Faulty Logic Regarding 135i Pricing

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by Mr. E

Whats so funny?

Just guessing, but I would think that he's not buying into the C&D price estimates. That makes two of us.

An Acura TSX is over 28K, so I would be truly surprised if a 128i came in at 26K. Of course anything is possible, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[Mr. E]

All I know is BMW better keep the 135i under $35k if they plan on selling alot. The Evo is already pretty legendary for its handling and all around capabilities and Mitsubishi just made it better. Subaru has already proven they can make a badass car that sells pretty well in the STi and both those cars will be under $35k. BMW is the new kid on the block in this market and better not price itself out of it because only a true BMW fanboy would pay $5k more for a 135i than an Evo or STi. Dont get me wrong, I love what I am seeing on the 135 but I just hope BMW prices it competitively with the others.

[Hossam]

Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1

I think that some people have the mindset that because it is a “1-Series” and 1 is less than 3, it should automatically cost less than a “3-Series.” In my book, this is faulty logic.

I personally am thrilled that the 135i will be offered for less than $40,000 and I challenge anyone to name another car with a 300HP/300 lb-ft, twin turbo, I6 engine and the standard luxury features of the 135i along with a maintenance plan as comprehensive as BMW’s - for less than $40,000.

Do we have any professional marketing people here to let us understand better the difference between personal and collective market value?

[gbent]

Originally Posted by djminkin

Theyve already said they are not sending a lot of cars to the US. With only a coupe and convertible being offered, it doesnt seem like they have much motivation to make this car a steal or price it far lower than the 3.

What do you mean by "not a lot of cars"?:iono:

[TESLAASTRO]

Originally Posted by djminkin

Theyve already said they are not sending a lot of cars to the US. With only a coupe and convertible being offered, it doesnt seem like they have much motivation to make this car a steal or price it far lower than the 3.

where was this said?.....and why wouldnt they build enough to satiate demand?....

[TESLAASTRO]

Originally Posted by Mr. E

All I know is BMW better keep the 135i under $35k if they plan on selling alot. The Evo is already pretty legendary for its handling and all around capabilities and Mitsubishi just made it better. Subaru has already proven they can make a badass car that sells pretty well in the STi and both those cars will be under $35k. BMW is the new kid on the block in this market and better not price itself out of it because only a true BMW fanboy would pay $5k more for a 135i than an Evo or STi. Dont get me wrong, I love what I am seeing on the 135 but I just hope BMW prices it competitively with the others.

I have no inside info, but I've resigned myself to the fact that the 135 will not base for under 35k.....also, is it a fact that the 135 should be directly compared to STI and EVO?....to me, those cars are tuned up rally type cars for purely enthusiasts....I'm not convinced this is the market that BMW is aiming for with 135.....my thought is that it's a car to compete with G37 and IS350, both of which currently are at a price point of at least 5k less than 335 coupe....also, the idea that the 135 is a bridge between the Mini Cooper S and the 335 coupe (one being not enough car, the other being too much car, both in size and cost repectively) is an interesting one posted previously....

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by Mr. E

All I know is BMW better keep the 135i under $35k if they plan on selling alot. The Evo is already pretty legendary for its handling and all around capabilities and Mitsubishi just made it better. Subaru has already proven they can make a badass car that sells pretty well in the STi and both those cars will be under $35k. BMW is the new kid on the block in this market and better not price itself out of it because only a true BMW fanboy would pay $5k more for a 135i than an Evo or STi. Dont get me wrong, I love what I am seeing on the 135 but I just hope BMW prices it competitively with the others.

Dude, the 135i issn't competing with a Mitsu. The EVo doesn't have this level of luxury, maintenance, fit and finish, ride quality, engineering, ... etc!

The 1 series is a incarnation of the 1970's BMW 2002, which was a smaller, "drivers car". I see that with a less costly starting price how it's excited or perhaps sucked a few EVO/STI buyers, but thats not BMW's intent.

A well option 135i will probably be in the low $40k's

All things equal the BMW will be about $5k more than those brands.






-Garrett

[ChrisK]

It's unfortunate that the 135i will get compared on paper to the Evo, etc. ...but the 135i will always be a cut above.

It's a frickin BMW :headbang:

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by TESLAASTRO

I have no inside info, but I've resigned myself to the fact that the 135 will not base for under 35k.....also, is it a fact that the 135 should be directly compared to STI and EVO?....to me, those cars are tuned up rally type cars for purely enthusiasts....I'm not convinced this is the market that BMW is aiming for with 135.....my thought is that it's a car to compete with G37 and IS350, both of which currently are at a price point of at least 5k less than 335 coupe....also, the idea that the 135 is a bridge between the Mini Cooper S and the 335 coupe (one being not enough car, the other being too much car, both in size and cost repectively) is an interesting one posted previously....

IMHO you're partially right. I'm sure it isn't BMW's intention to have the 135i publicly compared to Evo X, STi, etc. but unfortunately it slots just well enough into that category to make comparisons stick. This is in spite of its luxury aspirations. Let's face it, the new Evo is moving that direction and is quite a bit cushier much to the fanboys' chagrin. Also, I don't think anyone would deny that BMW would love to have the 135i nab some potential Evo/STi buyers. The comparisons are going to occur, and if BMW's only justification for a hefty premium is "well, it's a BMW" then they're placing the model at risk. Will it fail? Not necessarily, but why not price the car aggressively to assure a foothold and then work from there? I can assure you that BMW will make their money in the long run...

BTW, the G37 and IS350 are clear 3-series competitors in the eyes of the automotive media so good luck with any official comparos with the 135i. But again, actual buyers will cross-shop whatever they think fits the bill.

All IMHO. This is always an interesting debate if you can keep the fanboys out of it...

[gbent]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Just guessing, but I would think that he's not buying into the C&D price estimates. That makes two of us.

An Acura TSX is over 28K, so I would be truly surprised if a 128i came in at 26K. Of course anything is possible, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

The TSX also comes with quite a bit of additional equipment, including leather.

Then there's the fact that Acura build quality is as good as any car out there, and resale value that is at least as good as BMW.

[djminkin]

Originally Posted by gbent

What do you mean by "not a lot of cars"?:iono:

First off only the coupe and convertible will be sent. I was told the bigger dealers will only be getting 20-25 cars per month, which is not a lot.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by gbent

The TSX also comes with quite a bit of additional equipment, including leather.

Then there's the fact that Acura build quality is as good as any car out there, and resale value that is at least as good as BMW.

Isn't the Acura TSX a 4-door, 4 cylinder sedan...? Front wheel drive..?

What criteria are you looing for in a car..?






-Garrett

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

It's an economic law or concept, so of course it applies to businesses although in some cases it has little to no impact such as when a business is in a steady state.

My apologies, but when you said that it applied to everything I interpreted that to mean that it was a universal law and that's clearly not it's intent.

Correct. I should have been more clear with my statement.

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Hey, what was the point of this thread anyway? Weren't we supposed to be blessed to give up our first born (or something like that) for the privilege of having a 135i? Sorry, but I'm not drinking that kool-aid. :drinking:

No, no, no... you have to understand that the 135i is much more than a privilege. You have to think of it in terms of God calling down to us and giving us this insane opportunity. Because BMW is being so kind in building us such a great car, it really should start at 45,000, not 35.

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Just guessing, but I would think that he's not buying into the C&D price estimates. That makes two of us.

An Acura TSX is over 28K, so I would be truly surprised if a 128i came in at 26K. Of course anything is possible, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

True, but I dont see TSXs flying off the Acura lots. They are nice cars but its impossible to see them as anything other than a fancy Accord with a torqueless engine. That's why it is hard to pin the pricing down with competitor's prices; most cars out there are, IMO, overpriced (TSX, Audi TT, Golf R32, etc.). It really leaves the EVO/STi crowd and while there will be no comparison in terms of comfort and everyday liveability, the 135i really is a cheap (comparatively) high-performance coupe with slightly more power than the Japanese rivals, and rear-wheel drive dynamics. Heck, Ive read on some forums that the 335i is already taking a bite out of this market, so the cheaper 135i, if priced correctly, could really start to attract some attention.

[gbent]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Isn't the Acura TSX a 4-door, 4 cylinder sedan...? Front wheel drive..?

What criteria are you looing for in a car..?






-Garrett

I'm not saying they are the exact same car, but the TSX is a high quality, well equiped (better equiped) sport sedan, that will definately be cross shopped with the 128i by people who are not interested in driving at 10/10ths.

[SD330i]

You all talk about price and what you are getting with the 135 vs the 335. There is no doubt that the 135 will be one hell of a car. Also there is no doubt in my mind that BMW will replace the 335 engine with something else more "powerful" fusing the gap between the 335i and the 420hp M3. Once again regaining the "value proposition" we all talk about. BMW has done this over and over.

My guess is that the will either be a beef up in HP to the 350 range bringing zero to 60 time just slightly below the 135. BMW will not change the price of the 335.

or

BMW will create an addition 3 model a 350i if you will with a V8 engine producing around 350hp pushing the price up slightly thus closing the gap between the M3 and opening up opportunities to use the engine in the X5, X6 and 5 series.

[Road Runner]

Originally Posted by Kenpotian

Do we have any professional marketing people here to let us understand better the difference between personal and collective market value?

Yes, I have a bachelor's in marketing... but I'm not going to dignify this "1 series should cost more than a 3 series" crazy talk with a response...

[Mr. E]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Dude, the 135i issn't competing with a Mitsu. The EVo doesn't have this level of luxury, maintenance, fit and finish, ride quality, engineering, ... etc!

The 1 series is a incarnation of the 1970's BMW 2002, which was a smaller, "drivers car". I see that with a less costly starting price how it's excited or perhaps sucked a few EVO/STI buyers, but thats not BMW's intent.

A well option 135i will probably be in the low $40k's

All things equal the BMW will be about $5k more than those brands.






-Garrett

Clearly you have never driven an Evo or STi. They handle and run a track just as good if not better than any BMW I have driven, especially the Evo. You might want to check out the new Road and Track where the new Evo X just ran a lap at Laguna in record time for a non supercar. Only car with a better time ever on that course was a Porsche 911 turbo.

If the 135i is priced around $40k, BMW completely defeats the purpose of an "entry" level car as a 328 would be cheaper. The Evo is a proven winner for steering, handling, cornering, braking etc..for over 10 years and they just made it better. The 135i hasnt proved jack shit yet so BMW shouldnt go pricing it out of the market is all I am saying.

[djminkin]

Originally Posted by Mr. E

Clearly you have never driven an Evo or STi. They handle and run a track just as good if not better than any BMW I have driven, especially the Evo. You might want to check out the new Road and Track where the new Evo X just ran a lap at Laguna in record time for a non supercar. Only car with a better time ever on that course was a Porsche 911 turbo.

If the 135i is priced around $40k, BMW completely defeats the purpose of an "entry" level car as a 328 would be cheaper. The Evo is a proven winner for steering, handling, cornering, braking etc..for over 10 years and they just made it better. The 135i hasnt proved jack shit yet so BMW shouldnt go pricing it out of the market is all I am saying.

I dont think BMW is in anway concerned with competing with Mitsu, Honda, or VW, they simply are a class above.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by djminkin

I dont think BMW is in anway concerned with competing with Mitsu, Honda, or VW, they simply are a class above.

You are delusional if you seriously think that...

BMWs have a lot virtues, no question. But that is no reason to ignore legitimate competition.

[djminkin]

Originally Posted by MPower

You are delusional if you seriously think that...

BMWs have a lot virtues, no question. But that is no reason to ignore legitimate competition.

History has proven it. Year over year BMW wins awards for their new motors and technology. They are one of the few motor companies, not to fall in financial troubles like so many others.
I think its clear that BMW primarily competes with Mercedes, Porsche and Lexus, with their entry level models competing with Infiniti, more so than Mitsubishi or Honda.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by djminkin

History has proven it. Year over year BMW wins awards for their new motors and technology. They are one of the few motor companies, not to fall in financial troubles like so many others.
I think its clear that BMW primarily competes with Mercedes, Porsche and Lexus, with their entry level models competing with Infiniti, more so than Mitsubishi or Honda.

You are looking with a narrow-minded perspective that i makes for a very inaccurate conclusion. Many forget, but BMW was having real, real troubles during the early 90s because the market dropped for the sport sedan and that was all BMW made. You had the 3er, the 5er, and, to some extent, the 7er. But even then, the 3er accounted for a huge amount of BMW sales. So when the market changed, BMW was slapped with a real problem and, fortunately, addressed some of the problems with the E36. But BMW still has had problems in the past. BMW is not immune these problems regardless of how many awards they win.

You can not be so arrogant to think that something like this can not happen again. It does not matter what your competitor's companies are and how many awards they have won. Last time I checked, the STi and EVO are very much award winning, race winning machines. To ignore them is just ludicrous. People who think that are badge-snobs, nothing more.

[Road Runner]

Originally Posted by djminkin

I dont think BMW is in anway concerned with competing with Mitsu, Honda, or VW, they simply are a class above.

Mitsu, Honda, VW, all build cars. BMW builds cars. If a BMW is too expensive or the value isn't there, you can buy a VW, a Mitsu, a Honda, whatever. You may not get the same performance, but you are also paying less money.

I find it pretty frustrating when fanboys come along and say "Well BMW doesn't compete with Japanese cars, or VW" or whatever. At the end of the day, they do, maybe not for everyone, but they do. Someone can come along and say, "cool, the 1-series has a lot of horsepower, oh but for $10 grand less I can go buy this japanese car that has only 40 hp less, why don't I do that, aren't they known for their quality too?"

Enthusiasts (most if not everyone on here), are generally a very informed group that is often pretty focused on only a couple of products which meet their wants and needs. We enthusiast's however, represent a fairly small % of the population. So even though BMW is clearly targeting enthusiasts with the 1, they would be remiss if they didn't make sure that the car was priced so that new buyers beyond enthusiasts would be interested in purchasing the car.

At the end of the day, BMW's mission is not to have to have the best brand image. Their mission is to increase profits and produce shareholder value, their well maintained brand image is just a part of their strategy to increasing shareholder value by selling cars. You don't increase profits and shareholder value by voluntarily limiting the production runs of your car and hiking the price of the vehicle to the point where you erode your value proposition to everyone but enthusiasts. And you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT increase shareholder value by saying "We are not in anyway concerned with competing with Mitsu, Honda, or VW, we simply are a class above." Can you imagine a CEO going to the Board and saying, "yeah we're not too concerned with what the rest of the market does, we're too good for them and people who buy Hondas or VWs aren't really interested in BMWs anyways. I think we're fine not expanding our market."

The fact of the matter is that every car, with the exception of maybe the Mazda Miata, gets bigger with age. As the cars get bigger and have more features, they get more expensive. When this happens, eventually you need to introduce a newer, smaller car, that will fit into the price gap you're older car used to inherit. Is everyone interested in bigger cars? NO. Are younger people interested in bigger cars, often NO, especially when they cost more. The 3 series is a bigger car than it used to be, enter the 1 series. Why are younger people so important then?

European and North American demographics are shifting. The baby-boomers are getting older and though they still have a lot of disposable income, guess who will have more soon??? Their kids, many of whom are now in their 20s, some in their 30s. Maybe in some crazy scheme to make money, BMW is targetting all those young professionals in their 20s and 30s who are quickly filling the void left by retiring baby boomers. And maybe, just maybe, they plan on selling the 1-series at a REASONABLE premium over VWs and Hondas so that someone who was looking at a well optioned GTI, WRX, or Accord Coupe can fulfill their dreams and buy a BMW instead.

Oh, but wait, BMW isn't concerned with what Honda, VW, and all those other manufacturers are doing.

Nevermind.