Header options for RHD N52 cars

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by _Ryan_

Why?

Because their results ao far have been less than stellar, especially with headered cars.

[Dafttt]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Because their results ao far have been less than stellar, especially with headered cars.

Less than stellar how?

[Taskmaster]

Less then Steller in terms of Customer service for one. On an objective measure, they make less power than similar tunes.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...1028106&page=3

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=916863

[Dafttt]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Less then Steller in terms of Customer service for one. On an objective measure, they make less power than similar tunes.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...1028106&page=3

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=916863

This doesn't really help. I can't read the numbers in the first link and I only found one graph in your dyno thread (Evolve+headers) from thestig.

Do me a solid and link me to AA+headers graphs, specifically. I'm only asking because I'm in the market for a header tune.

Oh, and does OE have a header tune?

[MBan]

I've read Mark's thread about his experience with Evolve - it sounded like a nightmare - but I'm not going to write them off based on that alone. The other link to Soccs poor outcome doesn't (yet) speak to customer service.

TheAxiom - what is bad about Evolve's +header tune? Is it just power or AFR as well? Like Dafft, I'm keen to see an AA tune with manifold (before and after) and an evolve tune with manifold.

To me it seems there are a lot of variables that could be influencing individual results and make between-car comparisons difficult.
I've seen dyno results from BMR Autowerkes for Australian cars with an evolve tune and they look strong. None with headers though.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MBan

I've read Mark's thread about his experience with Evolve - it sounded like a nightmare - but I'm not going to write them off based on that alone. The other link to Soccs poor outcome doesn't (yet) speak to customer service.

TheAxiom - what is bad about Evolve's +header tune? Is it just power or AFR as well? Like Dafft, I'm keen to see an AA tune with manifold (before and after) and an evolve tune with manifold.

To me it seems there are a lot of variables that could be influencing individual results and make between-car comparisons difficult.
I've seen dyno results from BMR Autowerkes for Australian cars with an evolve tune and they look strong. None with headers though.

Soccs poor outcome was one,
ST|G's less than stell results was the other (but we'll see, his conditions weren't ideal)
Andry's 10hp gained for the 128i w/manifold, and 0 for the tune.

VS DESI's 20whp gain with the same mod (10 or so for the manifold and additional power/torque gains with the tune -over 20whp combined

I gained 20whp with my OE tune, ane I think there is still more.

Then there is JustPete's manifold +header +AA with a 35whp gain over stock
AA's test 128i was 45ish whp over stock (baselined 20Xwhp to 248whp after 3stage, headers, tune)

There is also the in house tuned 328i with 222whp on a Mustang dyno, which supposedly dynos 10% less than a dynojet. Do the math and that's 244whp...almost in line with the 128i, and still higher than Evolve.

[MBan]

Thanks for the list above. AA are back on my list now that I know they remote tune although will need some more research.

So Andrey, Stig and Soccs have evolve and the rest in that list have AA?
You said you've got an 'OE' tune - is that a brand or some kind of original equipment retune?

[Taskmaster]

Not to knock Evolve, because ST|G is happy with his tune and makes crazy torque, but I haven't been surprised by anything else they've done honestly.

[Fume]

Does AA have a lot of experience with the 125i? I would have thought AA would be good with 128i since they are based in America while Evolve would be more familiar with the 125i which is sold in the UK.

[MBan]

Originally Posted by Fume

Does AA have a lot of experience with the 125i? I would have thought AA would be good with 128i since they are based in America while Evolve would be more familiar with the 125i which is sold in the UK.

That was one of the reasons Evolve got to the top of my list but there's no harm asking AA the question. i haven't yet seen an AA tune on a 125i but there may be some out there.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Fume

Does AA have a lot of experience with the 125i? I would have thought AA would be good with 128i since they are based in America while Evolve would be more familiar with the 125i which is sold in the UK.

Same ECU, same car, go with who makes the most power for the lowest cost and has good support.

[MBan]

I'm doing the research now and OE and P-Torque have been added to the 'potential' list. The U.S. companies are understandably reluctant to say they can get the 20% plus hp gains that Evolve and P-Torque have evidence of but both AA and OE can adjust the valvetronic maps so should - in theory - be able to get 130i power out of a 125i.

Runs on the board trump theory though. I'm still collecting info so we'll see what I turn up.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Soccs poor outcome was one,

Andry's 10hp gained for the 128i w/manifold, and 0 for the tune.

VS DESI's 20whp gain with the same mod (10 or so for the manifold and additional power/torque gains with the tune -over 20whp combined

I gained about 5whp on the tuned dyno just days after getting it working. It is very smooth and the dyno shows that the 7k is fixed and the middle is linear now, no dip. I wish the dyno showed more, but I cant knock the refinement. I went Evolve because they are 100% stealth for headers and they dyno'd 125i's and 130i's with high numbers, and I want to do those as a capstone for power.

Desi is local to me and we dyno's on the same machine. I was there when he dyno'd his AA tune( hot day and it was my Exhaust only run). He was a bit under whelmed about top end ( this was the 2012 stage 2 version of the tune), but the tune does wonders in the middle near the Dip, other dynos support AA & middle doing well.

Originally Posted by MBan

I'm doing the research now and OE and P-Torque have been added to the 'potential' list. The U.S. companies are understandably reluctant to say they can get the 20% plus hp gains that Evolve and P-Torque have evidence of but both AA and OE can adjust the valvetronic maps so should - in theory - be able to get 130i power out of a 125i.
Runs on the board trump theory though. I'm still collecting info so we'll see what I turn up.

With a 125i and NonUSA gas, I say go for P-Torque. They post dynos all the time to their facebook page. BabyBMW forum members love their tune. My dyno Photoshop comparison showed they do top end well just like Germans, and are somewhere in between AA and Evolve in the middle.

OE Tune has been around a long time, they were one of the early DISA tuners on here in 2010-2011, as Axiom showed it dynos well because they updated their tune to keep up with AA's effort in 2013. In 2014 AA file has the Emmisions fix for headers.

I would also add Eurocharged to the list. They DISA tune as well local x28i's and once did some Asian n52's 125i's

Bottom line is a tune is refinement, you alone can decide how much to spend.

[MBan]

Thanks Andrey.

P-Torque, AA and OE are all about the same price at the moment as the last two have specials at the moment. Evolve are a bit more.

I checked Eurocharged website but they only list the 135i. I also didn't turn up much with a Google search. I'll shoot them an email though.

The only thing that makes me hesitate about P-Torque is that the dynos I've seen look a bit 'smoothed' for lack of a better word. Maybe the dyno software they use does that but it's hard to tell. Lots of people endorse P-Torque on BabyBMW.net but I've only seen two dynos and they both look a bit generic.

I've had a quick look at their Facebook page but didn't dig very far back in time. Have they posted any dyno charts that look more real life?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

I gained about 5whp on the tuned dyno just days after getting it working. It is very smooth and the dyno shows that the 7k is fixed and the middle is linear now, no dip. I wish the dyno showed more, but I cant knock the refinement. I went Evolve because they are 100% stealth for headers and they dyno'd 125i's and 130i's with high numbers, and I want to do those as a capstone for power.

Desi is local to me and we dyno's on the same machine. I was there when he dyno'd his AA tune( hot day and it was my Exhaust only run). He was a bit under whelmed about top end ( this was the 2012 stage 2 version of the tune), but the tune does wonders in the middle near the Dip, other dynos support AA & middle doing well.





With a 125i and NonUSA gas, I say go for P-Torque. They post dynos all the time to their facebook page. BabyBMW forum members love their tune. My dyno Photoshop comparison showed they do top end well just like Germans, and are somewhere in between AA and Evolve in the middle.

OE Tune has been around a long time, they were one of the early DISA tuners on here in 2010-2011, as Axiom showed it dynos well because they updated their tune to keep up with AA's effort in 2013. In 2014 AA file has the Emmisions fix for headers.

I would also add Eurocharged to the list. They DISA tune as well local x28i's and once did some Asian n52's 125i's

Bottom line is a tune is refinement, you alone can decide how much to spend.

Ehhh...not really, comparable man, I aaw that the 6500-7000 that the evolve picked up, but the 2500-6500 region, there really weren't any gains to speak of. Even with my OE tune, I made 20whp total over stock.

Here ia the problem with all of these companies and their dynos though: they don't live up to the hype.

A Baby BMW member independently dyno'd his P-Torque tune and found a lot less power than was advertised.

My OE initial tune was the same thing.

Your Evolve tune was tbe same.

Only on company really has the independent dynos that show proven gains, and that's AA.
In terms of feel, I'm sure they all do that, my car "feels" better, but I refuse to pay more for less.

I would find out what the 'return policy' is with any of these software products and don't believe the hype. The BEST option would be a dyno tune, and nothing off the shelf, it's what I'mdoing.

[Taskmaster]

Use the dynojet dynos, convert them to STD (vs SAE) by adding 2% and see if the gains are in line. I can do it for you tonight if you all want.

[andrey_gta]

Top end @ 7k RPM with any tune should be about 20whp gain because the manifold flaps are open and the Flap open effect has vanished = no difference from NonDisa manifold.

Disa manifolds have different torque curves and some inertia effects that do bump hp @ flap open events. This is why the manifold alone is like a tune. And why software aims optimizes the Flaps, but cannot make much increases in the middle since it is the mechanical flap that causes that gain, aside AA's bump in power in the middle.

I strongly believe that any DISA tune, with out the DISA manifold will look identical 95% of the time = linear increase up to a ~20whp gain.
the two differences will be:
European brands high octane tunes will have a exponential parabola shape towards peak at 7k all because of Gas quality
AA's will have a middle 3-4k hump as an increase in their valvetronic bump.

[Taskmaster]

I'll do some in depth analysis tonight, and I hope no one takes our current banter as a personal attack, or me being rude. We are all friends here.

[Taskmaster]

[MBan]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

... Only on company really has the independent dynos that show proven gains, and that's AA.
In terms of feel, I'm sure they all do that, my car "feels" better, but I refuse to pay more for less.

I would find out what the 'return policy' is with any of these software products and don't believe the hype. The BEST option would be a dyno tune, and nothing off the shelf, it's what I'mdoing.

Actually, the only company I've seen multiple independent 125i dynos for is Evolve, via BMR Autowerkes in Sydney. I have seen one independent OE tune for a 125i as well. I know you say the 128i and 125i ECUs are the same and tuning is tuning but experience is important. As I said earlier, being a guinea pig comes with risks.

P-Torque offer a 14 day money-back guarantee but as far as I know, the others don't

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MBan

Actually, the only company I've seen multiple independent 125i dynos for is Evolve, via BMR Autowerkes in Sydney. I have seen one independent OE tune for a 125i as well. I know you say the 128i and 125i ECUs are the same and tuning is tuning but experience is important. As I said earlier, being a guinea pig comes with risks.

P-Torque offer a 14 day money-back guarantee but as far as I know, the others don't

I can't tell you what to do, I can just say I haven't really been impressed with Evolve (for the price) personally. viciousgook got the OE tune on an automatic, and it made more power than the similar auto 125i with the Evolve tune.

Contact Evolve and see what they are offering in terms of deals, and talk to the local shop as well - in the end we are talking about a handful of hp anyhow.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I'll do some in depth analysis tonight, and I hope no one takes our current banter as a personal attack, or me being rude. We are all friends here.

I'm cool with the discussion, we did thread jack this.
Should we move the posts?