefahne waving, former and past BMW owner, seven times over, roundel nut and will move elsewhere if it's anywhere near that high. As others have stated in these redundant threads, they would do the same. There's still a handful that would get it, but they'd lose a LOT of us. It would be akin to the 135i committing suicide.