Discussion: Will 135i be more of a driver's car than 335i?

[atr_hugo]

Originally Posted by kurichan

Driver's Car:

• Prioritizes performance driving dynamics over other aspects
• Has a tendency to be smaller and lighter, as such physical properties contribute to positive driving dynamics
• Does not usurp control from driver via computers or other mechanical devices
• Does not cover up endemic driving dynamic flaws with electronic devices (I think an LSD is a good example of an exception)
• Price is not a consideration (a driver's car can be cheap just as well as expensive)
• One car can be more a driver's car than another, but a car does not become a driver's car by virtue of the other cars in its segment being less capable
• [add more here]

I'd suggest an addendum to 3 - 'unless the aids can be turned off'

What was the old salt? - 'you can't always make a pig handle but you can make a pig fly' - goes to point 4, awd on cars with a greater than 55% front weight balance (or like the Audis with the bulk of the engine ahead fo the front axle centerline)

As to [add more here], I'd add:

Transparent controls (no numb steering, brake pedal, clunky shifter, or crappy clutch - hmm, did I just say it must have a manual transmission, why yes I guess I did ; -)

Comfortable seating for two - any more is superfluous - OK, the +2 seating is acceptable.

Balance between power, braking and handling - has to feel like the total is greater than the sum of the parts (very subjective - because you could make a case that previous iterations of the Viper were not driver's cars based on that).

Gotta leave it at that, I just heard the announcer say, "Thanks for playing, next contestant please!" ; -)

[BForbes]

Considering only 1 person on this board has even touched a 1 coupe in the flesh, how are we really suppose to answer that. I mean I would hope so.

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I thought I stated it - did I only imply it? I'll be more careful from now on.


You don't have to start with the snotty stuff and make it personal. Please stay on subject.

As in my OP, I said we should WORK ON a definition. I chose that phrase carefully. It would be great if we could work on it together.



Yes, that happens when you use words and are trying to define something, as per my original post!

I'll give it a go to get us started.

Driver's Car:

• Prioritizes performance driving dynamics over other aspects
• Has a tendency to be smaller and lighter, as such physical properties contribute to positive driving dynamics
• Does not usurp control from driver via computers or other mechanical devices
• Does not cover up endemic driving dynamic flaws with electronic devices (I think an LSD is a good example of an exception)
• Price is not a consideration (a driver's car can be cheap just as well as expensive)
• One car can be more a driver's car than another, but a car does not become a driver's car by virtue of the other cars in its segment being less capable
• [add more here]

Please leave the lecture on keeping it personal at home. I reacted to your rather arrogant approach to this debate/conversation with what I thought was appropriate. This comment especially:

"But calling it a driver's car is at best entertaining, unless of course, you have a very low threshold for that definition."

Maybe it is just the way you come off, I don't know. Maybe its because you think you can define something that is undefinable. If your intent was peaceful, then forgive me if I reacted too harshly.

Back to the point. The idea of defining what a "drivers car" sounds cool, but it is impossible IMO. And since it is usually not a classification of a car, but rather a description, the description will depend on the person issueing the description. I tend to measure things in relative terms, not absolutes. Thus there are no rules to what I classify as a "driver's car".

A drivers car, to me, can be one that can be simply enjoyable to drive. Or, on the other hand, the enjoyment can be derived from superior performance on the track. Even further still, it can be one that has been designed with obvious bias towards the driver and the driving experience. So, to me, a 2002, a 335i, and an Enzo would all be considered "driver's cars". Further, how the car compares to its contemporaries factors in as well, such as saying that a car is the "driver's car of the group".

Maybe you are trying to define something closer to "performance car" or a "pure driver's car"?

[aesthetect]

dear kurichan,

your argument is that the 335 is not a driver's car. people are disagreeing with you. many are claiming that it is a true drivers car, including many many magazine reviews. many are also claiming that it is the best in that segment (mutually exclusive). there are some compromises made in this design to facilitate space and marketability. the 1 represents the same design with a bit more on the performance end of this compromise. the N54 based Z even more so. so YOU are defining that line of "drivers car" at the 1? What if i say bullshit, its got 2 extra seats, the Z is a drivers car. thats minimum compromise, as you stated. i better not see you driving a 1 series or ooooh will i be shaking my fist. regardless, you do not get to choose. that is an opinion. it is irritating and ignorant to maintain such an arbitrary and equally callous argument. and it is also counterproductive to healthy, friendly discussion.

what was the original subject? "Will the 135i be more of a driver's car than 335i?" nows your chance! yes! because in your opinion the 335 is not very much of a drivers car at all!

also, with respect to your very last comment addressed to me, you do realize the 135 is based of the 335 chassis? there is a thread on here somewhere where somebody put both of the graphics for each car's dimensions, that would be useful but i cant find it.

[qaz393]

no because of a fake wannabe lsd. both cars will never be as good as a M car

[FinInk]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I do too, when shopping for a family car. Just not when shopping for a "driver's car."

What excites me about the 135i is the prospect of a smallish attractive driver's car that gets back to the BMW composed/balanced feel that I enjoy so much.


I did. I own one of the ultimate driver's cars already - 1250 pounds, 170 horsepower, mid-engine, no power steering, no power brakes, manual transmission, tons of go, and sublime drifts.


Wrong. Perhaps right for some people, but you're reading me wrong.


Hahaha. I am so hardhearted. I must be crushing people's spirits with this debate!

You call my line of thought impractical. I think of it as uncompromising. The concept of a driver's car is drivability over practicality with minimum compromise.


Weight isn't everything. Wheelbase and track have a huge effect on driving feel, which is why the 335i has become so disappointing. It's just too big.

First of all I'm looking at both cars in the future. It all depends on how this car does WHEN IT COMES OUT. But dude I'd hate to say it but you're setting yourself up for dissapointment (unless somehow you're standardss magically change and you need to reassure yourself of your purchase). Around 100 lbs (if it even really is that much) and slightly bigger brakes aren't going to change this into the driver's car that differs so extremely from the 335i that you seem to hate so much. Want a drivers car? Grab an NSX.

[SD330i]

Wow this is the best thread I have seen in a long time. some really good stuff. I sucks when people get all personal but you know that is how people are. on to the discussion as I have to bite here.

I am suprised that no one brought up the MT article of the new G37 coupe comparision to the 335? I think that it would dampen the comments about the 335 being a superior coupe. I am also suprised that for some of us that have owned previous BMWs chime in on how the E90 drives compared to the E46?

I will bring this back to the topic without trying to define or redefine what people think a drivers car is. I will take it for I fealt the intention was which will the 1 series be more fun to drive then 335i. If you like:

• "smaller" car and less weight.
• Better stopping ability
• Same engine as a 335
• dont care about a more luxury feel

the answer is YES.

With all this said, if just on the cars alone the 1 series is to a 3 series like and E46 is to an E90, then It will be more of an "enganging" expereince. If you give me all the best stuff of the 335i (ie the engine) and add it in, then THIS IS THE CAR FOR ME!

Lets be honest if it drives just like a 3 series then those of us who want to throw down the coin will be buy it instead.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I'll give it a go to get us started.

Driver's Car:

• Prioritizes performance driving dynamics over other aspects
• Has a tendency to be smaller and lighter, as such physical properties contribute to positive driving dynamics
• Does not usurp control from driver via computers or other mechanical devices
• Does not cover up endemic driving dynamic flaws with electronic devices (I think an LSD is a good example of an exception)
• Price is not a consideration (a driver's car can be cheap just as well as expensive)
• One car can be more a driver's car than another, but a car does not become a driver's car by virtue of the other cars in its segment being less capable
• [add more here]

+1


Those are top priorities on my list as well. I hope no one is offended by 335i is not a driver's car. It is simply one's opinion and that's why I created this thread to hear people's opinions.

Another characteristic of driver's car should be

Able to provide satisfying and rewarding experience to the driver without emphasis on speed. Although speed is often a by product of driver's car. (ie 0-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad figures aren't necessary contributing causes to a car being a driver's car but they have strong correlation to one.)

[Maximus Decimus]

Wow, thread has been totally hijacked. Here I was thinking the point was; 'Is the 135 more of a drivers car than the 335'. I must have totally failed reading comprehension at some point.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus

Wow, thread has been totally hijacked. Here I was thinking the point was; 'Is the 135 more of a drivers car than the 335'. I must have totally failed reading comprehension at some point.

If it weighs just one ounce less than the 335i and has the same motor and handling characteristics then of course the answer is yes. If it handles better and is more nimble and brakes better then it's a no brainer. Yes.

[Vornado]

[Khobin~]

Let me just throw this one there....

A driver's car, is any car that:

1. every time you sit in it it puts a smile on your face.

2. the noise of the engine/exhaust, smell of the interior, feel of the steering wheel, puts a smile on your face.

3. when you drive it, you could forgive any of it's "flaws" simply because it puts a smile our face.


My XR is NOT the fastest machine out there. It has A/C, that doesn't work), sometimes it creaks when it hits a bump, but it goes where I want it to, when I want it to, and everytime I sit in it I forgive all it's flaws, and wonder "Why am I possibly thinking of getting rid if it?"

It IS a Driver's Car, and if you can say you feel the same about any other car, then so is it.

As for whether the 135 will be more of a driver's car then the 335, for me it would all be about getting behind the wheel, and finding out for myself...but I must say, I have a feeling that once I do get in a 1 series it's gonna be my new Driver's car...:thumbup:

[oldblue]

Well, a short (and admittedly extreme) definition of a sports car:

Has nothing on it that doesn't make it go faster or stop.

Driver's car would then steer close to this and have to justify including
anything else.

I (mostly) agree with Kurichan,

Driver's Car:

• Prioritizes performance driving dynamics over other aspects
• Has a tendency to be smaller and lighter, as such physical properties contribute to positive driving dynamics
• Does not usurp control from driver via computers or other mechanical devices
• Does not cover up endemic driving dynamic flaws with electronic devices (I think an LSD is a good example of an exception)
• Price is not a consideration (a driver's car can be cheap just as well as expensive)
• One car can be more a driver's car than another, but a car does not become a driver's car by virtue of the other cars in its segment being less capable

Mike

[1ster]

A driver's car is whatever the motoring mags tell me it is!

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by aesthetect

dear kurichan,

your argument is that the 335 is not a driver's car. people are disagreeing with you. many are claiming that it is a true drivers car, including many many magazine reviews. many are also claiming that it is the best in that segment (mutually exclusive). there are some compromises made in this design to facilitate space and marketability. the 1 represents the same design with a bit more on the performance end of this compromise. the N54 based Z even more so. so YOU are defining that line of "drivers car" at the 1? What if i say bullshit, its got 2 extra seats, the Z is a drivers car. thats minimum compromise, as you stated. i better not see you driving a 1 series or ooooh will i be shaking my fist. regardless, you do not get to choose.

Dude, wipe the sweat out of your eyes - you're imagining things now. I never implied that I "get to choose" anything. I suggested a discussion. Maybe you could join and make some intelligent points instead of attacking me?

I didn't "draw any lines either." Stop putting words in my mouth and stretching the truth in your quest to attack me.

that is an opinion. it is irritating and ignorant to maintain such an arbitrary and equally callous argument. and it is also counterproductive to healthy, friendly discussion.

Thanks for the lecture on my ignorance.

I really am fortunate that you are here to educate me.

Your name calling certainly contributes to healthy, friendly discussion...

what was the original subject? "Will the 135i be more of a driver's car than 335i?" nows your chance! yes! because in your opinion the 335 is not very much of a drivers car at all!

I already stated my opinion on the matter, but thanks for the redundancy.:thumbup:

also, with respect to your very last comment addressed to me, you do realize the 135 is based of the 335 chassis? there is a thread on here somewhere where somebody put both of the graphics for each car's dimensions, that would be useful but i cant find it.

I suspect you're referring to the comparison with the e46? I don't know if the 135i is based on the same chassis (I suspect you may be wrong) but, frankly, that's totally extraneous to this discussion.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by 1ster

A driver's car is whatever the motoring mags tell me it is!

Especially MotorTrend! Those guys are the pinnacle of journalistic objectivity!

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus

Wow, thread has been totally hijacked. Here I was thinking the point was; 'Is the 135 more of a drivers car than the 335'. I must have totally failed reading comprehension at some point.

Hijacked how?

Seems to be on a very close, and inextricably related tangent to me? :iono:

[aesthetect]

Originally Posted by kurichan

Dude, wipe the sweat out of your eyes - you're imagining things now. I never implied that I "get to choose" anything. I suggested a discussion. Maybe you could join and make some intelligent points instead of attacking me?

I didn't "draw any lines either." Stop putting words in my mouth and stretching the truth in your quest to attack me.


Thanks for the lecture on my ignorance.

I really am fortunate that you are here to educate me.

Your name calling certainly contributes to healthy, friendly discussion...


I already stated my opinion on the matter, but thanks for the redundancy.:thumbup:


I suspect you're referring to the comparison with the e46? I don't know if the 135i is based on the same chassis (I suspect you may be wrong) but, frankly, that's totally extraneous to this discussion.

i was attacking you no more than you were attacking anyone claiming the 335 was a driver's car. you do have some good points, im just sayin dont state your opinions like theyre a fact everyone should accept, everything is relative; and it puts murky water over your useful insights. sorry it just really irritates me, especially when done hardheadedly. regardless, its pointless and we should move on.

edit: its all i could find for now but its something.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...=135+wheelbase

still cant find the the article but i believe the E87 (and hence E82) chassis was designed (around E46 dimensions) and was then used as the base for the E92 etc. i think its relevant in that it would have a large impact on stiffness, comunication and feel.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by aesthetect

i was attacking you no more than you were attacking anyone claiming the 335 was a driver's car.

I didn't call anyone "ignorant" or do any name calling at all.

you do have some good points, im just sayin dont state your opinions like theyre a fact everyone should accept

You're being awfully sensitive. It's called passion and it's not changing. I am intense. I am also known as incredibly sensitive to other people's feelings, to a point. By calling me ignorant, you have lost my respect (I don't expect you care, and that's fine).

everything is relative

And you accuse me of stating opinions as facts? Everything is not relative. That's absurd.

and it puts murky water over your useful insights.

The vast supermajority of people agreed with me. Only you and one other person took issue. I don't have trouble having a discussion, but not with people who sink to name calling. Wipe the sweat out of your eyes and reread the posts. I twice suggested we DISCUSS the meaning of driver's car. Instead of contributing to that discussion you attacked me personally. How is that constructive?

sorry it just really irritates me, especially when done hardheadedly.

You need to learn to deal with irritation with something besides public name calling.

And what is this "hardhearted" stuff you keep going back to? There is a HUGE difference between being passionate and intense, and being hardhearted.

It might help you to understand my passion and intensity on this subject: I am a car guy. Among the many hats I wear, I am CEO of an engine technology company. I grew up in a racing family. I am picky and opinionated about cars. My weekend car is 1,250 pounds, with no power anything and 170 HP. I also owned an 04 ZHP. The car was absolutely sublime (except for the engine glitches).

I wanted to replace it with a 335i, so I drove one (several times actually).

The car was an utter, complete letdown. Very little feedback - just numb, and much too big. It's a huge step backward for the 3er. And believe me - I wanted to like the car - I wanted to BADLY!

There several people over at bimmerfest who gave up their ZHPs and bought 335's thinking it would be an "upgrade" because of the HP.

Problem is, I can't find one that thinks they made the right decision - one even went so far as to get rid of his 335 and get a Mini-Cooper! There's quite a bit of complaints from people passionate about handling about the 335i - I am not some single nutjob troll on this subject. There is even a thread where a guy asks if he should give up his ZHP for a 335. About 90% or more of the posts told him to keep the ZHP... This is because the 335 is a big step backward for the 3er. There were numerous comments about it being a GT, and no longer a real driver's car - too many comprimises for comfort, size and marketing. Obviously, I agree.

My intensity and passion regarding the 335 is born of deep disappointment in what's happened to the driving dynamics of the car based on direct personal experience.

Out of curiousity, have you ever owned a 3er?

regardless, its pointless and we should move on.

A great start would be a direct reply that refutes, refines or adds to our attempt to come up with a definition of a driver's car.

There's something else that would help us move on, but I'll let you see if you can figure that one out for yourself...

(did I mention that I am stubborn and tenacious?)

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I didn't call anyone "ignorant" or do any name calling at all.



You're being awfully sensitive. It's called passion and it's not changing. I am intense. I am also known as incredibly sensitive to other people's feelings, to a point. By calling me ignorant, you have lost my respect (I don't expect you care, and that's fine).


And you accuse me of stating opinions as facts? Everything is not relative. That's absurd.


The vast supermajority of people agreed with me. Only you and one other person took issue. I don't have trouble having a discussion, but not with people who sink to name calling. Wipe the sweat out of your eyes and reread the posts. I twice suggested we DISCUSS the meaning of driver's car. Instead of contributing to that discussion you attacked me personally. How is that constructive?


You need to learn to deal with irritation with something besides public name calling.

And what is this "hardhearted" stuff you keep going back to? There is a HUGE difference between being passionate and intense, and being hardhearted.

It might help you to understand my passion and intensity on this subject: I am a car guy. Among the many hats I wear, I am CEO of an engine technology company. I grew up in a racing family. I am picky and opinionated about cars. My weekend car is 1,250 pounds, with no power anything and 170 HP. I also owned an 04 ZHP. The car was absolutely sublime (except for the engine glitches).

I wanted to replace it with a 335i, so I drove one (several times actually).

The car was an utter, complete letdown. Very little feedback - just numb, and much too big. It's a huge step backward for the 3er.

There several people over at bimmerfest who gave up their ZHPs and bought 335's thinking it would be an "upgrade" because of the HP.

Problem is, I can't find one that thinks they made the right decision - one even went so far as to get rid of his 335 and get a Mini-Cooper! There's quite a bit of complaints from people passionate about handling about the 335i - I am not some single nutjob troll on this subject. There is even a thread where a guy asks if he should give up his ZHP for a 335. About 90% or more of the posts told him to keep the ZHP... This is because the 335 is a big step backward for the 3er. There were numberous comments about it being a GT, and no longer a real driver's car - too many comprimises for comfort, size and marketing. Obviously, I agree.

My intensity and passion regarding the 335 is born of deep disappointment in what's happened to the driving dynamics of the car.

Out of curiousity, have you ever owned a 3er?


A great start would be a direct reply that refutes, refines or adds to our attempt to come up with a definition of a driver's car.

There's something else that would help us move on, but I'll let you see if you can figure that one out for yourself...

(did I mention that I am stubborn and tenacious?)

I respectfully 100% disagree with you in regards to the 335i. I am a sports car driver. I drive a car that is about 600lbs lighter than a 335i on a daily basis. I would have no problem whatsover driving a 335i on a daily basis. The driver feedback was incredible. It is really unfortunate that you feel that way but I dont think the 1coupe is going to change your mind. Pick up a magazine. There are at least 12 of them that praise this car. The 335i is dissapointing in regards to what???? The competition? I think not. The previous generation? I think not. These cars have gotten quicker, higher lateral g's and have the same spirit of the previous ones. I just hope when the 135i comes I dont have to read you bashing it. Hopefully I will be mature enough to not take it personally.

**EDIT- I know at least 3 people that went from M3's to 335i's. THE POINT is that these 3series NEVER went backwards. They conformed to what the buyers demanded.

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Pick up a magazine. There are at least 12 of them that praise this car.

This is of no value to me. I don't know many people who put any stock into automotive journalist opinions...

The 335i is dissapointing in regards to what???? The competition?

Once again, I don't think this is relative. I haven't driven the competition recently but would suspect that the 335 is vastly better than the other offerings.

But being better than something else doesn't mean a thing to me. Is dying in your sleep better than drowning? If so, would you choose to die in your sleep tonight?

The previous generation? I think not.

I think so, in terms of driving dynamics.

The car is certainly BETTER in countless ways and the Coupe is gorgeous.

But it's less of a driver's car and more a GT. It's too big and the driving dynamics have suffered. The car no longer communicates with the driver like the e46 because of mass and size.

These cars have gotten quicker, higher lateral g's and have the same spirit of the previous ones.

Quicker yes. More lateral G's, yes, but that's of very little consequence if it's not useful.

I just hope when the 135i comes I dont have to read you bashing it. Hopefully I will be mature enough to not take it personally.

I'll say exactly what I think. I hope you're "mature enough" to do the same about the pros and cons.

Besides, how can you even be convinced the car is any good before you've driven it, let alone seen it? I have high expectations, but I'm reserving judgement. What if it turns out to be crap and you bash it too? :biggrin: (don't forget, there have been many negative reviews of the 1er rear end suspension, and it's not changing fundamentally on the 1er Coupe).

**EDIT- I know at least 3 people that went from M3's to 335i's. THE POINT is that these 3series NEVER went backwards. They conformed to what the buyers demanded.

The 3er went leaps and bounds forward in terms of appearance, comfort, size and speed. And it suffered badly in terms of driving feel.

They built what buyers demanded. That's cool. They made compromises to sell more cars. One aspect of the car suffered for those compromises. It just happens to be the most important aspect of the car for me. :iono:

If it's not clear, I don't hate the 3er. It's a great car. But I am really disappointed that they made it into a GT.

BMW's solution appears to be the 1er. I hope they do it right.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by kurichan

This is of no value to me.


Once again, I don't think this is relative. I haven't driven the competition recently but would suspect that the 335 is vastly better than the other offerings.

But being better than something else doesn't mean a thing to me. Is dying in your sleep better than drowning? If so, would you choose to die in your sleep tonight?


I think so, in terms of driving dynamics.

The car is certainly BETTER in countless ways and the Coupe is gorgeous.

But it's less of a driver's car and more a GT. It's too big and the driving dynamics have suffered. The car no longer communicates with the driver like the e46 because of mass and size.


Quicker yes. More lateral G's, yes, but that's of very little consequence if it's not useful.


I'll say exactly what I think. I hope you're mature enough to do the same about the pros and cons. How can you even be convinced the car is any good before you've driven it, let alone seen it? I have high expectations, but I'm reserving judgement.

The 3er went leaps and bounds forward in terms of appearance, comfort, size and speed. And it suffered badly in terms of driving feel.

They built what buyers demanded. That's cool. They made compromises to sell more cars. One aspect of the car suffered for those compromises. It just happens to be the most important aspect of the car for me. :iono:

If it's not clear, I don't hate the 3er. It's a great car. But I am really disappointed that they made it into a GT.

BMW's solution appears to be the 1er. I hope they do it right.

I do agree that the 3 is more of a GT. But if you think about it, it always was. It was never perfect at one thing. It was good at everything. I have access to and I'm insured drive an E46 at anytime even though it isnt mine. When I drove a 335i, I was not thinking about the E46. Not at all. I think maybe what your missing is the more driver orientated interior of the E46(i do prefer the e46 interior). I dont know. Like you said, hopefully bmw does it right and it rings all of our bells.