BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-21-2018, 04:50 PM   #67
Soterios
BXR
575
Rep
636
Posts

Drives: 2012 135i
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Missouri

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
There's not one credible study that says that. As of 2017, your "grid" remains >30% coal fueled and >30% natural gas fueled. More importantly, secondary power in the US is almost entirely fossil fuel so the marginal cost of added EVs to the grid are almost pure GHG generating.

The whole idea that EVs are environmentally friendly is a hoax stirred in a nice big jug of kool-aid. Make no mistake, ICE engines are not environmentally friendly either, but the investment in EVs is not the cure ... not even close.

We're in desperate need of a proper, peer reviewed, academic study on the environmental costs of EV versus ICE. From lithium mining to battery disposal to the environmental impact of charging loads. There are none and it's shocking to see governments buy into this without any idea whether they are making things better or worse.
I'm not near my PC to pull this up, but you can pretty easily do the math on greenhouse gas emission. The fact that a coal fire plant and a car both burn fossil fuels does not make them equal. Power plants are considerably more efficient than a car in terms of emissions per power output. Somewhere in the ballpark of 1/2 for coal/gasoline for CO2 emissions.

In terms of lithium mining and recycling, this is something else that, as you said, needs a bit more study. That said, I really doubt that material collection and recycling comes close to what our coal plants are expelling. They're also something we're improving upon. So as I said before, they're getting 'greener' while the ICE isn't (significantly)

Investment greener energy and electric vehicles is absolutely a value added enterprise.

When I get back to work on Monday, I'll try to pull up some good studies to post. For the record. I'm an electrical engineer in the power industry. I work with generation and distribution. This is a constant discussion in my industry.
__________________
2012 135i M Sport Alpine White
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2018, 04:52 PM   #68
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4462
Rep
9,160
Posts

Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
No one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt. A Bolt is an overpriced Fit EV, a Model 3 is at least kind of appealing to people cross shopping the Germans.
I don't believe you can make such a definitive statement like "no one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt." You can see this comparison contained in YouTube videos alone.
Oh, if we're just counting on YouTube, then yes. And we should also probably throw in Airstream trailers and maybe a nice skid steer.
Huh?
YouTube is full of inane content. Someone connecting the dots there isn't quite the same thing as a consumer cross shopping an econobox, fwd micro SUV with a near-lux four door sedan. Just because they're both electric shouldn't open the door to whackadoodle comparisons.

No one gets any attention on here if they compare a Toyota CHR to a 330i, simply because they both have similar ranges and this is a similarly obtuse comparison. Just pull up a picture of both of you don't follow.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2018, 04:59 PM   #69
Dog Face Pony Soldier
2006 TIME Person Of The Year
Dog Face Pony Soldier's Avatar
United_States
9720
Rep
6,445
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [9.74]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
No one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt. A Bolt is an overpriced Fit EV, a Model 3 is at least kind of appealing to people cross shopping the Germans.
I don't believe you can make such a definitive statement like "no one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt." You can see this comparison contained in YouTube videos alone.
Oh, if we're just counting on YouTube, then yes. And we should also probably throw in Airstream trailers and maybe a nice skid steer.
Huh?
YouTube is full of inane content. Someone connecting the dots there isn't quite the same thing as a consumer cross shopping an econobox, fwd micro SUV with a near-lux four door sedan. Just because they're both electric shouldn't open the door to whackadoodle comparisons.

No one gets any attention on here if they compare a Toyota CHR to a 330i, simply because they both have similar ranges and this is a similarly obtuse comparison. Just pull up a picture of both of you don't follow.
You're missing my point. That is, the number of people cross shipping the Model 3 and Bolt is something greater than the zero you seem to believe.
__________________
Appreciate 1
Taskmaster2463.00
      07-21-2018, 08:51 PM   #70
FC4
Brigadier General
2644
Rep
3,393
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: May 2014
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You're missing my point. That is, the number of people cross shipping the Model 3 and Bolt is something greater than the zero you seem to believe.
I know 6 people amongst my closest friends and colleagues who either have or will soon have a Model 3, 4 of which are car enthusiasts. I don't think any of them would know or care about what a "Chevy Bolt" is. Even I would have to Google it to recall what it looks like.
Appreciate 1
Red Bread4462.00
      07-22-2018, 05:46 AM   #71
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
16946
Rep
18,578
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
YouTube is full of inane content. Someone connecting the dots there isn't quite the same thing as a consumer cross shopping an econobox, fwd micro SUV with a near-lux four door sedan. Just because they're both electric shouldn't open the door to whackadoodle comparisons.

No one gets any attention on here if they compare a Toyota CHR to a 330i, simply because they both have similar ranges and this is a similarly obtuse comparison. Just pull up a picture of both of you don't follow.
LOL. There are hundreds of business articles on the topic of will the Bolt affect sales of the Model 3 and vice versa. It was a huge debate on the internet, on this forum, and in business/financial magazines for a good 12 month period.

In the end both vehicles are selling well.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 1
Taskmaster2463.00
      07-22-2018, 05:47 AM   #72
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
16946
Rep
18,578
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I know 6 people amongst my closest friends and colleagues who either have or will soon have a Model 3, 4 of which are car enthusiasts. I don't think any of them would know or care about what a "Chevy Bolt" is. Even I would have to Google it to recall what it looks like.
Which proves....?
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 3
      07-22-2018, 12:46 PM   #73
Dog Face Pony Soldier
2006 TIME Person Of The Year
Dog Face Pony Soldier's Avatar
United_States
9720
Rep
6,445
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [9.74]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I know 6 people amongst my closest friends and colleagues who either have or will soon have a Model 3, 4 of which are car enthusiasts. I don't think any of them would know or care about what a "Chevy Bolt" is. Even I would have to Google it to recall what it looks like.
Which proves....?
...his definition of a car enthusiast is different than mine. That's about it.
__________________
Appreciate 1
Taskmaster2463.00
      07-22-2018, 12:53 PM   #74
wntrsnowg
First Lieutenant
United_States
105
Rep
350
Posts

Drives: 2016 M235i
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (9)

I was really impressed with the Model 3 having driven it a few times. It is not comparable to an M3. It is a semi-sporty sedan with a futuristic minimalist interior, if thats your thing (I liked the interior a lot). I won't buy a Model 3 for multiple reasons: 1) Emerging tech always gets hit hard with problems and depreciation. 2) Too expensive as it is priced in the 50k range. 3) Still not sold on the limitations of an electric vehicle and the driving range compromises that come with it.
Appreciate 0
      07-22-2018, 05:08 PM   #75
JohnnyCanuck
Major
Canada
1254
Rep
1,352
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi RS3
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I'm not near my PC to pull this up, but you can pretty easily do the math on greenhouse gas emission. The fact that a coal fire plant and a car both burn fossil fuels does not make them equal. Power plants are considerably more efficient than a car in terms of emissions per power output. Somewhere in the ballpark of 1/2 for coal/gasoline for CO2 emissions.

In terms of lithium mining and recycling, this is something else that, as you said, needs a bit more study. That said, I really doubt that material collection and recycling comes close to what our coal plants are expelling. They're also something we're improving upon. So as I said before, they're getting 'greener' while the ICE isn't (significantly)

Investment greener energy and electric vehicles is absolutely a value added enterprise.

When I get back to work on Monday, I'll try to pull up some good studies to post. For the record. I'm an electrical engineer in the power industry. I work with generation and distribution. This is a constant discussion in my industry.
My point is broader ... in that we really don't know the stem to stern environmental impacts of EVs vs. ICE. When I consider environmental impacts, I am not just considering GHGs, but the vast habitat and other environmental damage caused by constructing hydro-electric dams, harvesting oil from tar sands, fracking, off-shore drilling, mountaintop removal mining, etc.

Intuitively, EVs caused significant environmental damage; irrespective of whether they are marginally or even measurably better from a GHG perspective. I would much rather see investment in technologies that hold the potential to significantly alter the equation (eg. thermocatalytic decomposition and/or wind/solar electrolysis for manufacturing hydrogen as a fuel source) than the current rush to treat EVs as a panacea for all our environmental ills. It has not been studied enough and both industry and government are behaving irresponsibly).
Appreciate 0
      07-22-2018, 08:39 PM   #76
Soterios
BXR
575
Rep
636
Posts

Drives: 2012 135i
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Missouri

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
My point is broader ... in that we really don't know the stem to stern environmental impacts of EVs vs. ICE. When I consider environmental impacts, I am not just considering GHGs, but the vast habitat and other environmental damage caused by constructing hydro-electric dams, harvesting oil from tar sands, fracking, off-shore drilling, mountaintop removal mining, etc.

Intuitively, EVs caused significant environmental damage; irrespective of whether they are marginally or even measurably better from a GHG perspective. I would much rather see investment in technologies that hold the potential to significantly alter the equation (eg. thermocatalytic decomposition and/or wind/solar electrolysis for manufacturing hydrogen as a fuel source) than the current rush to treat EVs as a panacea for all our environmental ills. It has not been studied enough and both industry and government are behaving irresponsibly).
Well, if it eases your mind at all, the power industry is focused almost solely on wind and solar power here in America. So those other environmental worries are tiny tiny slices of the pie. You might read about those for consideration, but no one is mobilizing.

EV's don't have anything to do with the means of power production anyways. If we have a massive shift to EV tomorrow, we're just going to burn more coal, as that's where most of our power comes from. It's not like they're going to go out and damn up a bunch of rivers. The industry is slowly shifting the grid to solar and wind currently.
__________________
2012 135i M Sport Alpine White
Appreciate 0
      07-22-2018, 08:40 PM   #77
The Automotive Enthusiast
Retired BMW Genius
The Automotive Enthusiast's Avatar
United_States
2888
Rep
3,404
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi S5 Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: DMV

iTrader: (1)

It’s really ugly.
Appreciate 1
Taskmaster2463.00
      07-22-2018, 08:54 PM   #78
The Automotive Enthusiast
Retired BMW Genius
The Automotive Enthusiast's Avatar
United_States
2888
Rep
3,404
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi S5 Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: DMV

iTrader: (1)

You also can't lease them right now.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucBroDude View Post
TRAITOR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucBroDude View Post
TRAITOR.
Appreciate 0
      07-23-2018, 07:27 AM   #79
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Just as much appeal as a Bolt does for a person with a young family looking for a CUV who are prepared to make the switch to electric.
I've test driven a Bolt and came away impressed with the vehicle for what it is. If I were in the market for a small FWD hatchback, would I pay $40k for this particular vehicle with no better performance than any other small FWD hatchback I could obtain for less money? Not necessarily. But it is definitely a quality product. As the cost of EVs comes down closer to ICE vehicles, products like the Bolt are going to become compelling for those looking for basic affordable transportation.
Appreciate 0
      07-23-2018, 07:41 AM   #80
Youaretheone77
Banned
2
Rep
3
Posts

Drives: BMW320
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Spain

iTrader: (0)

So, what´s the real price for this car? 40k? 70 k?

But in € or in USD?

Thank you
Appreciate 0
      07-23-2018, 08:07 AM   #81
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2463
Rep
9,004
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Horrid quality, half baked looks, cost cuts galore. Objectively, it's a good 7/10ths car, but for $80k fully loaded I expected a lot better than an iPad strapped to a dash.

The lack of physical controls, and the cheap looking (read: plain) interior are especially appaling. How can this car cost this much and look so bad?
Appreciate 1
chris82825.00
      07-23-2018, 08:14 AM   #82
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youaretheone77 View Post
So, what´s the real price for this car? 40k? 70 k?

But in € or in USD?

Thank you
https://3.tesla.com/model3/design
Appreciate 1
      07-23-2018, 12:12 PM   #83
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Horrid quality, half baked looks, cost cuts galore. Objectively, it's a good 7/10ths car, but for $80k fully loaded I expected a lot better than an iPad strapped to a dash.

The lack of physical controls, and the cheap looking (read: plain) interior are especially appaling. How can this car cost this much and look so bad?
The lack of knobs and clean design really bugs some people.
Appreciate 0
      07-23-2018, 01:00 PM   #84
FC4
Brigadier General
2644
Rep
3,393
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: May 2014
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
...his definition of a car enthusiast is different than mine. That's about it.
LOL.
Appreciate 1
Taskmaster2463.00
      07-24-2018, 12:35 AM   #85
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2463
Rep
9,004
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The lack of knobs and clean design really bugs some people.
It’s not clean - it’s cheap. I hate to agree with someone who spoke about Audi - but they did it right.
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2018, 09:29 AM   #86
chris82
Brigadier General
chris82's Avatar
United_States
825
Rep
3,856
Posts

Drives: 128i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NY NY

iTrader: (8)

Garage List
2009 BMW 128i  [9.80]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
It’s not clean - it’s cheap. I hate to agree with someone who spoke about Audi - but they did it right.
I'd describe it as utilitarian. I've seen the interior in person and cheap doesn't come to mind for me, it's just a very different take on what a car should be.
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2018, 09:31 AM   #87
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
16946
Rep
18,578
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Just had a good look at a silver Model 3 on my way in today. I'm sorry, but the front end is just fugly, no other way to put it... FUGLY.

And the flame surfacing (thanks Mr. Bangle) is just not well executed either.

If it was my dog I'd shave its butt and teach it to drive backwards...
Appreciate 1
      07-24-2018, 09:45 AM   #88
Taskmaster
Banned
Japan
2463
Rep
9,004
Posts

Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris82 View Post
I'd describe it as utilitarian. I've seen the interior in person and cheap doesn't come to mind for me, it's just a very different take on what a car should be.
If any other car maker did it, we would be screaming how cheap it looked.



Utilitarian.



Looks cheap and incomplete.
Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:29 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST