Opinions on tuned n52 with 3 stage

[MarkkyyMan]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

I'm not looking to make this into a comparison with Active(who I like for a number of reasons), but I'm pretty sure one of the primary reasons 623128i regrets his AA purchase was that he was told to go away when he sought support for his tune.

I had a Shark on my full bolt on S52 as well. I remember when the S54 came out Conforti, creator of the Shark, said there was 2-4hp left on the table from the factory. That was the nature of S54 for a long time until Evolve changed the game. From what I've seen since both in person and across forums is that that level of competency does not change based on platform for them, something that isn't usually seen for a tuner. Hence why it would be the outlier for them if there tune for the N52 was equivalent to the PBX(a statement I find amusing as my throttle wasn't changed in the slightest).

Bottom line, I guess I need to make getting a dyno a priority.

Did he share publicly that he was told to go away?

Isn't 355 horsepower pretty much the limit on a NA e46?

[631twentyeighteye]

Yeah i have the direct quote from them in my dyno thread(iroll's dyno thread). They eventually came around and helped me sort it out and it did end up being reversed o2 sensor's. They were double reversed, hence why i didn't think they were mixed up. Bank 1 was in bank 2 with the bank 1 plug and vice versa, it was quite confusing and i believe it led to the premature failure of my bank 2 primary o2 sensor which i have since replaced.

Since that has been resolved, the car has been a joy to drive. the power with AA is completely linear with no dips anywhere in the range. I'd still like to see a nice comparable Evolve dyno to compare to mine. Although my last dyno with my headers may be off because my o2 sensors were indeed reversed, I didn't notice a performance difference between when they were reversed and not reversed though.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

Did he share publicly that he was told to go away?

Isn't 355 horsepower pretty much the limit on a NA e46?

Are you referring to crank or wheel?

Because NA with airbox, cams, headers, exhaust bits, Evolve, and a few other bits 380hp or so. All bolt ons, no engine work.

I think there has been some pioneering recently to go beyond that as well. And it should be noted, that retains VANOS and daily driving.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

What type of dyno are they using?

I don't know. Dynojet I what I'm told, but I haven't seen it in person.

631twentyeighteye issues with his car post tune wasn't due too the tune. It was the header installation and getting two o2 sensors mixed up.

AA seems to have a lot of support.

Evolve seems to be very well supported, without evidence of gains just personal expirience.

Local German tuners I have talked to have shown me cars and dyno's with their tune, but they are still the most expensive option.

I'm still thinking about which way to go. German tune Is showing the best max hp gain, evolve, well he can't tell me an estimated hp figure, and AA is promising 130i power.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by Sinister_1

I'm still thinking about which way to go. German tune Is showing the best max hp gain, evolve, well he can't tell me an estimated hp figure, and AA is promising 130i power.

That german dyno you post shows 260 hp as the estimate at crank, basically the software extrapolated from guessing a loss of driverain. Also germans use PS and kW. PS is usually higher than US hp/bhp. Therefore the German option for HP is on par with Evolve, AA, Eurocharged etc.


For your decision, perhaps treating AA vs Evolve equally will be wise and comparing them to German option. Once you decide on German offering, you than can focus on the alternatives of Evolve, AA, Eurocharged, and even P-Ptorque.

The only questions you should have left is:
- cost & service - how will you deal the ability to reflash in an odd situation( not just headers), and if you care about that option
- What do you want to gain from a tune - refinement for disa & mid range gains or to chase max poweeer
- What Octane setting you choose

German tunes may have better torque as seen by DS motorsport's e90 325i US-spec ( no disa, just euro box). But that may not apply to other tuners, WS tunning customer reported a lower than claimed hp# on a independant dyno and the dips are felt(naturallly by looking at the dyno curves advertised by some and the one you have)

Off topic -Hmm, would be interesting to compare AA 93 octane tunes to my Evolve 91 ish octane tune, I need to find a local AA-128er.

Also a back story on n52 Tunes -
When I joined these forums. Eurocharged, OE, and AA were the names for n52. Gintani was dropped a year prior to some dyno fudging scandal. AA was at this point offering stage 1 and stage 2, now they only sell one version "Stage 2.1", since they updated it a 3rd time this past summer(Shows their dedication and their recent 128i exhaust plans). Eurocharged just happened to refocus its business and their Vendor status expired, despite great reviews and competitive price. I guess they felt tuning other boosted cars was their focus that year. They did respond to my emails and their service I would say is good. OE tunning was compared to AA stage 2 by user @Hooy to have small gains on his 328i, no disa just intake.

So at that stage I had to choose between AA or Eurocharged. Comparing dynos of 3 stage + tune, they looked very simmilar (there is one some where for Eurocharged). Naturally I lusted for German tunes with 275hp for 125i. So when Evolve came to these forums and Showed a complete package I was impressed (dynos of whp & estimated hp, and on a car that their family member owns). Previously Evolve was the name dropped for 130i tunes and never showed the extra dynos. Compared to AA, at that time, I think they them selves had just one dyno of an Auto with 3 stage+ tune(They now do have a dyno, on their blog of a burgundy e91 328i and black e92 328i).

So given the time, Winter 2012-2013, Evolve surprised me and I wanted to be a gunea-pig anyway because I was chasing Hp. No regrets, everyone is better off.

I discovered P-Torque in April or so, and the reason I keep mentioning it is because their dyno is promising claiming 235 whp. If that is STD & on optimistic dyno, trying converting it to SAE or adding penalty for dyno differences they have 5 whp gains over most whp SAE dyno #'s. Their TQ curve after 4k rpm is not far off from the max peaks. As for service, great reviews on the babybmw forums with costs comparable to Evolve for cable tune. So they should be added to the Tune Wars

[Solo_M_Tech]

^ I'm not gonna quote that lol. So in your opinion, evolve has been the most impressive to you? I'm not interested in being a Guinea pig, but I want the best tune I can get for my money. Service and support are very important and smooth power and reliability are more important than overall max power.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by Sinister_1

^ I'm not gonna quote that lol. So in your opinion, evolve has been the most impressive to you? I'm not interested in being a Guinea pig, but I want the best tune I can get for my money. Service and support are very important and smooth power and reliability are more important than overall max power.

Evolve had credibility to me at the time for a DISA tune, not just a explination in a thread that it would work.
At that time AA had plenty for non DISA, no official Disa dyno - even though I saw one on dyno locally producing 5hp on 4wd over no tune Disa. That is different now.

My experience was pleasant with Evolve's service. I recommend that.

If I did AA, i'd probably be okay too. My understandign of the difference is smooth dyno plots. I dont know if AA's HP/tq plot is as smooth as Evolve's, its hard to compare dynos.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Well I'm gonna be ordering my tune in a couple weeks. I want to thank everyone who commented and gave me advice. It's hard to make a decision like this when I have no personal expirience, just what I've read on this forum. Evolve isn't the cheapest but they are willing to give me a discount and Imran has been very helpful in explaining the process and what to expect. Without headers I know I'm going to be alittle short of 130i power, but the smoothness of the power compared to others is what I'm looking for. If I plan on going to headers in the future evolve seems to be the best option.

[andrey_gta]

Alright guys. I did some photooshop comparisons between the dyno curves ( mine vs the others). Scaling by RPM and the Disa dips.
Its not scientific, but it helps reveal a story on Germans. Also I used STD graph, because I felt that in case the oter dynos are optimistic.

My results, are as follows(Will update with pics soon):

Official Evolve vs Mine no intake:
3k PRM official is above my line, and at top end 6k rpm slightly less

AA user's 328i with intake vs My Evolve no intake:
AA has a gain at 3k rpm. On an dyno plot that has an intake. No difference in top end, if it is it is the same as Evolve Offiial

MS tunning 125i vs my Evolve

Up to 3k rpm, its hard to match but appears Equal to mine or official Evolve.

The middle dip when stretched out is basically flat, just lower than evolve by 2hp difference. The 1st dip is the same story, even seems smoother.

The curve after 4.5k is the same as evolve & maybe AA until 5.8k.

At 5.8, the German tune slopes up to be 10 whp higher in STD ( not SAE) at 6.2k rpm. At 6.5, when evolve & maybe AA dips south, the German pushes 3 hp up only to die at 6.8.
This is what you pay for, that last breath on 95+ octane fuel.

P-torque vs my Evolve :

Up to 3 rpm, P-torqe has some gain like official Evolve, but its hard to match graph well.
4 to 4.5 dip appears to be more positive than evolve, slope up vs flat.
4.5 to 5.5 P-torque is above German & evolve by 3-5 hp through this diagonal. It then matches german until 6.5, then it dies south instead of matching german for last breath !!!

I dont know if this is because of Octane, but wow! German MS tunning essentially is P-torque without the remote option.

I was not expecting to discover that last 6k to 6.8k story. Penalizing that curve to be at Evolve/ No tune level makes the middle story not match up even to No tune levels

[Kgolf31]

Can't wait for pics.

Can US people get P-Toque and German MS tunes?

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Can't wait for pics.

Can US people get P-Toque and German MS tunes?

Pics are UP. The goal was not to find what the HP # are. Just compare the curves

Just P torque, i asked a Question on the babyBMW forums of them.
MS tuning's Marcel has claimed on the 1e-forum.de to do the ECU ship & return a few times

[Solo_M_Tech]

I think that last 500 rpm boost is due to fuel octane. Here in Germany you can get US 95 octane fuel at some gas stations. I found my unmodified car pulls harder with it and that may explain it.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by Sinister_1

I think that last 500 rpm boost is due to fuel octane. Here in Germany you can get US 95 octane fuel at some gas stations. I found my unmodified car pulls harder with it and that may explain it.

Maybe, look at Offical Evolve vs mine.
But its hard to ignore since that boost seems to be about 10 whp for some, and imagine if I made the mistake of matching the slopes, when in reality a tune has a higher slope in the post 4k rpm range.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

Pics are UP. The goal was not to find what the HP # are. Just compare the curves

Just P torque, i asked a Question on the babyBMW forums of them.
MS tuning's Marcel has claimed on the 1e-forum.de to do the ECU ship & return a few times

I have MS Tuning(aka Marcel's) tune on my 135i. I posted a HP(PS) and Tq graph in my write up bellow. One of the main reasons why I went with a German tune is bc I know how I drive over here in Germany... WOT for many minutes on end. With a piggy you can't do that - and have a healthy long term engine. I have put about 60K kms on my car since Marcel flashed the DME - not a single engine problem! No engine check lights, no running problems. Marcel's tune just works! I would highly recommend anyone to give him a try. I think Marcel has tuned more 1er's than anyone else in Germany. And he has a very good reputation on the 1erforum.de



Got my car tuned in Germany…
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528152


http://www.1erforum.de/bmw-135i/got-...ml#post1068403


MS Tuning
280 PS = 276 HP
325Nm = 240 ft/lbs

[Solo_M_Tech]

^ I looked into MS tuning and he's is by far the most expensive, almost €300 more than Flo at individual car design, and €500 more than AA AND EVOLVE. That's a tune for a 135i that you have posted. Granted he does work but he's way out of my price range.

I talked to Flo on the phone a couple days ago and the way he tunes US spec 128i's with the swap is he unlocks the ecu to 130i specs, stock, and then loads the tuned 130i map. His tuned LCI 130i map has yielded 282 ps at the crank. So that's about 235 hp BHP. That's the best max hp figure I've run across yet. Also when talking to him he says the DISA bumps felt in the 130i are eliminated by the tune. I'm really torn as he has cut his price down to €550 just to match AA discounted price. Down side is I loose the ability to flash back to stock. Decisions decisions.

[andrey_gta]

Dack posted the same 125i dyno that I used to make my shape comparisons.

You have the best possible decision choices, hence why I compiled those graphs ( i wasnt able to fit/rotate the one you tuner contact has shown you- but it looks to match the ones that push up after 6k). Enjoy this struggle, your 128i will be very lucky with any decision you make.

In reality the need to reflash is only needed if a dealer reflashes by accident, after you said not to update software, and of course the headers question (the small probability you decide)
Luckily our cars dont need the dealer much, and you should make it known to the dealer to avoid software updates because you like the way the car behaves at its curreent software. Cite examples of 128i's feeling weak or w.e after a dealer flash, or OEM alarm instillation ( pre 2010 cars).

[Solo_M_Tech]

Well I will be ready to make my purchase at the end of the month.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

Alright guys. I did some photooshop comparisons between the dyno curves ( mine vs the others). Scaling by RPM and the Disa dips.
Its not scientific, but it helps reveal a story on Germans. Also I used STD graph, because I felt that in case the oter dynos are optimistic.

My results, are as follows(Will update with pics soon):

Fantastic post! I wish this was how ALL discussions would work!

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Fantastic post! I wish this was how ALL discussions would work!

It's not an ideal comparison by any means. Nothing will replace using the same dyno for the same car or engine type.

I was glad that I discovered the possibility of an expected difference for these exotic tunes OR octane difference

[Solo_M_Tech]

After studying the graphs you posted, I can't seem to find a decernable difference between Evolve and AA. From what everyone has posted it comes down to headers. The price difference is minimal. Thanks to everyone who commented and compiled data. This not only serves to inform me, but anyone who is looking to do this mod and doesn't know what their options for tunes are.

[631twentyeighteye]

n52 information has exponentially been improving just in the passed year. Not only have new tunes and hardware been used but Andrey has compiled the data and made it very accessible and easy to understand for anyone in the future. He's saved us a lot of time and energy and i'm sure it'll save anybody looking to tune an n52 in the future. Many thanks to Andrey and everyone else who's contributed!

[Solo_M_Tech]

Well I've already talked to the shop with the dyno and tentively scedualed a date. I will be ordering the tune and doing the swap by the end of the month. Still haven't decided which tune. Evolve is the current leader, we'll see. AA has had the best email correspondence and customer support. Time will tell.