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      12-21-2019, 11:49 AM   #23
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I have been very happy wit PS4S (255f/275r) on stock wheels for daily use. I haven't run autocross or track on them. They do not tramline on uneven roads nearly as badly as RE11, RE71R or Rival S.
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      12-21-2019, 07:15 PM   #24
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I'm on my fourth set of PS4s on original rims. Suspension has camber plates, Dinan components and race springs. You need to find a new tire 'expert' to get advice from. After 140,000 miles with smiles I can confirm the sizes work great.
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      01-02-2020, 05:57 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsniper View Post
I put stock sized PS4's on my 1M this year and it now has tremendous grip - truly feels like 2x what the PS2s had. Not sure I would want much more grip as it would away from the balance/playfulness of the car at street speed.
With the stock sized ps4s fitted vs. The oem mps2 did you get any understeer with the new tire?

These new ps4s are not Bmw *star rated and I am concerned that the car may understeer similar to a set of pss non-star rated that I mounted to the car.

I want to maintain the cars stock handling as best as possible.

If you or others can comment on the retention of the oem handling that would be great.

How is the sidewall stiffness?
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      01-02-2020, 06:01 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
I have been very happy wit PS4S (255f/275r) on stock wheels for daily use. I haven't run autocross or track on them. They do not tramline on uneven roads nearly as badly as RE11, RE71R or Rival S.
Are you running stock suspension springs and dampers?

How are the handling characteristics, specifically any understeer?

The oem tire and suspension is set up neutral and set to oversteer at the limit (as everyone knows).
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      01-02-2020, 04:35 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsniper View Post
I put stock sized PS4's on my 1M this year and it now has tremendous grip - truly feels like 2x what the PS2s had. Not sure I would want much more grip as it would away from the balance/playfulness of the car at street speed.
With the stock sized ps4s fitted vs. The oem mps2 did you get any understeer with the new tire?

These new ps4s are not Bmw *star rated and I am concerned that the car may understeer similar to a set of pss non-star rated that I mounted to the car.

I want to maintain the car’s stock handling as best as possible.

If you or others can comment on the retention of the oem handling that would be great.

How is the sidewall stiffness?
I think the PS4s in stock size maintain the handling characteristics of the stock car (no understeer, etc.) but provide much more grip - especially for powering out of turns.

The tires seem to fit a bit "larger" than the PS2s so if anything, they give a little bit more dampening/comfort to the ride.
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      01-02-2020, 05:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
I have been very happy wit PS4S (255f/275r) on stock wheels for daily use. I haven't run autocross or track on them. They do not tramline on uneven roads nearly as badly as RE11, RE71R or Rival S.
Are you running stock suspension springs and dampers?

How are the handling characteristics, specifically any understeer?

The oem tire and suspension is set up neutral and set to oversteer at the limit (as everyone knows).
I am using Ohlins with camber plates, so not stock suspension. If you are on a stock suspension, the understeer will persist if you stay with a staggered set up. This was true for me with RE11s on stock wheels (255 in the front and 275 in the rear). While on those tires, I installed camber plates which made a world of difference and completely eliminated the understeer.

I'm currently using a square wheel and tire set for the track which is very neutral at the limit. To achieve this, I have -2.5° of camber in the front and-1.8° of camber in the rear. With my stock wheels on the car, which currently have the PS4S on them, there is still a tendency to understeer very slightly at the limit, which is much safer for every day use.
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      01-02-2020, 08:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsniper View Post
I think the PS4s in stock size maintain the handling characteristics of the stock car (no understeer, etc.) but provide much more grip - especially for powering out of turns.

The tires seem to fit a bit "larger" than the PS2s so if anything, they give a little bit more dampening/comfort to the ride.
See post #28 above... there are two separate opinions on the ps4s

I would rather not have to add camber plates... is there another tire people have been using to maintain the stock handling?
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      01-02-2020, 08:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
I am using Ohlins with camber plates, so not stock suspension. If you are on a stock suspension, the understeer will persist if you stay with a staggered set up. This was true for me with RE11s on stock wheels (255 in the front and 275 in the rear). While on those tires, I installed camber plates which made a world of difference and completely eliminated the understeer.

I'm currently using a square wheel and tire set for the track which is very neutral at the limit. To achieve this, I have -2.5 of camber in the front and-1.8 of camber in the rear. With my stock wheels on the car, which currently have the PS4S on them, there is still a tendency to understeer very slightly at the limit, which is much safer for every day use.
My stock car does not understeer as you have described with the staggered set up.

The rest of your most is however fairly clear. If I want to use the ps4s I have to dial in -2.5 camber to the front.

Is there another tire available on the market that will perform like stock?
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      01-02-2020, 08:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
I am using Ohlins with camber plates, so not stock suspension. If you are on a stock suspension, the understeer will persist if you stay with a staggered set up. This was true for me with RE11s on stock wheels (255 in the front and 275 in the rear). While on those tires, I installed camber plates which made a world of difference and completely eliminated the understeer.

I'm currently using a square wheel and tire set for the track which is very neutral at the limit. To achieve this, I have -2.5° of camber in the front and-1.8° of camber in the rear. With my stock wheels on the car, which currently have the PS4S on them, there is still a tendency to understeer very slightly at the limit, which is much safer for every day use.
My stock car does not understeer as you have described with the staggered set up.

The rest of your most is however fairly clear. If I want to use the ps4s I have to dial in -2.5 camber to the front.

Is there another tire available on the market that will perform like stock?
With all due respect, you have not found the limit of the cars capability if you have not found understeer on a stock suspension with staggered set up. Changing tires will not change the fact of the car is set up to understeer from the factory, mainly a product of having way too little camber in the front. Changing from one brand of tire to another is not going to drastically change the balance of grip between the front and the rear. Going to a square set up will eliminate some understeer, and changing alignment settings will certainly help, but if you ever autocross the car or go to a track where you truly are driving at the limit of grip, the understeer on this car is very frustrating.
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      01-02-2020, 08:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
With all due respect, you have not found the limit of the cars capability if you have not found understeer on a stock suspension with staggered set up. Changing tires will not change the fact of the car is set up to understeer from the factory, mainly a product of having way too little camber in the front. Changing from one brand of tire to another is not going to drastically change the balance of grip between the front and the rear. Going to a square set up will eliminate some understeer, and changing alignment settings will certainly help, but if you ever autocross the car or go to a track where you truly are driving at the limit of grip, the understeer on this car is very frustrating.
I am not being argumentative ...based on my experience on the street and on track

This car will understeer if the driver sharply turns (ie. panic turn in or is not smooth with the steering) or if the surface is truly loose or if the tire pressures are out.

I found that if you are smooth and direct there is otherwise no understeer.

If you are regularly understeer this car then you:
1) are over driving past the limit of the front tires (ie. you need r-compound)
2) are not smooth
3) are on loose surfaces
4) your race track is really really tight but even then I am not certain it will understeer

My track experience is Mosport, Mosport dtc and Calabogie

That said, I still do respect your comments regarding the front camber.
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      01-02-2020, 09:14 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnsniper View Post
I think the PS4s in stock size maintain the handling characteristics of the stock car (no understeer, etc.) but provide much more grip - especially for powering out of turns.

The tires seem to fit a bit "larger" than the PS2s so if anything, they give a little bit more dampening/comfort to the ride.
See post #28 above... there are two separate opinions on the ps4s'

I would rather not have to add camber plates... is there another tire people have been using to maintain the stock handling?
The most important part of maintaining the stock handling (with no suspension or geometry change) is keeping the same tire and wheel sizes. The stickier tire compounds of the PS4 (and others) just increase the limit to where you begin to feel/deal with either understeer or oversteer.

Having tracked my car as well as several other M and BMW cars (although I am not a track junkie like many here), I find the 1M to be neutral and you can quite easily provoke either over or understeer based on the balance in the car - this is what makes is so fun even at street speeds. On the track this can make it be hard to be smooth. For example, turn 1 at VIR is a constant understeer to oversteer and back to understeer then oversteer battle in the 1M. The longer wheel base of say an M4 makes this corner much smoother and faster.
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      01-03-2020, 12:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
I am using Ohlins with camber plates, so not stock suspension. If you are on a stock suspension, the understeer will persist if you stay with a staggered set up. This was true for me with RE11s on stock wheels (255 in the front and 275 in the rear). While on those tires, I installed camber plates which made a world of difference and completely eliminated the understeer.

I'm currently using a square wheel and tire set for the track which is very neutral at the limit. To achieve this, I have -2.5 of camber in the front and-1.8 of camber in the rear. With my stock wheels on the car, which currently have the PS4S on them, there is still a tendency to understeer very slightly at the limit, which is much safer for every day use.
My stock car does not understeer as you have described with the staggered set up.

The rest of your most is however fairly clear. If I want to use the ps4s I have to dial in -2.5 camber to the front.

Is there another tire available on the market that will perform like stock?
With all due respect, you have not found the limit of the cars capability if you have not found understeer on a stock suspension with staggered set up. Changing tires will not change the fact of the car is set up to understeer from the factory, mainly a product of having way too little camber in the front. Changing from one brand of tire to another is not going to drastically change the balance of grip between the front and the rear. Going to a square set up will eliminate some understeer, and changing alignment settings will certainly help, but if you ever autocross the car or go to a track where you truly are driving at the limit of grip, the understeer on this car is very frustrating.
I have not done track in the 1M just autocross . It did understeer for me if overdriven with stock setup. I did it with both super sports and Michelin Sports Cups 1. If I dove into corner too hot and cranked the wheel it would understeer a bit then when I applied power it would oversteer if I was not gradual with the application. After a day of auto crossing I let a friend that is an instructor and class champion drive it and he finished the course faster than me and and had less understeer and oversteer than me. I was impressed since he had never driven the 1M. Slowed down for the corners during fun runs and the understeer became less pronounced . So it does have understeer at the limit and past it but I can see how for some drivers it's not as noticeable. My friend didn't find the understeer to be an issue. His comment was how much throttle discipline is required in the 1M and we both said it almost took us back to our front wheel drive days where you had to very careful with throttle application when auto crossing. Finally I see a lot of trackers go with a bigger front sway bar only and from my experience this can increase understeer. So anyway my point is that the severity of understeer is dependent on driving style. So I hope that helps bridge the divide in opinions here. Best wishes and thank you for your inputs. I really want to try 4S with 255 and 275.

Last edited by nachob; 01-05-2020 at 08:46 PM..
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      01-03-2020, 01:57 PM   #35
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This is an interesting discussion. The inherent understeer dialed into the chassis of all modern BMWs is a well-established fact. It was one of the reasons why Randy Post did not like the 1M. There are numerous threads on this board dedicated to the work the people of done to dial out the understeer, which generally requires going to a square set up or changing parts to allow more aggressive camber in the front. Without doing at least one of those two things, there is very little that that can be done to change the balance of the car.

I agree that there are different styles of driving. There are also tricks that can be used to eliminate understeer such as trail breaking on corner entry, and using throttle to induce power oversteer midcorner and on corner exit, but that usually is not as fast as having a car that has balanced handling at the limit midcorner.

Some of the comments above illustrate the tricks that people are trying to use to get the car to rotate through a corner, but a short wheelbase tail happy car is never going to be a fast around the corner when you're trying to induce rotation by removing traction from the rear wheels through wheel spin. My set up has prompt turn in, four wheel slide through the middle half of every turn through the Apex, and a full throttle push to the track out on most corners, unless there are unusual elements present which you would always have to adjust for.
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      01-05-2020, 11:55 AM   #36
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What tire pressures is everyone running on the ps4 tire?

I ran the ps2 at both 33f/34R and 38f/ 39 R with excellent results.

Looks like the consensus on this thread is that the ps4s are an acceptable replacement for the ps2 tires and enhance the drive without inducing other issues.

As an aside I had a set of pss (no star rated tires) on the car for a season and the understeer was horrendous because the side wall stiffness of the non-star rated tire was soooo soft compared to a star rated version of the same tire.

Speaking of sidewalls... the ps2 tire side walls are really stiff. Are the ps4s the same stiffness when performing the finger poke test ????
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      01-10-2020, 06:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
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What tire pressures is everyone running on the ps4 tire?

I ran the ps2 at both 33f/34R and 38f/ 39 R with excellent results.

Looks like the consensus on this thread is that the ps4s are an acceptable replacement for the ps2 tires and enhance the drive without inducing other issues.

As an aside I had a set of pss (no star rated tires) on the car for a season and the understeer was horrendous because the side wall stiffness of the non-star rated tire was soooo soft compared to a star rated version of the same tire.

Speaking of sidewalls... the ps2 tire side walls are really stiff. Are the ps4s the same stiffness when performing the finger poke test ????
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      01-24-2020, 06:42 PM   #38
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It is time for new tires, I am thinking with my OEM 19' rims no mod:

Michelin Pilot Sport 4S

front 255/35ZR19
rear 275/35ZR19

If anyone have this combo, please describe your experience with these tires on the 1M. Thanks.
Anyone else running these tires with a positive experience compared to the stock ps2s ?
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      01-29-2020, 05:54 PM   #39
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I went through several other tires on my stock wheels before the PS4s, so direct comparison to the PS2 is difficult.

I used RE11 in 255/275 stagger on the stock wheels. They had much most grip, but felt dead in the center compared to PS2, and got LOUD as they wore.

I have used 2 sets of RE71r on the stock wheels, but with significantly altered alignment (-2.7 camber in front) and they are loud.

Now that I have dedicated track wheels, I put the PS4s on the OEM wheels and can say that are much better for daily driving. Response is crisp, but they are more comfortable and quiet. Grip is excellent.
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      02-02-2020, 01:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
I have not done track in the 1M just autocross . It did understeer for me if overdriven with stock setup. I did it with both super sports and Michelin Sports Cups 1. If I dove into corner too hot and cranked the wheel it would understeer a bit then when I applied power it would oversteer if I was not gradual with the application. After a day of auto crossing I let a friend that is an instructor and class champion drive it and he finished the course faster than me and and had less understeer and oversteer than me. I was impressed since he had never driven the 1M. Slowed down for the corners during fun runs and the understeer became less pronounced . So it does have understeer at the limit and past it but I can see how for some drivers it's not as noticeable. My friend didn't find the understeer to be an issue. His comment was how much throttle discipline is required in the 1M and we both said it almost took us back to our front wheel drive days where you had to very careful with throttle application when auto crossing. Finally I see a lot of trackers go with a bigger front sway bar only and from my experience this can increase understeer. So anyway my point is that the severity of understeer is dependent on driving style. So I hope that helps bridge the divide in opinions here. Best wishes and thank you for your inputs. I really want to try 4S with 255 and 275.
The throttle thing is something that very few companies, like Cadillac, seem to be getting right these days. It doesn’t make sense to make a throttle more aggressive when entering various sport modes. What Cadillac does is actually make the throttle smoother and more linear in the modes for the track, so the car has more touch and feel.

MHD tuning has a linear throttle option, which is a step in the right direction for the E82.
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      02-03-2020, 10:53 PM   #41
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I am enjoying this thread. Autox for me is, DSC off, M sport on, then plenty of throttle modulation.

I have run stock PSS 245/265 and now have RE71R 255/275. Even with revised fenders there is some rubbing on the front since they run wide and have square sidewalls.

I have -2.0 camber or -3.0 for lapping days.

I ran two autox and one shortened lapping day last year and saw plenty of wear on the outer edge of the PSS. They outer edge will not stand up long to tracking. The RE71R are very loud and like to track on ruts in the highway but the grip is immense. I ran them for years on my DC2R so I was prepared.
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