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02-27-2009, 07:16 AM | #1 |
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What is the fascination with 0-60?
I have been fascinated with 0-60 times since I picked up my first Road and Track or Sports Cars Illustrated nearly 50 years ago. Then it seemed that the fast cars were getting close to 10 seconds and you could really measure differences not quite with a sun dial; but, sports cars were in the low teens and big detroit machines were in the mid-teens.
Now economy cars break 10 seconds and the difference in time between exotics and performance daily drivers is less then So it seems that for all that is posted, published 0-60 is valuable for bench racing. A comparison using times different publications is not generally a level playing field. Our cars are too fast to participate in stop-light to stop-light street racing and often times the looser will keep going until he/she wins, well after you have let off and you are already going stupid fast speeds. Today you need something like old VW beetles and Bugeye Sprites. Then you could race and barely keep up with traffic and no one would know you were racing. From what I read in the 0-60 time thread you can alter the results by actually rolling before you go, which would not seem to be actually 0-60. A more meaningful 60mph time is the time from 70 to 130. I have not measured it in the 135 yet since I hardwired the Traqmate into the 911.
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08 135I (AW/Coral Red - delivered 3/15/08 -- 13 Audi S4, 83 SC (trackster), 90 C2 (Sally's Carrera), 04 Avalanche Blingmobile Last edited by white911; 02-27-2009 at 07:31 AM.. |
02-27-2009, 08:26 AM | #2 |
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That's a good point - the 0-60 time is kind of a holdover from the days when there really were some cars that couldn't get out of their own way, or had trouble getting up hills (Le Car? Yugo? Renault Dauphine?) Still, there may be something to be said about measuring the time it takes the car to get to highway speeds when merging.
Why do you think 70-130 is more important? |
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02-27-2009, 10:28 AM | #3 |
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There's something to be said for keeping metrics the same over the long haul. For example, you couldn't have made some of your long-term observations if 0-60 was no longer a standard.
Similar kind of thing happens in the stock market. A stock that once sold at $100 and dropped to $90 a year ago, may now be selling for $1 and drop to 90 cents. Both are 10% drops. |
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02-27-2009, 11:25 AM | #4 |
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0 - 60 is a good metric as long as all variables are eleminated. The 911 takes 10.8 seconds to go from 90 to 130 on the back straight at VIR and and it takes 9 seconds at Summit Point to gain the same 40mph. One straight is uphill and one straight is downhill and the weather was different. I just pulled two examples out of the data, both involved multiple shifts (3-4, 4-5), what if I had not wasted the time shifting to fifth. My goals are not the same as a magazine tester. The time certainly would have been faster; but, the goal was to achieve the fastest time between turn x and the next turn and to make my car last as long as possible.
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02-27-2009, 11:42 AM | #5 |
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Well...it is interesting, and I think like others have said, it is a simple benchmark to gauge
everyone by. I would agree that there are so many other tests that would truly test a car's performance. The Top Gear test track is an example, as well as Nurburgring Nordschleife times. The reality is, most people will never take their car to a track, so the fallback is 0-60. Everyone, everyday, accellerates from a stand-still multiple times...and it doesn't really take any skill to accomplish...but it is something everyone can do to display their car's acceleration. It is certainly unsafe to street race, and the thought of people doing 70-130 mph pulls is simply out of the question...
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02-27-2009, 12:29 PM | #6 |
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it is definitely a somewhat arbitrary measure, but as long as you keep that caveat in mind when using it in comparisons, you'll be fine. for example, if you have 2 cars that are identical in every possible way, except due to a tiny gearing ratio discrepancy, one redlines second gear at 61mph, and the other redlines 2nd gear at 59mph, the second car will have to make an additional shift before reaching 60, which would make these 2 cars have drastically different 0-60 times, when in fact they are almost exactly as "fast" in real terms. it all has to do with where you draw the "line", and 60mph is as good a "line" as any.
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02-27-2009, 12:49 PM | #7 |
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My point exactly - even the previously somewhat safe stoplight gran prix is not safe, at a minimum you are betting with your license. So where are you going to achieve these results and what are you using them for? My data is strictly for my own use; but, I can sort of compare it to published data and whether I purposefully record it or not, my data acquisition always records it. But even so, the data in the same car, in approximately the same weather conditions does not produce the same results. As an added downside to collecting 0-60 data and comparing it to magazine x is that few things can be harder on the drive train then standing starts and the grippier the surface the more wear.
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02-27-2009, 01:58 PM | #8 |
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on audiworld (specifically in the context of the B5 S4), a popular tuning metric was 60-90 3rd gear pulls. a good time was between 2.5 and 5 seconds (depending on car preparation). i thought this was a good "real world" metric that doesn't cause excessive wear, or risk to your license...
unfortunately, metrics like this are highly car-dependent... meaning that comparing a B5 S4 to a 135i is not really a good comparison, since their gearing ratios may be quite different. also, the times were acquired through VAG-COM, an OBD-II monitoring unit which would log engine data, like RPM across time. an appropriate level of accuracy isnt really possible without something like that (which i havent seen for BMW). |
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02-27-2009, 03:48 PM | #9 |
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True, gearing will have a big affect between platforms as well as data-rate and refresh. At Summit I can't even use the longer 80 to 130 pull, because the car is still turning at 80. I chose the higher speeds because the bigger/longer the pull, the easier to discriminate and you can readily see the problems with an antique gear-box.
From your example it would seem that an Audi S4 should pull my car down the back-straight at VIR; but I have not found one that will yet. I get another chance to look -- Audi Club event April 20, 21, registration is open. This kind of data is really helpful if you are making a change to your car and want to see whether it worked or not -- like a K&N filter. Also another opportunity -- Downhill back straight at Mid Ohio -- May 8-10 (three days) email me dechair@pcapotomac.org
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02-27-2009, 08:18 PM | #11 |
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the audi s4 is a god-awful platform for handling, unfortunately, so you'll probably exit that critical last turn at a significantly higher clip than any audi s4. my old s4 made a best time of 4.65 seconds from 60-90, but there are many with upgraded turbos which can do it in around 3 seconds. it's a highway beast, but that's about it, unfortunately.
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03-01-2009, 10:34 PM | #12 |
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IMO, 0-60 is a silly thing to measure nowadays. With today's powerful cars, most will easily spin the wheels off the line. This means that there are huge variables between tests: surface Cf, tire choice, tire pressure, all have a huge affect on how quickly a car will go from 0 to 60. You can eliminate these variables by doing a, say, 50-100mph test.
For example: A Nissan GTR goes 0-60 very very fast because it is AWD and has sticky tires from the factory. A Corvette Z06 suffers greatly from 0-60 because it is RWD and has rock hard runflats. Overall, which car accelerates faster? The Vette. But 0-60 tests make the Nissan appear faster. |
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03-05-2009, 02:59 PM | #13 | |
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60 to 90 benchmark?
Quote:
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03-05-2009, 03:14 PM | #14 |
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earlier this week I did some rudimentary highway pulls on the 135i (stock) and came up with an average of about 4.7 seconds from 60-90 in 3rd gear. granted, I was only using a stopwatch...
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03-05-2009, 03:54 PM | #15 |
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4.7 sounds right on the money -- the 4.5 was optimistic.
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