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View Poll Results: Should Trump and Putin's meeting be made public?
Yes - We have the right to know 16 43.24%
No - We do not have the right or the need to know 12 32.43%
Sort of - Give the details to Congress and let them decide what should be public. 9 24.32%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-19-2018, 08:13 AM   #45
hooligan_clt
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Each time I think you've reached rock bottom in your depravity you manage to plumb the depths even deeper.

He's a combat veteran with 20 years of service to OUR country.
You're despicable.
Lot of that going around, ask Anglo.
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      07-19-2018, 10:38 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Do we deserve to know everything that was said? No. Does Congress? Probably.

Do we deserve to know what was said around these claimed military/defense agreements? Absolutely.

"The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is ready for practical implementation of the agreements reached between Russian President Vladimir Putin and US President Donald Trump in the sphere of international security achieved at the Helsinki summit," --Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov
Wait, what?! Putin and Trump reached a military agreement on what? This seems like an important thing for folks on our side to know. Finding this out from a Russian General is maybe not the best.
Why would you believe this statement?
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      07-19-2018, 10:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
That is absolute BS. There are many things that the general public doesn't know and doesn't need to know or have a right to know. I knew about the F-117 stealth fighter long before the American public did. I helped plan Operation Just Cause for Panama and we used the Nighthawks. Most people in the military didn't know we had the Nighthawk and didn't know about the Panama invasion - they didn't need to know and neither did the general public. That's just an example of how "we need to know because we are a representative republic" is just total BS.
Fair enough. But on the flip side, if Trump sold American secrets, or if Trump promised that Putin will be allowed to continue meddling in US elections so long as Trump wins, shouldn't the public have the right to know that?

See, you're assuming that the nature of the talks was a matter of, say, national security (using your F-117 example). I can just as much, with the same confidence, assume that the nature of the talks was a concerted attempt by the US President to undermine the US democratic process for personal gain (likely would be treasonous).

So the question then is: how do we know whether the nature of the talks justified secrecy? This is where the other branches of the government steps in, and this is also where the President will likely invoke executive privilege.

Frankly, I don't see the public's desire to know getting to the point where the Supreme Court has to make a ruling on the breadth of executive privilege; I think much of the public (i.e. the court of public opinion) already believes that Trump pretty much groveled to Putin behind closed doors (since one would think his press conference was a direct reflection and summary of their discussion). If Trump wants to change that narrative, it's up to him to get third person confirmation on what was discussed.
Just stop. You"re out of your depth.
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      07-19-2018, 11:06 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Each time I think you've reached rock bottom in your depravity you manage to plumb the depths even deeper.

He's a combat veteran with 20 years of service to OUR country.
You're despicable.
His prior service is diminished by his steadfast support of a traitor.

edit: And you are just as bad
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      07-19-2018, 11:40 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Way to move the goal posts komrade. Too bad you left your integrity in the air farce.
You're being disrespectful here and are very deliberately trying to make this forum a hostile place. A hostile environment is of no benefit to anyone. The anonymity of the internet can be taken advantage of and leveraged to speak to others in ways one would not dare try to do in person. But we don't tolerate this sort of bullying here, and we expect a higher standard from our users.

Here is a reminder of the rules:

https://bimmerpost.com/forums/announcement.php?f=56&a=2

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Respect. By far the most important rule here. Through the generations of BMW, enthusiasts have come together for the love of the car and the community. So the basic rules of real life apply here, show each other respect and you will get respect as well. Don't bash someone else here because you feel like it. Derogatory or insulting remarks will not be tolerated. This applies to all corners of the site - including posts, profile visitor messages, and thread tags.
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      07-19-2018, 11:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Just stop. You"re out of your depth.
How so? I'm just using basic logical arguments and basic principles of con law. Feel free to correct me.
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      07-19-2018, 12:04 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
the problem with assuming, is it is just that, assuming.

there is no evidence that Trump has or will ever sell secrets or threaten national security, or even directly undermine the US.

if anything was actually agreed upon that would deal with national security, or going to war, or anything that affects you, there are checks and balances in place to assure us that it does not actually happen.

So, you either trust the government as a whole, or you dont. it doesnt really matter if you trust Trump or not.
First, the person I was responding to was himself making the assumption that what was spoken between Trump and Putin rose to the level of national security such that the public has no right to know. I offered a counter assumption that could be equally true.

Second, checks and balances is about concentration of power, not about making sure that a single governmental branch doesn't have sole power to "affect" my life. For example, the President has fairly broad powers granted through Executive orders (which has been broadened over the last decade and a half, particularly after 9/11), all of which "affect" my life.

Third, if Trump did in fact sell state secrets (not saying he did), that would certainly affect my life, regardless of checks and balances.

Finally, trusting the government isn't an all or nothing proposition. Politicians occasionally lie and occasionally tell the truth. To say that I have to "trust the government as a whole or not" is ridiculous.
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