Can die-hard stick lovers embrase Step?

[perral1]

Originally Posted by emtrey

7th to 3rd by flooring -not too likely, Probably would hit the rev limiter pretty quickly.

Have you driven a step 135 i ? When it downshifts 2 gears (not 4) the response is pretty dramatic.

*sigh* My point wasn't exactly which gears it was shifting between.

I've test driven the 335i step and a 135i mt (I got lucky, they had a used mt on the lot, otherwise this dealer never stocks non-M mt cars). The 335i step was good, but a little boring, I thought. I expect I'll probably find the DCT a bit boring also. To be honest, whenever I find myself in an auto (which is rare), I can't figure out what to do with my left leg. It's rather disorienting.

That said, most of my driving these days involves 220 mile drives on the highway, which involves either cruising in high gear or stop-and-go. In the case of the former, the transmission doesn't really matter, and in stop-and-go, an auto would be much less annoying.

Still, I have a feeling I'm going to miss the clutch.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by emtrey

7th to 3rd by flooring -not too likely, Probably would hit the rev limiter pretty quickly.

Have you driven a step 135 i ? When it downshifts 2 gears (not 4) the response is pretty dramatic.

It almost killed me one day. I was comming off of a short ramp into heavy traffic moving at 60, I was in DTC. I was heavy into the gas. I had just shifted into 3rd and I accidently hit to kick down without realizing it. The car slam shifted into first and it sounded like the car was within a few hundred RPM of redline. My car broke loose for a moment and nearly hit the car next to me.

I hate that stupid thing. Im seriously considering shimming a block and mounting it behind the accelerator so that it cant kick it.

[emtrey]

if you are that conflicted...get the 6mt. Doesn't matter much cruising on highway.

I consider myself a die hard MT (have another car w/ 6MT) guy BUT even if I could (wife and I switch cars on occasion), for my DD, I am done with MTs considering how well the new autos perform ( may not have said that 5 years ago)

I can't wait to see if the DCT narrows that gap a bit more. That would be a plus. My lease is up in 2012 and I will get another 135 so it will be DCT.

ps.A good friend traded his 6MT Mini-S for a 135 after he tried my car. Was looking hard for a 6MT but finally gave up. I asked him recently if he was sorry about not getting the 6MTand his answer.not one bit--this drivetrain(2010 135/step) is perfect IMHO. The DCT might make it MORE perfect....LOL

anxiously awating seat time w/ DCT and N55................

[perral1]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I hate that stupid thing. Im seriously considering shimming a block and mounting it behind the accelerator so that it cant kick it.

If kickdown works in manual mode on the DCT, I may be doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by emtrey

if you are that conflicted...get the 6mt. Doesn't matter much cruising on highway.

Already got a DCT on the way. Despite my misgivings, I do think that the pros outweigh the cons. The DCT is faster in a straight line, easier in traffic, and allows you to keep your hands on the wheel in the turns. The cons I can think of are that it's less fun, and has somewhat uncertain reliability.

[emtrey]

then I guess YOU will soon be telling all of us how it works. When I was waiting for my 2002 M-3, the wait was brutal. Not very patient when anticipating a new vehicle arrival.

Since then, except for MINI #2, no long waits. Just do the deal and p/u within days.
Alot easier on this old man's psyche.

Next 135 will be built to spec but not as tough to wait for since it will be new but similar.

When is the car due in?

[perral1]

Originally Posted by emtrey

When is the car due in?

I dunno. It just got to the port in germany yesterday. In about a month, hopefully? Not soon enough for me, to be sure

[emtrey]

Originally Posted by perral1

I dunno. It just got to the port in germany yesterday. In about a month, hopefully? Not soon enough for me, to be sure

depending on when its on the boat, figure 2 weeks across sea (unless boat sinks like one of my buddy's M-3s) and whatever time it takees to get thru VPC and to your dealer. 3-4 weeks sounds about right.


Call BMW rather then on line tracking. Much more accurate/up to date.

[gts135]

Does anyone do Step reprogramming to change kickdowns, hold at redline, etc?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BSM 335I

People that talk down on the step have never actually given it a chance because they are to busy being stuck on what they are used to. Which is the same way. I've owned both of bmws great transmissions and will honestly tell you that the step is and will always be faster then the manual. Everyone and their mom can back this up. Now that's not to say it isn't as fun either, having both hands on the wheel while going through some twisties and still having FULL control on changing any of the 6 gears is a blast!

I mean for crying out loud when I started with the 335i about 4 years ago the manual was the one being bashed and frowned upon because of it's lack of peofrmance of that in the step. All people are hearing is "automatic" but what they do not know is that while this may have a tq converte it sure as he'll does not feel like it and it for sure locks up once it is in sports mode or m. Believe me as I have done many tests to see and feel the difference of that with a manual by feathering and playing with the throttle and changing the gears manually. This step will even give you the jolt feeling you would get in a mt when switching gears as well as chirp 2nd and 3rd.

In short, any and all of my friends that have a manual and have had something negative to say about the P,R,N,D,M they stumbled upon while exploring the car I just offer them a ride real quick. That's all that was needed to rethink their impressions and opinions. True story.

I don't know who it is you are addressing with your comments.
But, I'd like to address your post.
There are only a few who are "down" on the automatic, and most of those posters pretty much just make a sentence or two and are on their way.
They have their steadfast opinion and won't be swayed, so really, why care then.

Also, I don't know the people who are down on the manual as having a "lack of performance". The only negative thing about the manual is that BMW tends to make the manual "soft" in operation with long throws, and an awkward clutch take up/friction point. That easily becomes a non issue once you get a feel for how it works and how to operate it properly. But, in terms of performance as a transmission, it is an often praised transmission by drivers and professional reviewers alike.

The "speed" question has 2 components here. One is, how fast the automatic shifts, which IS quicker than manual drivers.
And, the other is, acceleration speed, which is a null argument at best, because either transmission allows the car to accelerate at the same rate.

Judging by the tone of your post, you are bashing the manual and alluding to it being of lesser performance than a properly driven manual.
So in that regard you are being as negative as the minority of posters who bash the automatic, except you bash the manual.

I don't see your post as really adding anything of discussion value other than to praise the automatic as superior to the manual.
Yes, being able to keep both hands on the wheel while turning and cornering is a positive. But, if you are a good manual driver you would know that that aspect is quite minor. When driving a manual properly your hands are on the wheel except for the gear change, once done your hands should be back on the wheel. So, a gear change done properly will always land your hands back on the wheel during the actual point where you want/need both hands on the wheel. Being able to keep both hands on the wheel with an auto or dual clutch is great, because you never have to move your hand and then put it back. So, that gives a certain sense of "better or more" control, but in effect, is it "better or more" in control?
There are poor manual drivers who keep their hand on the shift lever nearly all the time, but that just shows their lack of skill.

Being able to chirp the tires on gear change means nothing with regard to having a torque converter. I don't get what relevancy you place on that, cause it's not evidence for anything.
It chirps the tires because of the engines power and it's in gear, and that's it.
More importantly, if you can't feel the torque converter working in your step trans, than you've convinced yourself that it's not there.

The step works exceptionally well, and it is "exceptional" because most automatics do not work this well, and even BMW's earlier versions didn't work this well. It is a fantastic automatic, but you sure do feel the torque converter, especially when in "D" mode and driven slow to moderately. In "DS" and manual modes it's much more responsive, but eve in those modes, driven normally off the line, you do indeed feel the torque converter, as you would feel a clutch engagement. With a poorly executed shift and/or driver, you REALLY feel the clutch engagement.

If you don't feel your torque converter, well, either you don't know what a torque converter feels like, or you've convinced yourself it's not there.
It's there.
The "feel" of it working is similar to feeling turbo lag. Even though BMW and Audi have made tremendous strides in 'nearly' eliminating lag, it is still there, and it's more prominent under certain driving conditions , just like the "lag" in a torque converter automatic. It's strides better than it used to be, but it's still there.

Is it really that relevant though? Is it that detrimental to enjoying the step trans? No. It's been so smoothed and controlled that it doesn't really matter much, just like the "near" zero lag of the turbo's.
Still, some people are bothered with these things more than others.
So be it.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by gts135

I love forums. A debate takes at least two people. 'I' stated an opinion that clearly said 'I' - then a second person takes up the comment and says 'let us' not get into a debate. Then don't take the comment personally and we won't have a debate! fwiw - What is a sports car for me may not be for you. Agreed. I never said otherwise. But my CS is more of a sports car to 'me' than my 135 is.

Who knows - I could be six years old and live in the North Pole - don't take a bunch of electrons on your screen too personally!

Attributing your opinion to my state of mind, only shows that you should heed your advice more so than giving it.

To be clear, I did not and am not taking your comments, personally.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by pDz

i'm pretty sure that RPM90 has already experienced this on the DCT.

i've only experienced this unwelcome "computer help" on DSG.

to me, those were the two open questions: if they have reprogrammed this for the 135i. on the M3, it will hold the gear at redline indefinitely.

I'm sorry if my comments led you to think I have experience with the DCT in the BMW, as I don't.

Actually, I commented on a different experience in the DSG than you did.
I don't remember that the DSG's I've tried, especially in the GTI, upshifted at red line in manual mode. My recollection is that it bounced off the rev limiter in manual mode if I didn't select the next gear.

Sorry for any confusion.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

It almost killed me one day. I was comming off of a short ramp into heavy traffic moving at 60, I was in DTC. I was heavy into the gas. I had just shifted into 3rd and I accidently hit to kick down without realizing it. The car slam shifted into first and it sounded like the car was within a few hundred RPM of redline. My car broke loose for a moment and nearly hit the car next to me.

I hate that stupid thing. Im seriously considering shimming a block and mounting it behind the accelerator so that it cant kick it.

I know this isn't what you said, but I wanted to point out that auto-manuals and DSG like dual clutch transmissions have programming that will not allow a downshift if the engine will hit red line, or some point close to that, given the gear you are in and the gear you select.

What you describe happened once to me in a DSG GTI too.
Coming fast into a turn, I selected downshifts, but lost count. I thought I selected 2nd, but the system must have got confused, or I hit the lever "down" too many times. Into the turn the trans shifted to 1st for a split second and then went to 2nd.

But, I was not familiar with the trans, but I still like these very much.
Given what happened to you and me, the programming does need some tweaks in my view. That's the biggest problem I have with auto-manuals and dual clutch type transmissions, the lack of visual or tactile selection of gear. The way it works now you have to count how many times you hit that lever of paddle. Yes, the programming won't allow a beyond red line down shift, but it can select a gear you are not expecting.
That's why I proposed the idea of having an actual manual type gear shift lever for a dual clutch type transmission. That way, if I want 2nd from 4th, I simply put the lever in the 2nd gear gate and KNOW that's the gear I selected. For performance driving I think a manual type gear selector would be great.

[gts135]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Attributing your opinion to my state of mind, only shows that you should heed your advice more so than giving it.

To be clear, I did not and am not taking your comments, personally.

Ahh, ok. Maybe your version of 'debate', 'advice' and 'opinion' are different than mine. Probably a regional thing.

[cs135i]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I could have forgotten, or VAG changed the DSG programming, but my last test drive of a VW GTI with DSG is that it would bounce the rev limiter if I didn't tell it to shift. DSG does have different shifts modes, just like the "D", "DS", and manual modes in the BMW automatic.

I found the DSG a blast to drive. Shifts were fast, direct, and great feel.
VW/Audi have continued working on the programming since that trans came to market. I'm sure BMW will continue to work it's DCT as customers responses come in.

The downshifts in the DSG were lightening fast. So much so that I didn't even question if I could do it quicker in a manual.
The thing that I would like to see in a dual clutch setup, is a shift lever that has a patterned shifter just like a standard manual trans has.
Meaning, if I want to go from 2nd to 4th, I simply move the lever from the 2nd gear position to the 4th gear position. It allows a better tactile interface. I posted this question in a thread, but it seems only a small number agreed or understood what I meant.
Oh well. I thought it would be cool.

Formal DSG driver here, and had exactly the same experience with you. Many people think they can do it better than DSG while they actually cannot. There are bunch of discussions about the downshift issues DSG box may have in the past. However, as time goes by (maybe due to their awareness of how bad they are at shifting, or maybe VAG did upgrade on the DSG programming), these debates sink...

All in all, issues in a computer-driven mechanisms can be easily addressed by programming at software side.

Originally Posted by pDz

street situations:
1. if you're on the highway in overdrive and you're enacting a pass --you 'could' go 5->4->3 or simply go 5->3 or even 6->4.

2. any state highway road where the posted speed limit is 45-55mph and you're turning off, you can easily execute a heel/toe downshift from 4->2 as you're turning off.

track:
1. if you're familiar with spring mountain motorsports (not the Radical layout), there are several places where you can gain a lot of time on people who will only go from 4->3 if you're going to go 4->2 because although you will be much closer to the limits of adhesion, you're absolutely in the powerband of the engine

the point being: it's not as though i'm making this stuff up, there are occasions that i can think of without thinking hard where a 2 gear downshift if practical and i honestly think the DCT impedes the driving process if you waiting for that downshift --i've run into this with VAG DSG on test driving and i was unimpressed.

i'd be curious if you were in those situations if you would serially shift through the gears or rev match your downshift for whichever gear you thought was appropriate coming out of a very tight turn or in passing? obviously if you have a pre-2011, you don't have DCT so you're either using the computer to downshift steptronic or a 3 pedal manual, right?

i think at the end of the day, going back to the original poster, if one is a "die-hard manual lover" steptronic is a suboptimal replacement. that's a simple question with a pretty straightforward answer. the rest is open ended discussion.

i find it curious how much you try to impose your thoughts on people or what you think the right answer is on other people. it's fun reading.

Just a thought, not meant to be arguing with any statement you guys come up with, that I'd rather bear with maybe 0.1 sec slower downshifts from 4-2 gear in a limited amount of conditions, than have to pick up a good driver shoe before leaving home, simply for that heel/toe action that I'm gonna perform just several times today

It may just be joking above, but pDz, we've got DSG box tuning now, for MK5 models with DSG, and it quitely addressed the obvious downshift delay, which makes it downshift two gears inline absolutely faster than 90 percent of all our manual drivers here. You may say I cannot back up my argument. I don't actually, cuz I'm in middle east and will have to drive up to 10 hrs to California or NYC to get my gear box tuned. However, tons of other DSG drivers did that and their reviews led me to conclude the above argument. If you still have a DSG car or your friend does, I recommend the DSG chip flashing to you, which may well address your problem with the two-gear downshifting in DSG box, unless you are as good as those best 10 percent manual drivers here...

Just a side note tho, I remember reading a post somewhere in the forum, if not in this thread, that over 90 percent people think they are better than average drivers, "in america at least."

[pDz]

Originally Posted by cs135i

Formal DSG driver here, and had exactly the same experience with you. Many people think they can do it better than DSG while they actually cannot. There are bunch of discussions about the downshift issues DSG box may have in the past. However, as time goes by (maybe due to their awareness of how bad they are at shifting, or maybe VAG did upgrade on the DSG programming), these debates sink...

All in all, issues in a computer-driven mechanisms can be easily addressed by programming at software side.



Just a thought, not meant to be arguing with any statement you guys come up with, that I'd rather bear with maybe 0.1 sec slower downshifts from 4-2 gear in a limited amount of conditions, than have to pick up a good driver shoe before leaving home, simply for that heel/toe action that I'm gonna perform just several times today

It may just be joking above, but pDz, we've got DSG box tuning now, for MK5 models with DSG, and it quitely addressed the obvious downshift delay, which makes it downshift two gears inline absolutely faster than 90 percent of all our manual drivers here. You may say I cannot back up my argument. I don't actually, cuz I'm in middle east and will have to drive up to 10 hrs to California or NYC to get my gear box tuned. However, tons of other DSG drivers did that and their reviews led me to conclude the above argument. If you still have a DSG car or your friend does, I recommend the DSG chip flashing to you, which may well address your problem with the two-gear downshifting in DSG box, unless you are as good as those best 10 percent manual drivers here...

Just a side note tho, I remember reading a post somewhere in the forum, if not in this thread, that over 90 percent people think they are better than average drivers, "in america at least."

my questioning specific to the BMW execution of a dual clutch transmission was:

1. does it shift up at redline? preliminary reports suggest "yes".

2. does it, by virtue of two clutches, take more "time" than either the SMG or 3 pedal manual? it's not splitting hairs here to say that any computer driven gearbox is going to be much more reproducible than any human on the street or on the track. it's a question of does the system respond immediately to the tap and when it does so, how does that length of time compare to any other transmission BMW uses for downshifting more than a gear at a time?

this absolutely has nothing to do with who's better at what from a human point of view. those are subjective questions.

if you read carefully, my questions are actually very finite, objective and answer-able.

[cs135i]

Originally Posted by pDz

my questioning specific to the BMW execution of a dual clutch transmission was:

1. does it shift up at redline? preliminary reports suggest "yes".

2. does it, by virtue of two clutches, take more "time" than either the SMG or 3 pedal manual? it's not splitting hairs here to say that any computer driven gearbox is going to be much more reproducible than any human on the street or on the track. it's a question of does the system respond immediately to the tap and when it does so, how does that length of time compare to any other transmission BMW uses for downshifting more than a gear at a time?

this absolutely has nothing to do with who's better at what from a human point of view. those are subjective questions.

if you read carefully, my questions are actually very finite, objective and answer-able.

Oh no, I wasnt answering the whole part or any part of your question, I just came up with those thoughts about toe/heel and posted it.

The only part that has to do with your post might be the tuning on the DSG box, it really improves the box and i am sure it will partly turn ur opinion on the downshift issue that DSG HAD.

[BSM 335I]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I don't know who it is you are addressing with your comments.
But, I'd like to address your post.
There are only a few who are "down" on the automatic, and most of those posters pretty much just make a sentence or two and are on their way.
They have their steadfast opinion and won't be swayed, so really, why care then.

Also, I don't know the people who are down on the manual as having a "lack of performance". The only negative thing about the manual is that BMW tends to make the manual "soft" in operation with long throws, and an awkward clutch take up/friction point. That easily becomes a non issue once you get a feel for how it works and how to operate it properly. But, in terms of performance as a transmission, it is an often praised transmission by drivers and professional reviewers alike.

The "speed" question has 2 components here. One is, how fast the automatic shifts, which IS quicker than manual drivers.
And, the other is, acceleration speed, which is a null argument at best, because either transmission allows the car to accelerate at the same rate.

Judging by the tone of your post, you are bashing the manual and alluding to it being of lesser performance than a properly driven manual.
So in that regard you are being as negative as the minority of posters who bash the automatic, except you bash the manual.

I don't see your post as really adding anything of discussion value other than to praise the automatic as superior to the manual.
Yes, being able to keep both hands on the wheel while turning and cornering is a positive. But, if you are a good manual driver you would know that that aspect is quite minor. When driving a manual properly your hands are on the wheel except for the gear change, once done your hands should be back on the wheel. So, a gear change done properly will always land your hands back on the wheel during the actual point where you want/need both hands on the wheel. Being able to keep both hands on the wheel with an auto or dual clutch is great, because you never have to move your hand and then put it back. So, that gives a certain sense of "better or more" control, but in effect, is it "better or more" in control?
There are poor manual drivers who keep their hand on the shift lever nearly all the time, but that just shows their lack of skill.

Being able to chirp the tires on gear change means nothing with regard to having a torque converter. I don't get what relevancy you place on that, cause it's not evidence for anything.
It chirps the tires because of the engines power and it's in gear, and that's it.
More importantly, if you can't feel the torque converter working in your step trans, than you've convinced yourself that it's not there.

The step works exceptionally well, and it is "exceptional" because most automatics do not work this well, and even BMW's earlier versions didn't work this well. It is a fantastic automatic, but you sure do feel the torque converter, especially when in "D" mode and driven slow to moderately. In "DS" and manual modes it's much more responsive, but eve in those modes, driven normally off the line, you do indeed feel the torque converter, as you would feel a clutch engagement. With a poorly executed shift and/or driver, you REALLY feel the clutch engagement.

If you don't feel your torque converter, well, either you don't know what a torque converter feels like, or you've convinced yourself it's not there.
It's there.
The "feel" of it working is similar to feeling turbo lag. Even though BMW and Audi have made tremendous strides in 'nearly' eliminating lag, it is still there, and it's more prominent under certain driving conditions , just like the "lag" in a torque converter automatic. It's strides better than it used to be, but it's still there.

Is it really that relevant though? Is it that detrimental to enjoying the step trans? No. It's been so smoothed and controlled that it doesn't really matter much, just like the "near" zero lag of the turbo's.
Still, some people are bothered with these things more than others.
So be it.

sorry you wasted your time with the reply above as you took it an entirely different way. I've owned both the 6mt and step for this car within the past 4 years, so I more than likely have more time behind the wheel with these cars. I also wasn't making the step to be the best transmission in the world or anything, just stating that most people that have never driven a step are the ones who like to bash on them, yet they have no experience about them. I love the 6mt in this car and my next car will be a 6mt no doubt. As for now I honestly had my own reasons for choosing the step this time.

It's funny when I had my 6mt 335i 4 years back, the majority of the 335i's were all step and I was the one being bashed on for having a 6mt lol but I still stood by it because it was more of a drivers car. The step honestly just feels quicker that's all. Then again that's a given being your not lifting your foot off the gas to shift. Even with that I still will be choosing a manual for my next car after I enjoy what my current one has to offer.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BSM 335I

sorry you wasted your time with the reply above as you took it an entirely different way. I've owned both the 6mt and step for this car within the past 4 years, so I more than likely have more time behind the wheel with these cars. I also wasn't making the step to be the best transmission in the world or anything, just stating that most people that have never driven a step are the ones who like to bash on them, yet they have no experience about them. I love the 6mt in this car and my next car will be a 6mt no doubt. As for now I honestly had my own reasons for choosing the step this time.

It's funny when I had my 6mt 335i 4 years back, the majority of the 335i's were all step and I was the one being bashed on for having a 6mt lol but I still stood by it because it was more of a drivers car. The step honestly just feels quicker that's all. Then again that's a given being your not lifting your foot off the gas to shift. Even with that I still will be choosing a manual for my next car after I enjoy what my current one has to offer.

No worries. Part of my occupation involves writing, so it's, obviously , not too burdensome for me to be so verbose.

As happens often on the internet, people can misread tone and intent.
I'm not immune. My apologies if I misread your tone or intent.