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      05-22-2019, 08:13 AM   #45
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It's time for everybody to take this as confirmation for their own bias.
"That's because of the huge grills"
"That's because they're moving away from Manual"
"That's because they use hard plastic under the door"
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      05-22-2019, 08:46 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drj161 View Post
It's for those new buck teeth grills that BMW is making.
That about sums it up.
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      05-22-2019, 08:59 AM   #47
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BMW is in trouble. Most of us long term customers can see that.

Most of their lineup sucks.
The new body language (Grille) is terrible.
Ultimate Driving Machine is gone.

Becoming the German Toyota is a bad long term business model
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      05-22-2019, 09:29 AM   #48
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The brand used to be a no brainer to buy my cars for 20 years. The benefits of their maintenance structure plus the clear Segments....car, SUV and M. I even liked their early foray into i so much that i got an i8 as the perfect counter to my M3. With that sweet V8. SUV for the family. There was good brand management and the competitive edge was around their engineering, engines and Motorsport heritage.

Now that's all more or less gone, I cannot think of one game changer in their lineup....all me too products and volume. That has a negative impact on the value of their products too now....the depreciation is as high as other mass products, which in turn makes me unwilling to buy their product at this stage....
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      05-22-2019, 10:06 AM   #49
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We need someone charismatic.. like Dr. Dieter Zetsche from Mercedes.
Norbert Reithofer used to be that guy in BMW.
The fact of the matter is people no longer think BMW as a sporty car company (or the ultimate driving machine).
It is kind of sad.
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      05-22-2019, 10:15 AM   #50
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Here's a dose of reality.

This guy is investing heavily into electric and software. This means all BMWs money is going is being spent without a return on investment until 2024 or so.

To soften the blow this man has:

1. Put ZF8 into every car instead of R&D new manuals/SMGs/DCTs. Bulk purchases = cheaper overhead.

2. Began selling the M badge without M credentials. ie: not Motorsport heritage. The M8 just was cancelled for WEC today after 1 year. BMW runs IMSA Formula e and DTM. Sad state of affairs but it saves money. No F1, No prototype, no GTE, barely GT3 presence, DTM is tiny regional, formula e is a joke. INDYCAR was begging them for a V6TT and that's not happening. All because BMW won't report a profit during this electric R&D phase. You can't have proper M without a proper Motorsport program.

3. Cheap plastic interiors since F gen launched. We've all seen it. These are the euro ford style economy interiors in 'luxury' cars. Saving money.

Germany, unlike the US has a severe cult like addiction to 'green' lifestyles. I mean it's like hardcore religious zeal. Like if you use more than one trash bag a year you are satanic murderer. That's fine, but I feel this guy must be sipping the cool aid. I feel he WANTS BMW to be a GREEN company and is spending billions to make it happen and it comes at the expense of the M division which he probably sees as toxic poison for the earth.

Electric cars have sold 50% of their projections and that's probably not going to change. My guess is BMW won't see a profit off of the i division for a long long time.

Sack this guy and put someone in charge who can make electrics while keeping BMW BMW and doesn't want to transform the brand into eco-toyota.
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      05-22-2019, 11:22 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonOne View Post
We need someone charismatic.. like Dr. Dieter Zetsche from Mercedes.
Norbert Reithofer used to be that guy in BMW.
The fact of the matter is people no longer think BMW as a sporty car company (or the ultimate driving machine).
It is kind of sad.
This current CEO lacks charisma. The guy comes across as being uncomfortable in front of crowds and dry as a 2 day old toast.
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      05-22-2019, 11:59 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
I feel he WANTS BMW to be a GREEN company
It’s not him, it’s the EU. Europe just released crazy emissions laws for new cars. It is just not possible to match the law without electric cars!

Last edited by LOW4LYF; 05-22-2019 at 01:00 PM..
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      05-22-2019, 12:17 PM   #53
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Weakened but not gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
BMW is in trouble. Most of us long term customers can see that.

Most of their lineup sucks.
The new body language (Grille) is terrible.
Ultimate Driving Machine is gone.

Becoming the German Toyota is a bad long term business model
They new inspiration and vision at the top and the shear will to build sheer driving pleasure back into the line up. They are not as bad as you make them and still very much on top in many areas but they need some pop or fizz back in the business and desperately get rid of this damn vanilla play it safe culture that is suffocating the brand.
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      05-22-2019, 12:22 PM   #54
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BMW going one way and that's the wrong way.

Poor design, far too many models and variations. No longer the Ultimate Driving Machine. Reliability is mixed, resale values are poor

I've been buying BMW for 30 years but no longer find the brand attractive. Far better design and value elsewhere
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      05-22-2019, 12:59 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc3 View Post
Far better design and value elsewhere
Where?
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      05-22-2019, 01:18 PM   #56
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WaPo Article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.501f64f9e5fa
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      05-22-2019, 01:36 PM   #57
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BMW used to have a differentiated product. Today they do not.

I've purchased 18 BMWs, some new, some used, in the last ~20 years. I don't seem myself buying another, unless it's a 10-50 year old one. Everything I got into the brand for (small car with reasonable practicality, good steering feel, high revving high specific output NA engines, nice manual transmissions, reasonable weight, fun to drive) is gone. If I can't get the characteristics I desire, I'll get a cheaper and/or more reliable car. The badge has always been my least favorite thing about the ownership experience, so I'm certainly not sticking around for that.
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      05-22-2019, 01:56 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonOne View Post
Excellent article and sums the situation up perfectly for me.
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      05-22-2019, 02:52 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Here's a dose of reality.

This guy is investing heavily into electric and software. This means all BMWs money is going is being spent without a return on investment until 2024 or so.

To soften the blow this man has:

1. Put ZF8 into every car instead of R&D new manuals/SMGs/DCTs. Bulk purchases = cheaper overhead.

2. Began selling the M badge without M credentials. ie: not Motorsport heritage. The M8 just was cancelled for WEC today after 1 year. BMW runs IMSA Formula e and DTM. Sad state of affairs but it saves money. No F1, No prototype, no GTE, barely GT3 presence, DTM is tiny regional, formula e is a joke. INDYCAR was begging them for a V6TT and that's not happening. All because BMW won't report a profit during this electric R&D phase. You can't have proper M without a proper Motorsport program.

3. Cheap plastic interiors since F gen launched. We've all seen it. These are the euro ford style economy interiors in 'luxury' cars. Saving money.

Germany, unlike the US has a severe cult like addiction to 'green' lifestyles. I mean it's like hardcore religious zeal. Like if you use more than one trash bag a year you are satanic murderer. That's fine, but I feel this guy must be sipping the cool aid. I feel he WANTS BMW to be a GREEN company and is spending billions to make it happen and it comes at the expense of the M division which he probably sees as toxic poison for the earth.

Electric cars have sold 50% of their projections and that's probably not going to change. My guess is BMW won't see a profit off of the i division for a long long time.

Sack this guy and put someone in charge who can make electrics while keeping BMW BMW and doesn't want to transform the brand into eco-toyota.
Well, there is a lot of wrong here:

1- Itís universally agreed that ZF8 is the best transmission in market. And Nobody whoís looking to buy M5 backs away from it because of ZF8, actually ZF8 is a positive.

2- M cars are expensive and a small percentage of the sales. But M Performance line is more approachable, and it has just started last year. Iím pretty sure M performance line would improve sales of 550i and 340i for instance, so even if youíre personally annoyed with it, there is no way it would make a negative effect for overall profitability or sales.

3- Cheap plastic interiors since F series launched? Really? The reality is the exact opposite of youíre saying. E60 interior sucked. E90 interior sucked. E70 interior sucked. F got a little better, (Except for F30 IMO), and currently all BMW models are way better than pre-F series era in terms of plastic quality

4- If you read the article you would know that board is frustrated because BMW appears to be behind in EV tech and autonomy. So what youíre saying is the opposite of theyíre saying.
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      05-22-2019, 02:55 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc3 View Post
BMW going one way and that's the wrong way.

Poor design, far too many models and variations. No longer the Ultimate Driving Machine. Reliability is mixed, resale values are poor

I've been buying BMW for 30 years but no longer find the brand attractive. Far better design and value elsewhere
This is all false.

Actually, BMW has less models and variations than competition. So if there is a problem about models and variations, BMW needs to come up with more. Poor design is a personal thing, but I think the poor design era was E90 era, now it’s better but BMW design needs to be more distinctive. Hopefully G30 will get 7 series grills at some point, and 4 series will get a distinct design as well, and that will make BMW design more distinct and special.
Reliability has been getting better and better over the years. For instance, F30 was more reliable than E90, and E90 was more reliable than E46.
And where is better design and value?
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Last edited by Cortexiphan; 05-22-2019 at 03:05 PM..
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      05-22-2019, 02:59 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
BMW is in trouble. Most of us long term customers can see that.

Most of their lineup sucks.
The new body language (Grille) is terrible.
Ultimate Driving Machine is gone.

Becoming the German Toyota is a bad long term business model
What sucks?
G20? G30? X3? X5?
The grill could terrible in your opinion, and that can’t have anything to do with profitability, as big grilled cars came in like a couple of months ago. And actually, if you read the article, stale design is seen as a problem, and the new (beautiful) large grill design is a solution.
Ultimate driving machine is not gone. In almost all categories the best performance, most fun, most driver oriented cars are from BMW.
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Last edited by Cortexiphan; 05-22-2019 at 03:06 PM..
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      05-22-2019, 03:12 PM   #62
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Terrible grill makes your car not futuristic at all.
I say that's the wrong first step before entering EV market
Do your homework right and make better cars!

I Own both amg and m cars
Despite I love the M but I might switch anytime, and I'm saying this from the heart of a true bmw fan

1. Your new cars are ugly
2. Your cost cutting strategy making car less reliable, expensive to fix
3. Your customer service and warranty program is a joke, none of your technicians knows how to fix cars, and a lot, I mean a lot of faulty were not covered by warranty In the warranty period. Why the hack am I spending 50 percent of premium buying new cars? Piece of mind man.

I can and will be happy to jump ship anytime
Because Porsche and AMGs are in their golden era.
Put yourself together BMW, that's all I can say
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      05-22-2019, 03:25 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Well, there is a lot of wrong here:

1- It’s universally agreed that ZF8 is the best transmission in market. And Nobody who’s looking to buy M5 backs away from it because of ZF8, actually ZF8 is a positive.

2- M cars are expensive and a small percentage of the sales. But M Performance line is more approachable, and it has just started last year. I’m pretty sure M performance line would improve sales of 550i and 340i for instance, so even if you’re personally annoyed with it, there is no way it would make a negative effect for overall profitability or sales.

3- Cheap plastic interiors since F series launched? Really? The reality is the exact opposite of you’re saying. E60 interior sucked. E90 interior sucked. E70 interior sucked. F got a little better, (Except for F30 IMO), and currently all BMW models are way better than pre-F series era in terms of plastic quality

4- If you read the article you would know that board is frustrated because BMW appears to be behind in EV tech and autonomy. So what you’re saying is the opposite of they’re saying.
I don't really care what the board wants, I'm just telling you the cars have never been cheaper to produce for BMW or had as big a price tag. This is to soften the blow of big R&D expenses.

You want a cheap BMW for full price buy it, that's fine. I personally expect a better value proposition. BMW wants to see how cheap they can go before you walk away.



R&D is bug, Which is big for the board every investor knows big R&D means big growth down the road, in theory. That's why Tesla has no profits for years but stock goes up. BMW doesn't have much to show for the expense. And it says more importantly 'BMW lost #1 selling luxury brand' recently.

The big picture here is that BMW sacrificed quality, lost sales, and has no electric profit to show. It's not hard to follow. Especially if you've driven an F30.

ZF8 is meh and hardly different than ZF6 and everyone on this board hates it in comparison to manual and DCT. Glad you like it, i don't. It's the only choice and it's not like a CVT or old Porsche slush so it gets good reviews. It's great for Stacey's leased 328i, it no business being associated with 'motorsport' and sadly it seems BMW has almost no association with it either except 3 series, one a regional Small German series and the other all electric with no fans and free tickets.

I still like the cars, don't get me wrong, but i like them less, and the trend is not good but I predict it corrects when the electrics come out and start making profit
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      05-22-2019, 05:17 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post

3- Cheap plastic interiors since F series launched? Really? The reality is the exact opposite of youíre saying. E60 interior sucked. E90 interior sucked. E70 interior sucked. F got a little better, (Except for F30 IMO), and currently all BMW models are way better than pre-F series era in terms of plastic quality
I mostly agree with you besides this. Almost every F chassis product either kept interior quality the same or was a downgrade from the E chassis car it replaced.Youve got to be kidding if you think the E90ís interior was bad yet think the F30ís is nice because factually it was not. There was more hard plastic in the cabin notably the center console.

Anyhow with the new G chassis vehicles I feel BMW has rectified their interior troubles. Both design and quality are on point.
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      05-22-2019, 10:33 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111 View Post
They have to hire an ex Porsche guy...lets just put aside the whole 10 yr IMS bearing issue but lately Porsche are good at listening to their clientele...ppl said...give us a manual GT3 and they did and the take rate is 85%...let's get a Porsche guy in so we can finally get an i8 with a proper engine to compete with Ferrari and Lambo and M cars offered light weight (relatively speaking) with manual gear boxes and no more rod bearing/crank bearing b/s
Porsche almost listen to their clients. The gt3 came back in manual, but not available for sale initially and then they limited production to a tiny amount compared to auto. They had the 911r which everyone loved but they only made a small amount. Then they did the gt3 touring but again limited numbers. The cayman was never really given a proper engine either (the gt4 only had the carrera s engine and the gearing was all wrong).

I have a Porsche and I'm routinely upset that they don't listen to customers. They make amazing cars and then not let us actually buy them. Test this out: call any Porsche dealer and ask to order a gt3 and see what they say.... they'll just tell you that you aren't allowed unless you are chosen to be allowed to buy one.
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      05-23-2019, 12:44 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I mostly agree with you besides this. Almost every F chassis product either kept interior quality the same or was a downgrade from the E chassis car it replaced.Youve got to be kidding if you think the E90ís interior was bad yet think the F30ís is nice because factually it was not. There was more hard plastic in the cabin notably the center console.

Anyhow with the new G chassis vehicles I feel BMW has rectified their interior troubles. Both design and quality are on point.
Agreed 100%...LOL at E90 interior inferior to F30...I owned both
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