My 1M oversteering too much? No traction anywhere

[mlcgd21]

Hi guys, I feel like my car is oversteering too much, even when off throtle, when I turn hard into a corner the car never, ever understeers, it wants to rotate over itself really fast and sometimes when I'm not expecting, even when I'm not acelerating and just turning into a corner fast. Of course when I'm on the power it's worse, I have no traction at all mid and end corner, sometimes I just want to get in the gas early to exit a corner fast and I just can't.

I've driven some cars with more power and also front engine and rear wheel drive, and I never felt nothing like this. Does anyone feel the same way? Feeling scared while I just want to drive relaxed, and getting caught by surprise isn't good I got to admit.

Also when it rains, even in a straight line, even in 6th gear, when I accelerate sometimes it catches me by surprise and the rear rotates fast before the TC kicks in, I always have to be very concentrated. I have the stock PS2 tires and my car has 14000 klms, they look good but honestly I'm in a hurry to change them, do the PSS make a big difference?

As I said the car as no traction at all and sometimes it can be a bit scary when I don't want to play with it.

Thanks for you feedback.

[ozinaldo]

PSS will make a big difference everywhere especially when wet and will ease your concerns.

My bet is your problem is all down to the difference in tread left between front and rear tires. Maybe also made worse by a need for re-alignment.

Don't worry, just go change your tires with PSS and at the same time check your alignment at a good shop before starting to ride with your new set.

[631twentyeighteye]

That sounds more like an alignment issue than a tire issue imho. New tires certainly won't help, but get an alignment done at the same time.

[Kgolf31]

...Of course people think PSS tires are the problem solver.

You need more toe in the rear tires. If you're completely off the throttle and getting the rear to wipe out you're clearly having toe problems. Now if you're lifting off throttle this is a completely different story.

I run -1/8th on each wheel (-1/4th total toe) in the rear and find this is a perfect set-up on my Z4M.


If you really want the car to understeer before oversteer, add more toe and reduce camber in the front as well to overload the front tires.

[alphagamma]

Are the tread above the wear bars?

I suspect you have an alignment issue.

[mlcgd21]

Yes the tread is way abose the wear bars, I like oversteer but in the street where I want to feel safe I don't like the car oversteering for no reason, a bit of understeer is good I guess, I will take it to BMW for new re-alignment then thank you.

[Redadair]

I have never experienced what you are describing here. No way the car breaks loose the rear in sixth gear. Take car to dealer and have it checked out.

[mlcgd21]

Originally Posted by Redadair

I have never experienced what you are describing here. No way the car breaks loose the rear in sixth gear. Take car to dealer and have it checked out.

It only happens when it's wet of course, but when it rains I really feel like the car is dangerous honestly, I know how to handle oversteer/drifts pretty well but sometimes I get caught by surprise.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by mariodiniz21

It only happens when it's wet of course, but when it rains I really feel like the car is dangerous honestly, I know how to handle oversteer/drifts pretty well but sometimes I get caught by surprise.

This may sound stupid...so please forgive the ignorance in this question:

Have you driven a front engine, RWD car with boost or NA?

Because both behave completely different.

[mlcgd21]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

This may sound stupid...so please forgive the ignorance in this question:

Have you driven a front engine, RWD car with boost or NA?

Because both behave completely different.

Both, I have some experience honestly but the 1M is kind of a different animal, I love it but it's a bit unpredictable sometimes. Have you ever driven one? I also have a 335d with a tune and it's so docile, I can go full power mid corner and it's very progessive and safe, never surprises me, only oversteers when I want to.

Don't know if anyone feels this about the 1M too.

[scotth944]

I have found my 2 year old PS2 tires are getting a lot easier to come loose now as the rubber has aged and as the outside temps are dropping. I would not expect a lot from a performance tire at this point in their life until you can get some decent tire temps in them and even at that point, it will still be diminished compared to a new set.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by mariodiniz21

Both, I have some experience honestly but the 1M is kind of a different animal, I love it but it's a bit unpredictable sometimes. Have you ever driven one? I also have a 335d with a tune and it's so docile, I can go full power mid corner and it's very progessive and safe, never surprises me, only oversteers when I want to.

Don't know if anyone feels this about the 1M too.

Yes, I've driven one fairly extensively.

The torque delivery is faster, and the surge of power is quite unpredictable relative to my S54.

However, mid corner in the 1M or my Z4M coupe, going onto throttle while in 1st, or 2nd will yield a back end coming around to say hello to you.

I think the main difference with your 335d compared to the 1M is the LSD factor. The 1M can actually put the power down mid-corner, and thus lose the traction once you exceed the limit. However with the open diff you'll lose traction in 1 wheel and the rear end will never be able to come around because you're giving up the traction too early to get yourself in trouble.


I've noticed this when I DD my 128 versus the Z4M. There is a turn where there is a slight hump in the road where if you take enough speed, you can get the rear wheels to freak out a-bit.

In the Z4M, if you stay on the power the car will just shimmy and come around on the intended path of rotation. However on the 128i the rear end gets very upset, the car wants to straighten out and by just turning the car the rear end stays planted and doesn't move what-so ever.



It is fairly common why people in autocross and track want LSDs. You can use the throttle to control the rear.

Just a quick example. This is me driving at a local autocross....Going into the slalom you can see me give a quick jerk of the wheel and get on the gas fairly early to get the rear end to come around. As well at the beginning of the course going over the hump, the rear end doesn't get upset and rotates pretty well

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

....
The torque delivery is faster, and the surge of power is quite unpredictable relative to my S54.
........

All you say makes perfect sense and good input derived from first hand experience as usual but you got to remember that he may not be (like most of us) as good a driver as you and some others are and there is not only faster delivery of torque as you say in your post but also MUCH more torque too; at certain rpms there literally can be double the torque vs the S54. Mine dynoed (like most others) around 550-560 nm (almost 400 lb.ft) at around 2500 rpm and keeping it till almost 5000 too, plus there is the occasional overboost deciding itself whenever to show up, this rev band is where we use the car most of the time especially during daily driving where a driver is subject to much more distractions compared to HPDE or a hot lap on a well known track; that is how the 1M can bite its driver unexpectedly on your way to home or work. I know that there is immense difference between a 1M with stock PS2s and fresh PSS in terms of controlling the rear, I changed my tires at exactly 550 kms after simply confirming what I was afraid of; those were not appropriate for the 1M, they were appropriate for the M3 where like S54 torque delivery is progressive and never too much.

However, his issue seems to be more serious and related to a bad alignement or another suspension/chassis problem rather than tires, I do agree. Still, if he is with his stock set of PS2s even with average to low mileage but after 2+ years I can guarantee you that those tires at the rear won't be enough to "give confidence" to a regular driver (a pro could even prefer them for more fun!) especially when wet, I am thinking here less performant tires combined with a messed up alignment, but in fact even with a good set up.

It seems logical if he takes the car to a good tire/wheel/alignment shop first and sees if the problem is totally cured afterwards or not. Maybe his car has another issue too.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by mariodiniz21

Hi guys, I feel like my car is oversteering too much, even when off throtle, when I turn hard into a corner the car never, ever understeers, it wants to rotate over itself really fast and sometimes when I'm not expecting, even when I'm not acelerating and just turning into a corner fast. Of course when I'm on the power it's worse, I have no traction at all mid and end corner, sometimes I just want to get in the gas early to exit a corner fast and I just can't.

I've driven some cars with more power and also front engine and rear wheel drive, and I never felt nothing like this. Does anyone feel the same way? Feeling scared while I just want to drive relaxed, and getting caught by surprise isn't good I got to admit.

Also when it rains, even in a straight line, even in 6th gear, when I accelerate sometimes it catches me by surprise and the rear rotates fast before the TC kicks in, I always have to be very concentrated. I have the stock PS2 tires and my car has 14000 klms, they look good but honestly I'm in a hurry to change them, do the PSS make a big difference?

As I said the car as no traction at all and sometimes it can be a bit scary when I don't want to play with it.

Thanks for you feedback.

Your car has a problem, as others have said. Either tires (how old, how worn, what pressure) alignment, or some mechanical issue. Start with the tires and work your way through the list.

[sparoz]

Consider the following

1. Check rear toe and tyres
2. Learn how to modulate your right foot
3. Slow in - fast out - coming off throttle when you are already going too fast put weight to the front and your tail when come out. It is same as going in too fast without braking and you suddenly brakes.

Stock 1M understeer naturally but adds throttle and it will turn. Many of us has tuned cars here which breaks traction all the time doesn't seem to have a problem. Otherwise, take a higher gear.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by scotth944

I have found my 2 year old PS2 tires are getting a lot easier to come loose now as the rubber has aged and as the outside temps are dropping. I would not expect a lot from a performance tire at this point in their life until you can get some decent tire temps in them and even at that point, it will still be diminished compared to a new set.

^^+2.

OP you need new tires. Even if your tires have more than 4mm's of thread... (new Mich's have 8.9mm's thread) as the tire ages the rubber gets harder and harder. Go buy some Michelin PSS's and put 600Kms on them and report back. I would also have your alignment checked - its easy for the toe to get out of whack on pot holed roads.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

those were not appropriate for the 1M, they were appropriate for the M3 where like S54 torque delivery is progressive and never too much.

You make the S54 sound wimpy

But I agree, That's why I mentioned alignment first, but just trying to rule out other factors.

I remember driving the 1M, I would try to short shift into 2nd (like I do on my car to catch the peak torque) and it resulted in roasting the rear tires. Definitely a different car to drive for sure

[mlcgd21]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Yes, I've driven one fairly extensively.

The torque delivery is faster, and the surge of power is quite unpredictable relative to my S54.

However, mid corner in the 1M or my Z4M coupe, going onto throttle while in 1st, or 2nd will yield a back end coming around to say hello to you.

I think the main difference with your 335d compared to the 1M is the LSD factor. The 1M can actually put the power down mid-corner, and thus lose the traction once you exceed the limit. However with the open diff you'll lose traction in 1 wheel and the rear end will never be able to come around because you're giving up the traction too early to get yourself in trouble.


I've noticed this when I DD my 128 versus the Z4M. There is a turn where there is a slight hump in the road where if you take enough speed, you can get the rear wheels to freak out a-bit.

In the Z4M, if you stay on the power the car will just shimmy and come around on the intended path of rotation. However on the 128i the rear end gets very upset, the car wants to straighten out and by just turning the car the rear end stays planted and doesn't move what-so ever.



It is fairly common why people in autocross and track want LSDs. You can use the throttle to control the rear.

Just a quick example. This is me driving at a local autocross....Going into the slalom you can see me give a quick jerk of the wheel and get on the gas fairly early to get the rear end to come around. As well at the beginning of the course going over the hump, the rear end doesn't get upset and rotates pretty well

The thing is that my 335d also has an LSD too and can put the power way earlier and better than my 1M, the LSD on the 1M is super agressive, it builds massive oversteer from very small throttle inputs, it just can't put the power down and that's something I wanted to improve in the car, maybe the rubber isn't in the best condition.

It shocks me that a Ferrari F12 with 740hp and same front engine/rwd layout and similar weight can put the power down in second gear and my little 1M with 340hp can't honestly.

Off-topic : Love your Z4MC, before the 1M I was pretty close to buy one.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by mariodiniz21

The thing is that my 335d also has an LSD too and can put the power way earlier and better than my 1M, the LSD on the 1M is super agressive, it builds massive oversteer from very small throttle inputs, it just can't put the power down and that's something I wanted to improve in the car, maybe the rubber isn't in the best condition.

It shocks me that a Ferrari F12 with 740hp and same front engine/rwd layout and similar weight can put the power down in second gear and my little 1M with 340hp can't honestly.

Off-topic : Love your Z4MC, before the 1M I was pretty close to buy one.

heed the advice of everyone here and get a good alignment. you'll be amazed at how many issues can be resolved with a simple alignment.

[mlcgd21]

Thanks for feedback, I will change the tires, I will use them in a trackday soon and then I'll change it for PSS and check the alignment too.

I see a lot of strange accidents with 1Ms so my car can't be the only one that is this unpredictable, more people must feel this too.

I remember reading here that a member from Brazil said that in a total of 15 or something 1Ms in his country, 8 (or more) were already destroyed and that in the majority of the cases the drivers died, that are some scary and crazy % right there.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by mariodiniz21

Thanks for feedback, I will change the tires, I will use them in a trackday soon and then I'll change it for PSS and check the alignment too.

I see a lot of strange accidents with 1Ms so my car can't be the only one that is this unpredictable, more people must feel this too.

I remember reading here that a member from Brazil said that in a total of 15 or something 1Ms in his country, 8 (or more) were already destroyed and that in the majority of the cases the drivers died, that are some scary and crazy % right there.

Having gone through five sets of street tires on my 1M, I can tell you the car and its balance are extremely sensitive to both tires and tire condition. PS2s are not remotely the same tire when half the tread is gone vs when they are new, and PSS are nearly as bad.

For a dramatic example of this I had PSS all around, swapped the rear for fresh PSS and kept the front the same as they were well under 1/2 worn. With just that simple change my car when from a loose (oversteer) balance to significant understeer, to the point that I was unable to fully rotate the car with any amount of throttle at the autocross because the front would simply push wide (TC/ DSC off, as always).

If the handling is as you say I'd swap all four tires before your track day, you'll have much more fun. Yes the car can easily bite the over-exuberant or inexperienced, but in my experience it's easy to play with the tail very far out with few concerns, even in the wet, on the right rubber. On the wrong rubber you're right, it's a handful, and the abrupt breakaway of worn PS2s is easily the worst I've experienced on the car. On the right tires it's bliss...

[mlcgd21]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Having gone through five sets of street tires on my 1M, I can tell you the car and its balance are extremely sensitive to both tires and tire condition. PS2s are not remotely the same tire when half the tread is gone vs when they are new, and PSS are nearly as bad.

For a dramatic example of this I had PSS all around, swapped the rear for fresh PSS and kept the front the same as they were well under 1/2 worn. With just that simple change my car when from a loose (oversteer) balance to significant understeer, to the point that I was unable to fully rotate the car with any amount of throttle at the autocross because the front would simply push wide (TC/ DSC off, as always).

If the handling is as you say I'd swap all four tires before your track day, you'll have much more fun. Yes the car can easily bite the over-exuberant or inexperienced, but in my experience it's easy to play with the tail very far out with few concerns, even in the wet, on the right rubber. On the wrong rubber you're right, it's a handful, and the abrupt breakaway of worn PS2s is easily the worst I've experienced on the car. On the right tires it's bliss...

It's good to hear that you find the 1M very sensitive to the tire condition, I'm pretty sure that what causes this are the tires too because the rear of the car is getting worse and has I said the car has zero understeer, never happened even when I try to enter a corner too fast, and, from your experienced and from what I read about the 1M, it always tends to understeer a bit first so clearly something is wrong with mine.

I agree with you, but I don't want to take a brand new set of tires to a trackday, I'll will play with the old ones, and then buy 4 PSS, they are not very cheap so I don't want to destroy them in one day.