BMW M1 / BMW 1M test mule spied in production testing form!!!

[BBK]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

Ok, so do the same to an M3 and what happens? yup.

You end up spending enough to buy an 911?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

Ok, so do the same to an M3 and what happens? yup.

Most likely the m3's performance will go down. law of gravity says what goes up must comes down, therefore the higher one is he will fall the hardest ;-)

Does that bother you?

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by LeoHammer

One of the most amazing track monsters of all time is a Turbo car... the Ferrari F40, which rolled out of the factory in 1987. So why do some of you think that the best engineers within BMW can't develop an amazing racy turbo engine in 2012? its the M division after all, once this M1/1M is released we will soon forget about all N/A vs turbo arguments and all true 1addicts that can't afford the M version will have envious wet dreams... That's what happened to me when after modifying the crap out of my Z4 back in 2005ish, BMW unveiled the Z4M.

My only issue with this comment, is that I have seen it before and it makes no sense. The F40 is a focused sports car, that relatively speaking sold for 4 times+ what any M1 would sell for (comparatively speaking if it was sold today). So yes, a turbo car can be great, but F40 is not your typical turbo'ed car. Also, check out every major track lap times, and the car with the fastest lap is generally speaking a car powered by a very high-revving N/A engine. Just to point out a few that everyone would know:

The Ring: SR8 Supersport/LM @ 6:48
VIR: Mosler MT 900S @ 2:45.9
Laguna Seca: Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR @ 1:33.92


My response is not meant to be a pro-turbo or anti-turbo response. All that it is meant to do is point out that comparing a turbo'ed engine on a 200k Ferrari to a engine on a 50k BMW doesn't make much sense. Whether better or worse, don't think for a second that BMW's move to FI on their //M cars has anything to do with what will yield the best track performance or experience. Its based purely on EPA standards, production costs and the general buying public's obsession with torque.

Either way, M1 (can't believe they are going to use that name) looks to be shaping up to be a great car.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Evan135]

I am going to stick my neck out and share a few opinions. This is an early M1. They have just not gotten to the hood, trunk, or changes needed to integrate quad exhaust yet. The pictures do seem to verify M3 suspension though. I made an earlier post saying it will rob the M3 parts bin and have long thought they would just use the entire front and rear suspension right out of the M3.

The widened M3 track fits when you can widen the fenders, as they have, and is low cost as the tooling cost have been covered by the M3. Of course springs and shocks would be tuned, maybe even sway bars too, but in the pictures the brakes look M3, the rear suspension looks M3, even the tires look to have the right widths. They would probably skip the adjustable shocks and such to control cost and separate it from the M3.

I also think the engine will be great. I am betting on a twin turbo using two twin scroll turbo chargers. I have thought a lot about this, and may be wrong, but a great way to do this would be to set it similar to the N54 but drive only one side of each twin scroll at low rpm to spool it faster, and then flow both scrolls at high rpm.

I tried many other scenarios and this one is the simplest, has great exhaust flow efficiency, and would give great low speed response and high rpm performance like you would want in an M engine. I think part of the weight savings could come from a magnesium block that would help with weight distribution too.

We will see about my engine guesses, as all the above is predicted from the hints Scott has given and many years of turbo experience, but I feel really confident about the suspension coming directly from the M3. We will see......

[BrokenVert]

one problem with your post. Im not sure that a magnesium block would be strong enough to handle a boosted motor. But im sure that the M guys know whats up when it comes to engines. Im just gonna leave it up to them to make something special.

[Migsboyfresh]

Originally Posted by LeoHammer

I don't think a stock 135i can beat an M3... and if you're reasoning was correct, BMW would have never made the M3 since it destroys the M5 at the track. I don't see why the 1M can't be as quick as the current M3... the current M3 has many things that buyers would rather have over the 1M, one of them being that high revving V8.
In addition, back when the Z4M was released, BMW discontinued the e46 M3 for about 2 years until the next gen e92 came out. So perhaps the 1M will fill the gap between the current and next gen M3, if this is the case than the 1M/M1 could very will be faster than the M3, further evidence of this is also the projected release of the next gen 1 series in 2014, which would mean that the M1 will only last for that 2 years gap, just as long as the Z4M.

135 vs m3 stock for stock, very close but the 135 beats it, i beat my friend's m3 and we traded cars for a day and he beat me with my 135. its not all about pricetag.. and after just $650 for a jb3 2.0 i beat the new m3 by 4.5+ car lengths pulling on m3s in every gear. what im trying to say is that if they made a 135m, it would blow the m3 out of the water because the stock 135 already is stupid fast. so in a marketing perspective it makes no logical sense. and ive spoken to a few people at bmw north america near where i live and they agreed.

[Migsboyfresh]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Stock for stock? No way--the M3 is actually much faster in a straight line than a stock 135....if you add mods the 135 can catch up, but not stock...

The 135 gives you a lot of bang for the buck so to speak--but it is not anywhere near on the level of an M3. I don't think the highly modified 135/335's out there are either....

Spend some significant time in an M3, or M coupe like I have this week. You will see that there is a different purpose to an ///M car....it is something that you can see, feel, hear, etc....

Additionally, Scott has stated that the power of the M1 will be kept in check so that the toes of the M3 will not be tread upon...so roughly 360 BHP....that will not destroy an M3--it sounds to me like it will make for an interesting conversation and driver's race--which is what BMW wants to create anyway...

And for the record, there are several items in the test mule spy shots that would make your theory of this being an F20 1 series test mule simply ridiculous....like the LSD....the cross drilled rotors....the widened air vents for the brakes....the widened fenders.....there is no chance in hell this is the next generation 1 series test mule....

Finally, Scott has verified that the car will indeed be called the M1. Looks like you lost your 135!

are you on crack? lol stock for stock the m3 doesnt pull on the 135 at all, and "if you add mods the 135 can catch up?" you obviously havent left the house lately. a simply plug n play jb3 which installed costs max of $700, does rediculous things to the car, and no m3 has even come close to beating me. and stop talking horsepower and start thinking of the most important aspect about a car WEIGHT. It makes a difference. my friends jb3 335 kept up with my other friends m3 but my jb3 135 blew them out of the water and they couldnt catch me.

[Migsboyfresh]

Originally Posted by bradford

Performance wise? A properly modded 135i will smoke a stock M3.

jb3, thats all it takes.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Robert

Most likely the m3's performance will go down. law of gravity says what goes up must comes down, therefore the higher one is he will fall the hardest ;-)

Does that bother you?

No worries...I was just pointing out the inherent comedy in the "properly modded 135" comment when comparing it to a stock car (albeit a favorite of mine for obvious reasons and more than a solid OEM performer).

The 135 is an amazing car and probably a better value than the m3. But if "properly modded" results in an all-around better track car, why don't pro teams use them more (ignoring some racing regulations prohibiting the 135 from certain competitive class participation such as the case with the turner 135 race-prepped car that is, incidentally, for sale in the back of this month's roundel magazine)?

I mean, lets be frank, if you could get more performance out of a modded m3 vs. a modded 135 (at the pro driver skill level), then we'd see 135 teams abound. Empirically, we don't notice that phenomenon for the same reason that we don't see an abundance of m5 teams....the m5's (or 135's) pure potential, even modded, doesn't exceed that of a comparably modified m3.

And as for the 911 price point comment - hard to argue with that. Doesn't mean I won't try - a heavily modded m3 could toast the base 911 just like a heavily modded 135 could toast the m3....hence my earlier reference to the 135 value (based on cost vs. performance).

....Just my opinion.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by bradford

Performance wise? A properly modded 135i will smoke a stock M3.

Right, and a properly modded Honda Civic will smoke (enter car of choice here).....

I have ridden in many "modded" cars with the N54--just doesn't feel, sound, or give the same satisfaction that an ///M car does....it is just my opinion, but one that I have heard from numerous other folks as well....

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Right, and a properly modded Honda Civic will smoke (enter car of choice here).....

I have ridden in many "modded" cars with the N54--just doesn't feel, sound, or give the same satisfaction that an ///M car does....it is just my opinion, but one that I have heard from numerous other folks as well....

+1.

This is such a tired debate. A normal stock 135i with a JB3 and pump gas doesn't SMOKE an M3 for goodness sake. It just makes it even more competitive. It takes a lot of work besides HP to make a car go fast. Gearing, traction, etc. I've seen these cars do crazy things with software tweaking but people on here are stretching. Just look at this 335i with 340rwhp and 390 at the wheels:

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...35i-coupe.html

What are you guys definition of smoke? Does a JB3 really enable a N54 equipped car to beat 4.1seconds to 60mph and 12.6 in the quartermile? That is a serious jump from 4.8 and 13.3 IMO.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by 135I1

are you on crack? lol stock for stock the m3 doesnt pull on the 135 at all, and "if you add mods the 135 can catch up?" you obviously havent left the house lately. a simply plug n play jb3 which installed costs max of $700, does rediculous things to the car, and no m3 has even come close to beating me. and stop talking horsepower and start thinking of the most important aspect about a car WEIGHT. It makes a difference. my friends jb3 335 kept up with my other friends m3 but my jb3 135 blew them out of the water and they couldnt catch me.

I have a JB3 you jackass--and no, I'm not on crack.

If you want something that is fast in a straight line, there are a lot of better choices out there than a pudgy 135 with mods...

Obviously, you don't understand the nature of the 135's weight. It is less than 200 pounds lighter than the E92, and has a higher drag coefficient. So it is a push....

And when you say that your 135 "smoked" the M3--was that from stoplight to stoplight? Because the N54 poops out once you get into higher speeds, with the boost falling off like an anvil above 5000 RPM or so....

[footie]

How often these threads go off topic which effects the whole mood and at times never return to the original subject matter.

Guys if you really want to start up a discussion on whether a 135i or whatever is quicker/better than an M3 then by all means go ahead, but please lets keep these 1M threads clear of such debates.

Thanks.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by 135I1

are you on crack? lol stock for stock the m3 doesnt pull on the 135 at all, and "if you add mods the 135 can catch up?" you obviously havent left the house lately. a simply plug n play jb3 which installed costs max of $700, does rediculous things to the car, and no m3 has even come close to beating me. and stop talking horsepower and start thinking of the most important aspect about a car WEIGHT. It makes a difference. my friends jb3 335 kept up with my other friends m3 but my jb3 135 blew them out of the water and they couldnt catch me.

Please keep it civil. Stock for stock a BMW E92 M3 pulls on a 135i. It is a fact. It appears that you and your friends are incompetent drivers. Weight is very important but its not drastic between a M3 and 135i. Gearing is important too. I dont know how much fuel the M had or your 135i. I'm not aware of the passengers. In a all out drag race a 135i WILL not beat an M3.

In fact a a M3 reaches 150mph in less than 25 seconds. It takes a stock 135i 25.6 sec to reach 140mph. That 25.6 was the fastest time I found. CarandD also has it at 27.9sec. The spread to get another 10mph to 150 will take at least 3-4seconds. These differences are too massive to ignore.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...the_way_page_2

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...48a911069c.pdf

[LeoHammer]

Originally Posted by 135I1

135 vs m3 stock for stock, very close but the 135 beats it, i beat my friend's m3 and we traded cars for a day and he beat me with my 135. its not all about pricetag.. and after just $650 for a jb3 2.0 i beat the new m3 by 4.5+ car lengths pulling on m3s in every gear. what im trying to say is that if they made a 135m, it would blow the m3 out of the water because the stock 135 already is stupid fast. so in a marketing perspective it makes no logical sense. and ive spoken to a few people at bmw north america near where i live and they agreed.

Thats just in a straight line...means nothing.. the 135i's setup is understeery and unsatisfying... a properly modded 135i could beat an m3, maybe not by far but it could... and I never said it would be as satisfying as an m3... theres no way the n54 can be nearly as fun as that AMAZING high revving V8... speed around a track isn't everything either. And although the 135M might be faster than the current M3... It might be a gap filler like the Z4M was between the e46 M3 and e92... in which case it would make marketing sense.

[oztiks]

I've driven both cars...M3 takes the cake by far.. much more rewarding to drive. End of story. Let's hope they can make an M1/1M that can reward us the same way, without having to put so many mods causing our warranty to go ba bye. I may just buy a X1 damn they look nice and than swap engines from an SRT Cherokkee ....ladder part was a joke<

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

one problem with your post. Im not sure that a magnesium block would be strong enough to handle a boosted motor. But im sure that the M guys know whats up when it comes to engines. Im just gonna leave it up to them to make something special.

I know with the current magnesium block you are right. I am hoping since the M division is going to turbos they might have developed something special. If this is also the basis for the next M3 engine they might have.

I remember how much expense and new tech M but into the current M5 V10 and M3 V8. Look at the current M X5/X6 too. It may be wishful thinking, but you can only remove so much weight with a carbon fiber roof, plastic fenders, and lightened hood and trunk.

If some of the weight reduction claims are true I thought an improved magnesium block might be a possibility. The current block has been out for years and upgrades are possible. We will see.......and I cannot wait. I have had modded cars and factory specials and for me I like to take the factory specials and mod those. They usually start as a better engineered package.

[Muffnbluff]

Originally Posted by Evan135

I also think the engine will be great. I am betting on a twin turbo using two twin scroll turbo chargers. I have thought a lot about this, and may be wrong, but a great way to do this would be to set it similar to the N54 but drive only one side of each twin scroll at low rpm to spool it faster, and then flow both scrolls at high rpm.

I tried many other scenarios and this one is the simplest, has great exhaust flow efficiency, and would give great low speed response and high rpm performance like you would want in an M engine. I think part of the weight savings could come from a magnesium block that would help with weight distribution too.

We will see about my engine guesses, as all the above is predicted from the hints Scott has given and many years of turbo experience, but I feel really confident about the suspension coming directly from the M3. We will see......

I'm not sure you understand what twin scroll means...

If there are two turbos on an I6 engine, they can't be twin scroll because the exhaust pulses are already alternating between the two turbos.

The only way to really change the engine would be to make it sequential turbo. If they put bigger turbos on there people will bitch about lag, but that'd be the only way to make more power to redline without dropping off. And I doubt they'll have variable vane turbos like Porsche.

Or maybe since it's an N55 they can put slightly larger turbos on and still get similar boost response and spool.

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Please keep it civil. Stock for stock a BMW E92 M3 pulls on a 135i. It is a fact. It appears that you and your friends are incompetent drivers. Weight is very important but its not drastic between a M3 and 135i. Gearing is important too. I dont know how much fuel the M had or your 135i. I'm not aware of the passengers. In a all out drag race a 135i WILL not beat an M3.

In fact a a M3 reaches 150mph in less than 25 seconds. It takes a stock 135i 25.6 sec to reach 140mph. That 25.6 was the fastest time I found. CarandD also has it at 27.9sec. The spread to get another 10mph to 150 will take at least 3-4seconds. These differences are too massive to ignore.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...the_way_page_2

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...48a911069c.pdf

I agree with your quote. I own a 135 and love the M3. The facts are that the 135 has a 3.08 rear gear with a stick and the M3 has a 3.85 and can pull to 8000+ rpm. Tire sizes are 5.7% different favoring the 135, but the M3's gearing is 25% stronger. They both use the same transmission ratios. So the M3 has a huge @ 20% gearing advantage. There is a reason why old guys like me call a numerically higher rear axle ratio "a poor mans supercharger". The M3 also has a LSD that let it put this power down too.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by Haywood

Not on a track it won't.

LOL. Yes, it absolutely will.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by 135I1

jb3, thats all it takes.

I don't live my life 1/4 mile at a time, and the 135i is not smoking anything but pole on a road course with the stock suspension.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by Evan135

The facts are that the 135 has a 3.08 rear gear with a stick and the M3 has a 3.85 and can pull to 8000+ rpm... the M3's gearing is 25% stronger. They both use the same transmission ratios.

Are you sure that's correct? I find it hard to believe that the M3 turns around 4000rpm at 80mph...