Prothane rear subframe bushings?

[Clovef]

Whiteline got back to me and with good news. Whiteline has updated their bushings from yellow to black. Sounds like they are about the same stiffness. Whitline was releasing their newest generation and sent out a survey asking customers about the color that is wanted. Apparently for the most part people wanted black so they are now black and the material they are made out of has received some improvements though I don't know the details of those. I'll be putting them on sometime over the next month and will add impressions once complete.

[c0ris07]

Finally an advantage of being Australian...just ordered a set of nolathane for $67

[odj]

This thread has been really helpful for me, so I figure I might as well add my experience . I installed the whiteline KDT917 bushings in my 135 this weekend.

Here are the tools I used:



Of note: E16 and E18 Torx bits, 17mm and 18mm sockets, 15mm box wrench, and an assortment of large sockets (22mm, 26mm, 30mm, I think...), and the almighty heat gun.

I put the front end up on ramps to distribute more weight to the rear, then jacked the car up from the rear subframe and placed jack stands under the jacking points on the two rear sides.

I recommend putting some ballast in the trunk. I put one of the wheels in the rear, but still had to apply force to the trunk area to get a couple of the bushings all the way out.



I recommend starting on the passenger side. There's more room to play with so you can get your technique down.

I'm not sure if all 135s came with this V brace, but you need to use a 18mm to remove the bolt going into it (already removed, toward the top of the pic)



Then use an E16 torx to remove the two bolts holding the other brace piece to the car (that's where the 18mm bolt threads into, shown here removed). They're a little bit of a pain to get to without removing the plastic fairing, but not impossible.



Remove the 17mm nut holding the bottom of the shock body in. 15mm box wrench keeps the shock from turning.



Then support the subframe (I started with the rearmost mounts) and remove the two E18 bolts holding that side in. I used a piece of 2x4 and my jack.

For the front subframe mounts, just use your jack on the pivot thing that comes down a bit, near the mount. When you move the jack around, you can use additional sets of jack stands to support the subframe

Unclip the sensor wires and keep them out of the way with a tie of some sort. Also remove the plastic clip closest to the mount before you start working. Otherwise it'll melt

Lower the subframe with your jack, and put an appropriately sized socket between the bushing and the body.



Apply heat. With the rears, I focused on the open area in the subframe and shot the heat in there, on the highest setting my little Harbor Freight heat gun had. Be careful of plastic things while you're in there.

Wait 'til it starts smoking, at that point it should start sliding out. One one of the driver's side bushings, I actually had to open the trunk, climb in, and bounce up and down to get that bushing all the way out.



There's less room on the driver's side, since the brake lines prevent you lowering the subframe too much, so I had to use smaller sockets.



Getting the inserts into the bushings is kinda a PITA even with the lube, so I used the jack, wood block, and 30mm socket to push the inserts in.



Here's how the rears sit installed:



And the fronts:



And the two side by side:



The whole process took about 2.5 hours, unrushed.

Be careful working around the brakes. I was not watching my hand when removing the E16's on the passenger side, and snagged the brake sensor wires with my wrench.



Fortunately, you can just tie the connectors together and bypass the warning lamp as a temporary fix.



Anyways, hope that was helpful.

[DietTab]

Just want to add to this thread that you can fill the bushing holes on the smaller bushings with round aluminum stock cut to length to stiffen them farther (just find stock the right size and push it in). The holes are just there to add compliance.

[Spin_dry]

A must do.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

Thanks guys....just an update...I was back in there this past week doing my LSD and M3 upper control arms.

RSFB still look like the day I put them in. I actually had to lower the rear part of the subframe to get my rear differential bushing changed and took one of the RSFBs out while I was in there to examine it...looked great.

Here's a couple pics.

M3 (TRW) upper rear control arms in...

Attachment 976083

I know this is late. Just installing my M3 rear arms now. In your pic, the front arm (on the right in the pic) is on the incorrect side. That is the left side arm. Not sure if it makes a difference.

The upper arm curves towards the top, the forward arm curves towards the bottom.

[houtan]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I know this is late. Just installing my M3 rear arms now. In your pic, the front arm (on the right in the pic) is on the incorrect side. That is the left side arm. Not sure if it makes a difference.

The upper arm curves towards the top, the forward arm curves towards the bottom.

Daym. Cant remember which way I installed mine lol. Thanks for the heads up

[KRyn]

Question, do you guys think it is physically possible to use the two jack method to install a set of solid subframe bushings (MRF Engineering or MachtSchanell) or will the subframe have to be removed and a press used to install the bushings?

[Fidiman]

Regarding to the post of odj, I contacted Whiteline to get the stiffness of their bushings : it's 80A like the Powerflex Purple.

I think it's even harder than the OEM M3 ones with the advantage of being in two parts ... And for sure, harder than ours which are 65-70A stiff !

Any other inputs here ?

[DSTSuspension]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

I'm getting ready to replace these and I started searching after getting a quote from Powerflex for $299.

Has anybody tried these for $179?

I know you often get what you pay for, but they're both urethane, they both have steel inserts, and look very similar...the one thing I do notice is that it appears as though Prothane's front and rear bushings are two piece and Powerflex's front are two piece and rears are one piece?

Are these new to market and Powerflex didn't have any competition aso we get hit with the BMW tax or is it an inferior product?

Prothane...


Powerflex...

They have a new design now,
http://www.whitelinesuspensionparts....sp?prod=KDT917

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by DSTSuspension

They have a new design now,
http://www.whitelinesuspensionparts....sp?prod=KDT917

Awesome, thanks for the tip! Wonder if they tinkered with the density at all.

[SteveAZ]

Originally Posted by DSTSuspension

They have a new design now,
http://www.whitelinesuspensionparts....sp?prod=KDT917

Thanks....you are correct, we actually have a set of those and the inserts at the shop waiting to go on our new (to us) 335i test mule for comparison testing.

Now we just need to get time to install them.

[Griff500]

Originally Posted by KRyn

Question, do you guys think it is physically possible to use the two jack method to install a set of solid subframe bushings (MRF Engineering or MachtSchanell) or will the subframe have to be removed and a press used to install the bushings?

Hi, I did this at the weekend but the subframe was already out of the car. The solid aluminium bushes took some force to fit! I made a very substantial puller (inch thick aluminium) and pulled the bushes in using an impact wrench.

It would have been very hard to do this with the subframe still fitted to the car.

[KRyn]

Originally Posted by Griff500

Hi, I did this at the weekend but the subframe was already out of the car. The solid aluminium bushes took some force to fit! I made a very substantial puller (inch thick aluminium) and pulled the bushes in using an impact wrench.

It would have been very hard to do this with the subframe still fitted to the car.

Thanks for the heads up.

A buddy of mine tried to install solid rear sub-frame bushings himself last week. He was unable to properly seat them with a similar contraption he built (he only had an electric impact). He had to remove his rear sub-frame from his car and take it to a shop to have them pressed in the last few millimeters. I will likely just have a shop install my solid bushings and rear sway bar and save my self the trouble.

[JRMorgan]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

Well, I'm sure it'll make another noticable difference once I go to coilovers, but thus far my mods have corrected the most glaring short comings of the stock suspension, especially if it's for a daily driver.

The nice thing is that you can make a pretty big change to the cars handling for a modest investment.

-M3 (TRW) arms -$400
-E92 (or E93 for a vert) FSB - $300
-RSFB -$200
-Alignment - $100
-Front strut pin removal for better camber - Free

So for a grand (if you DIY) you can make a pretty big change to the cars handling and in my opinion really transforms it. Much more so that $1000 set of coilovers, which I definitely don't want on my car. Given I'm not looking to lower the car for a few reasons, such as maintaining stock geometries, it's good for now. In a few months I'll be going to the Ohlins R&T and change out the rear control arms but feel as though I can now wait and get the good stuff instead of rushing in to something less expensive.

I like your approach and I want to do the same. But I really can't DIY it. So what rear parts do you think I should change while I have someone doing the RSFB? I really want to take care of as much as I can while someone is working on it.

[_Ryan_]

Originally Posted by JRMorgan

I like your approach and I want to do the same. But I really can't DIY it. So what rear parts do you think I should change while I have someone doing the RSFB? I really want to take care of as much as I can while someone is working on it.

Get the e92/e90 front swaybar.
1M rear kit. When fitting the rears I would use the Turner alu subframe bushes so that it never has to come out again.
Assuming you're using the TRW/M3 arms front/rear too

[JRMorgan]

Originally Posted by _Ryan_

Get the e92/e90 front swaybar.
1M rear kit. When fitting the rears I would use the Turner alu subframe bushes so that it never has to come out again.
Assuming you're using the TRW/M3 arms front/rear too

I'm going to get the TRW arms for the front but not sure about the rear.

So far AFAIK:

Turner Alu Subframe Bushes
TRW Front Control Arm Kit
E93 front swaybar
Technafit SS Brake lines (might as well)
Rear TRW Guide Rod Kit

Possibly M3 rear sway bar - but I'm worried as I've heard putting this on without an LSD can be problematic

Front Camber plates - not sure if I really need this

I'm not sure what the 1M rear kit is or where I can buy it.

[_Ryan_]

Originally Posted by JRMorgan

I'm going to get the TRW arms for the front but not sure about the rear.

So far AFAIK:

Turner Alu Subframe Bushes
TRW Front Control Arm Kit
E93 front swaybar
Technafit SS Brake lines (might as well)
Rear TRW Guide Rod Kit

Possibly M3 rear sway bar - but I'm worried as I've heard putting this on without an LSD can be problematic

Front Camber plates - not sure if I really need this

I'm not sure what the 1M rear kit is or where I can buy it.

1M rear swaybar is a differing part number to the E90; same/similar price.
If you subframe is out and you are doing the front swaybar, I suggest doing this to save on labor. I advocate treating bars as matched pairs.
I also question the use of the E93 over the E90 front bar.
If doing the TRW rear guide rod, grab the set.
I would leave camber plates until the above is complete and you are doing your coilovers (shocks + springs).

See my garage tab on my profile for context.

[SteveAZ]

It's going to be interesting this time around. Now that we have the 135i that has had virtually all the suspension upgrades done and have a 335i (Msport) you can really tell the difference between the two in regards to the ride and handling.

The 135i feels racing and edgy while definitely having a rougher ride. Although in all fairness I think even if it was stock vs stock the 135i would be a rougher ride.

Thus far on the 335i the only suspension upgrade has been the front sway bar for testing. It's a Whiteline and we'll probably swap it our for an E92 M3 sway bar. I liked the E93 one better on our E88 but thought I'd give the Whiteline a try. As mentioned we have the Whiteline RSFB inserts and new replacement bushings to try on this car. It needs them pretty bad...the rear end is way to soft for my liking. However we're going to keep this one a bit more mild in terms of ride quality.

We'll try to remember to update and provide more info/pics as we go.

[_Ryan_]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

It's going to be interesting this time around. Now that we have the 135i that has had virtually all the suspension upgrades done and have a 335i (Msport) you can really tell the difference between the two in regards to the ride and handling.

The 135i feels racing and edgy while definitely having a rougher ride. Although in all fairness I think even if it was stock vs stock the 135i would be a rougher ride.

Thus far on the 335i the only suspension upgrade has been the front sway bar for testing. It's a Whiteline and we'll probably swap it our for an E92 M3 sway bar. I liked the E93 one better on our E88 but thought I'd give the Whiteline a try. As mentioned we have the Whiteline RSFB inserts and new replacement bushings to try on this car. It needs them pretty bad...the rear end is way to soft for my liking. However we're going to keep this one a bit more mild in terms of ride quality.

We'll try to remember to update and provide more info/pics as we go.

Interesting. The Whiteline bars are ~60% the cost of M1/1M bars in AU but seem to be a similar spec to the H&R... Interested if you can share some more detail on them.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

It's going to be interesting this time around. Now that we have the 135i that has had virtually all the suspension upgrades done and have a 335i (Msport) you can really tell the difference between the two in regards to the ride and handling.

The 135i feels racing and edgy while definitely having a rougher ride. Although in all fairness I think even if it was stock vs stock the 135i would be a rougher ride.

Thus far on the 335i the only suspension upgrade has been the front sway bar for testing. It's a Whiteline and we'll probably swap it our for an E92 M3 sway bar. I liked the E93 one better on our E88 but thought I'd give the Whiteline a try. As mentioned we have the Whiteline RSFB inserts and new replacement bushings to try on this car. It needs them pretty bad...the rear end is way to soft for my liking. However we're going to keep this one a bit more mild in terms of ride quality.

We'll try to remember to update and provide more info/pics as we go.

What don't you like about the whiteline FSB?

[SteveAZ]

When I get in an E92 M3 FSB, I'll compare and let you judge for yourselves.