The value of having CPO

[Overpar56]

It's been awhile since I last posted and I still have the 135. I gotta say it's my favorite car I've owned, and still have it after putting 41k out of the 53k it now has on it. I bought this in 2013 as a CPO, which recently has saved a lot of cash out of pocket.

In June, during an oil change, the dealer tech noticed oil leaking from around the filter gasket. Without CPO, dealer said it's $900 or so because it's a PITA to change out a few O-rings and gaskets. 3 days in the shop waiting for parts and install. They gave me a 4 series to drive (not impressed) while the 1er was in the shop. I even got a free breakfast because I was waiting on the oil change and that's when they discovered the leak. Out of pocket was $50 for the deductible.

This week I had it in for the passenger window not always going up, and reverses back to fully open. They tried the reset procedure (which I had done prior to the service visit) and they confirmed the motor was faulty. They didn't tell me what it was going to cost but my out of pocket again is $50. While they were at it, they gave the car the once over and found the oil pan gasket is leaking. Parts ordered and its in for a few days waiting for parts. Late this afternoon they said the oil pan gasket was giving them fits removing it so I get to keep the 330ix loaner for the weekend. Again not impressed with the 3 series in steering feel. The 4 banger has plenty of torque, but sounds like my garbage disposal grinding up ice cubes.

Gaskets on the BMW must be subpar. Before I went out of warranty last year, both the side and bottom gaskets on the DCT had to be replaced. They had my car for about a week since I guess the parts came from Germany. My CPO expires in June 2018 and I'll reevaluate keeping it. My worries is with the DCT failing. No telling what that would cost. In the meantime I'm getting new rotors and pads put on next week, but not at the dealer. I'm going with Stoptech Sport slotted rotors with the anodized coating and Stoptech Sport pads. It came in several hundred cheaper than factory rotors/pads and should have compatible stopping power as the factory M Sport package.

[captain slowly]

If you like the car, just buy an extended warranty. As for the DCT, people have mentioned something along the lines of $10k replacement, so there's that. Seems people who have a manual aren't much better off, as they seem to fail as well...doesn't seem like a good idea to drive a 1 series without a warranty.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

If you like the car, just buy an extended warranty. As for the DCT, people have mentioned something along the lines of $10k replacement, so there's that. Seems people who have a manual aren't much better off, as they seem to fail as well...doesn't seem like a good idea to drive a 1 series without a warranty.

I would be beyond astonished if anything that would fail in the MT of a 1-Series car would cost even remotely close to $5K to repair or replace, no less $10K. I also think that failure of a clutch and other MT parts is going to be very highly related to mileage (60,000+) and moreso to driving style and potentially, transmission abuse.

[HyeWarrior]

Honestly though, unless your car is heavily modified, how likely is it for a DCT to just give out?

I've even seen supercharged e92's handling 500+ hp fairly easily

[NVHoo]

Originally Posted by champignon

I would be beyond astonished if anything that would fail in the MT of a 1-Series car would cost even remotely close to $5K to repair or replace, no less $10K. I also think that failure of a clutch and other MT parts is going to be very highly related to mileage (60,000+) and moreso to driving style and potentially, transmission abuse.

Any type of tranny failure under 100K miles is a manufacturer fail unless you don't know how to drive or beat the car.

[captain slowly]

Originally Posted by champignon

I would be beyond astonished if anything that would fail in the MT of a 1-Series car would cost even remotely close to $5K to repair or replace, no less $10K. I also think that failure of a clutch and other MT parts is going to be very highly related to mileage (60,000+) and moreso to driving style and potentially, transmission abuse.

seems bmw doesn't sell parts to fix the MT, and they basically want you to replace it....to the tune of $5k+ just for the trans. Then there's the clutch and dual mass flywheel. Just look around on this board and you'll see people with the second gear crunch. Seems quite popular.

[Gangplank]

There are some good aftermarket warranties if you decide to keep it long term. When I bought my 135 I got a Route66 warranty through my credit union. 5 years and 60k mi. They get good reviews.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

seems bmw doesn't sell parts to fix the MT, and they basically want you to replace it....to the tune of $5k+ just for the trans. Then there's the clutch and dual mass flywheel. Just look around on this board and you'll see people with the second gear crunch. Seems quite popular.

My 2003 Porsche 911 Turbo had its 6MT manual transmission removed and sent out for a rebuild, by the prior owner. Apparently, there is no current availability of these transmissions. It's a Porsche, the rebuilt transmission cost $1500, and push came to shove I'm relatively certain that the manual transmissions in our 1-Series cars could also be rebuilt for a relatively modest price.

[captain slowly]

Originally Posted by champignon

My 2003 Porsche 911 Turbo had its 6MT manual transmission removed and sent out for a rebuild, by the prior owner. Apparently, there is no current availability of these transmissions. It's a Porsche, the rebuilt transmission cost $1500, and push came to shove I'm relatively certain that the manual transmissions in our 1-Series cars could also be rebuilt for a relatively modest price.

anything is possible, as long as bmw is willing to sell you parts...which they aren't. Maybe getrag will, who knows, but so far all I see is transmission replacements and not rebuilds, so comparing it to a Porsche or a different manufacturer makes little sense. As it stands, its over $5k for a new one. By the time you add in a clutch and dual mass flywheel you're at over $7k before labor, and at that point you're in DCT territory. Moral of the story is buy a warranty, as bmw is unable/unwilling to pay for a durable gearbox from its suppliers, so the end customer will be dealing with that.

[bm996tt]

It wouldn't be cheap I'm sure but the parts could be sourced by a competent builder. I never beat my cars and have trans/clutches with over 100k miles, not to say that a problem couldn't arise regardless.

[dandandan]

After your CPO expires, SSP Performance will be your go to for new gaskets and DCT clutch packs. They have solved the problems associated with the Getrag made gearbox (GS7D36SG).

The tricky part is finding someone who knows how to replace these components correctly in your area.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

anything is possible, as long as bmw is willing to sell you parts...which they aren't. Maybe getrag will, who knows, but so far all I see is transmission replacements and not rebuilds, so comparing it to a Porsche or a different manufacturer makes little sense. As it stands, its over $5k for a new one. By the time you add in a clutch and dual mass flywheel you're at over $7k before labor, and at that point you're in DCT territory. Moral of the story is buy a warranty, as bmw is unable/unwilling to pay for a durable gearbox from its suppliers, so the end customer will be dealing with that.

The driver has limited control over the wear on an automatic transmission, of which the DCT is one. The driver has near total control over the wear on a MT. Of course, if one buys a used car with lots of miles on it, one that has been tracked or otherwise abused, all bets are off.

I have driven MT cars exclusively for several decades. The only one I ever had to do any transmission work on, at all, was my 2000 Z3M Coupe which I purchased used 2 years ago with 58,000 miles on it. There was a shift pin issue that is common on these E36 cars, and I decided to spend $1000 to have it fixed. The tech contacted me and said there would only be another 2 hours worth of additional labor to continue to the clutch to determine if a replacement was in order, which I agreed to, and the clutch was close to needing replacement., so I ended up paying $3000 for the total repair. I have only put about 2000 miles on the car total since I bought it, so it was not me or my driving.

That's it, in more than 4 decades of driving MT cars, never a real transmission problem related to my own driving.

If someone buys a used car with lots of miles on it, or keeps a car for 100,000 miles, all bets are off, but you can say that about any car. I would not be as complacent with a DCT car.

[Overpar56]

I'll probably buy an aftermarket warranty. Thanks all for the recommendations.

When I picked up the car this morning, I spoke with a woman who has a 2009 135 with 150K miles. It's just starting to burn oil. Other than that, she's had good luck with it. We both lusted after the M4 in Yas Marina Blue in the showroom. Nice, but $88K? Not that nice.

I'm trying to eek out another few months on the summer rubber. I really don't want to buy a new set of tires and then let them sit all winter. Wish me luck.

[captain slowly]

Originally Posted by champignon

The driver has limited control over the wear on an automatic transmission, of which the DCT is one. The driver has near total control over the wear on a MT. Of course, if one buys a used car with lots of miles on it, one that has been tracked or otherwise abused, all bets are off.

I have driven MT cars exclusively for several decades. The only one I ever had to do any transmission work on, at all, was my 2000 Z3M Coupe which I purchased used 2 years ago with 58,000 miles on it. There was a shift pin issue that is common on these E36 cars, and I decided to spend $1000 to have it fixed. The tech contacted me and said there would only be another 2 hours worth of additional labor to continue to the clutch to determine if a replacement was in order, which I agreed to, and the clutch was close to needing replacement., so I ended up paying $3000 for the total repair. I have only put about 2000 miles on the car total since I bought it, so it was not me or my driving.

That's it, in more than 4 decades of driving MT cars, never a real transmission problem related to my own driving.

If someone buys a used car with lots of miles on it, or keeps a car for 100,000 miles, all bets are off, but you can say that about any car. I would not be as complacent with a DCT car.

you ever hear the saying, past results do not guarantee the future outcome?

[malicem3]

I haven't had transmission issues with any of my BMWs (7). Neither have any of my friends or fellow CCA members.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by captain slowly

you ever hear the saying, past results do not guarantee the future outcome?

And your point is?

It sounds like you are trying to justify to the world, that you own an automatic transmission vehicle, and that it was a good choice. Either that or you think that extended warranties on cars make sense. The first might be your personal issue, and the latter is an economic impossibility.

Guess what; the companies that sell extended warranties have more data at their disposal, than the collective service records of every person posting on this forum. These companies exist to make a PROFIT, like most companies, especially insurance companies, do. Your DCT transmission failure might cost you $10,000 to fix, but you can bet your first (and second) born child that the extended warranty sellers know more than you do about the frequency and cost of this repair on a large number of cars insured with their policies.

I am not saying that a given person might not come out on top by having purchased such a warranty; some people win while playing the slots in Las Vegas, just not enough of them to dent the profits of the casinos. Like those who win in the game of chance with extended car (or appliance) warranties, it is the winners who post online their experiences with these things. The losers? Not so much.

I'm not a purist; I buy major appliance extended warranties for my primary residence which is located in a rural area with lots of incompetent service people who charge very high rates. I simply want that refrigerator to last for at least 5 years, and Costco will sell me the fridge and an extended warranty for it at a price I am willing to pay. Do I think it is likely that I will ever collect on the warranty? No, I do not. Do I want to buy another refrigerator in 2.5 years? NO, that's the point.

And what I'm stating here is not an economic argument (which is what it appears that you are trying to make) but a personal convenience argument. I think you can, in certain circumstances for certain people, make the convenience argument. The economic one? Not so much.

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by champignon

And your point is?

There is none.

You have a 996 which is known to have IMS bearing issues, front seal issues, etc. Yes it's a Porsche, not a BMW, and I am very confident there are not as many 996/pre '09 997s out there as vehicles with the same drivetrains as our E82 variants.

If the aftermarket can rebuild a Porsche transmission, develop a better moustrap/IMS bearing, and figure a way to improve on the leaky seals, I am pretty sure there will be/is a moustrap builder who can rebuild our transmissions for the same money they rebuilt your Porsche's transmission. Having driven mainly manuals since before BMW was a mass market car, I agree with everything you said.

My drivetrains usually stay stock. The suspension is a different story.

[Texoma1836]

I cannot stress enough the importance of an extended CPO warranty. I bought my 2012 DCT 135i 2 and a half years ago and it had ~33,000 miles on it. As it stands there is ~79,500 on it now. In my ownership I've had the following warranty work done on it;

- Windshield washer pump leaking; replaced (46,404 Miles)

- Worn Deflector pulley; replaced (49,986)

- Oil Filter Housing Seal leaking; replaced housing seals, filter o-ring, oil cooler o-ring, drive belt (corroded due to the leaking oil) (49,986)

- HPFP failure; replaced *Required Tow(50,200) This is a common one, but it left me on the side of the road in Nowhere, Texas waiting a half hour or so until it would start working again and I could limp home. Had to stop 7 times on a 3.5 hour drive to allow the HPFP to reset.

- Expansion Tank failure causing coolant leak; replaced (57,080) Shitty plastic part.

- Failure of Charge Pipe at Throttle Body; replaced *Required Tow (62,857) Shitty plastic part.

- Water pump failure; replaced *Required Tow (65,721) Damn near blew up my engine as the sensor also failed and allowed me to operate at dangerously high temps for wayyyyy longer than I should have. I had literally NO coolant left and they told me it was because it literally boiled away.

- Valve cover gasket leaking; replaced (69,971) This caused oil to drip onto my catalytic converter, causing there to be tons of smoke pouring out from the engine. Not a good look when the valet brings your car around to the front of a cocktail reception where everyone is outside looking at your car and wondering if it's on fire. Oh yeah, and you're trying to impress your date by pretending like you're a smooth guy.

- Break in battery cable to alternator; replaced (69,971)

I need new shocks, spark plugs, multiple fluid flushes, etc at 100,000 when my warranty is up. Even now BMW won't replace any of those parts, so for someone with shallow pockets like me, I might be making a "for sale" post on here soon. When it works, it works great and I love it! When it's broken, it's very broken and I'm stuck driving to work on a dirtbike while wearing a suit (Under 25, so BMW won't loan)

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Texoma1836

I cannot stress enough the importance of an extended CPO warranty. I bought my 2012 DCT 135i 2 and a half years ago and it had ~33,000 miles on it. As it stands there is ~79,500 on it now. In my ownership I've had the following warranty work done on it;

- Windshield washer pump leaking; replaced (46,404 Miles)

- Worn Deflector pulley; replaced (49,986)

- Oil Filter Housing Seal leaking; replaced housing seals, filter o-ring, oil cooler o-ring, drive belt (corroded due to the leaking oil) (49,986)

- HPFP failure; replaced *Required Tow(50,200) This is a common one, but it left me on the side of the road in Nowhere, Texas waiting a half hour or so until it would start working again and I could limp home. Had to stop 7 times on a 3.5 hour drive to allow the HPFP to reset.

- Expansion Tank failure causing coolant leak; replaced (57,080) Shitty plastic part.

- Failure of Charge Pipe at Throttle Body; replaced *Required Tow (62,857) Shitty plastic part.

- Water pump failure; replaced *Required Tow (65,721) Damn near blew up my engine as the sensor also failed and allowed me to operate at dangerously high temps for wayyyyy longer than I should have. I had literally NO coolant left and they told me it was because it literally boiled away.

- Valve cover gasket leaking; replaced (69,971) This caused oil to drip onto my catalytic converter, causing there to be tons of smoke pouring out from the engine. Not a good look when the valet brings your car around to the front of a cocktail reception where everyone is outside looking at your car and wondering if it's on fire. Oh yeah, and you're trying to impress your date by pretending like you're a smooth guy.

- Break in battery cable to alternator; replaced (69,971)

I need new shocks, spark plugs, multiple fluid flushes, etc at 100,000 when my warranty is up. Even now BMW won't replace any of those parts, so for someone with shallow pockets like me, I might be making a "for sale" post on here soon. When it works, it works great and I love it! When it's broken, it's very broken and I'm stuck driving to work on a dirtbike while wearing a suit (Under 25, so BMW won't loan)

BMWs are not cheap cars to own, we all know that. Your car had 33,000 miles and years on it when you bought it. Who can know how it was treated during that initial period? And certainly it might have been a lemon.

Any individual case is but a single data point. People who have had bad luck with their cars tend to post their service histories online. People who have had good luck do not tend to post that they have had no issues with their car. Trying to extrapolate from the experience of one person with bad luck or another with good luck, onto the entire car-owning population is a fool's errand.

Since we all know that BMWs off warranty have the potential to cost a lot to maintain, the issue becomes:

Am I a good, mediocre, or bad candidate to own this car?

A good candidate can simply just afford to buy the car and to maintain it, no matter what it costs;

A mediocre candidate can afford to buy the car but may or may not be able to afford to maintain it, depending upon what happens to the car during the period of ownership;

A bad candidate can't afford to buy the car, e.g. has to finance it, and in addition has no financial reserves to pay to maintain it, as circumstances may dictate.

The good candidate can do whatever he wants, after all, it's only money.

The mediocre candidate might be the best market for an aftermarket warranty, because he can afford to spend a certain amount to maintain the car, but beyond that it is a huge stretch. Even if the amount of money he will need to spend on an extended warranty is more than it is objectively worth, still simply knowing that he has protection from a bad mechanical issue is worth a certain cost to protect against.

The bad candidate simply should not buy the car, period.

[Texoma1836]

Originally Posted by champignon

BMWs are not cheap cars to own, we all know that. Your car had 33,000 miles and years on it when you bought it. Who can know how it was treated during that initial period? And certainly it might have been a lemon.

Any individual case is but a single data point. People who have had bad luck with their cars tend to post their service histories online. People who have had good luck do not tend to post that they have had no issues with their car. Trying to extrapolate from the experience of one person with bad luck or another with good luck, onto the entire car-owning population is a fool's errand.

Since we all know that BMWs off warranty have the potential to cost a lot to maintain, the issue becomes:

Am I a good, mediocre, or bad candidate to own this car?

A good candidate can simply just afford to buy the car and to maintain it, no matter what it costs;

A mediocre candidate can afford to buy the car but may or may not be able to afford to maintain it, depending upon what happens to the car during the period of ownership;

A bad candidate can't afford to buy the car, e.g. has to finance it, and in addition has no financial reserves to pay to maintain it, as circumstances may dictate.

The good candidate can do whatever he wants, after all, it's only money.

The mediocre candidate might be the best market for an aftermarket warranty, because he can afford to spend a certain amount to maintain the car, but beyond that it is a huge stretch. Even if the amount of money he will need to spend on an extended warranty is more than it is objectively worth, still simply knowing that he has protection from a bad mechanical issue is worth a certain cost to protect against.

The bad candidate simply should not buy the car, period.

Whew buddy, I was just trying to justify the merits of having an extended CPO warranty.

Now that we've established that I'm a "mediocre" BMW owner, I want to make sure that other "mediocre" BMW owners are also aware that there are cases where there will be a substantial amount of reliability for a good while, and other cases where there will definitely be problems. Personally, it has had more problems than I was expecting. This is why other "mediocre" BMW owners should make sure to warranty up with their new or CPO cars unless they want to drain their "mediocre" bank accounts.

By the way, the car was previously owned by the Dealership owner who had all maintainance done on the vehicle and no repair history. Carfax and BMW service record confirmed.

[Overpar56]

Lots of comments on my thread as the OP. When it comes to extended warranties for appliances and pretty much anything under $1000, I decline them. It's silly that I was offered an extended warranty for a toaster that cost $26 and the extra two years was about $16 for the warranty. I think I can make a toaster last more than a couple years.

When it comes to a BMW, or any car that has a known history of failed parts (fuel pump, gaskets, charge pipe), and you can't or don't have the time to repair the car yourself, a good third-party warranty makes sense because you can budget it into your monthly expenditures. I'm retired so if I add the cost in, then either I collect on the warranty at some point, or it's like car insurance. You don't plan for an accident (you probably are required in most states to have at least liability insurance, but not collision), but it may cover at least some of the repair/replacement costs.

One poster had it correct. The extended warranty insurance companies have many more data points than just a few. But like insurance, it's spread over a large number of vehicles with different manufacturers, models, age and mileage. If they just offered coverage for BMWs, either you couldn't afford it or they'd go broke covering them.

I love this little beast of a car and I really can't see spending $70K-80K plus for a new M3 or $55K or more for an M2 I'd have to wait until the end of time to get one.

[champignon]

My comment about "good," "mediocre," and "bad" candidates for ownership of these cars was intended to be taken in the context of a used E82/E88 vehicle. As we all know, these cars (with the exception of the 1M and maybe possibly the 135is) have depreciated faster than a boulder rolling down Mont Blanc :-) People are buying some these cars used now for as little as $10,000, if posts on this board can be believed. Any one of these cars could potentially run up a repair bill that is higher than the Blue Book value of the car.

So yes, someone who struggles to buy a car like this and has nothing left to pay for repairs is a really bad potential owner, and someone who can afford to buy it but has limited resources for maintenance and repair is not such a great potential owner, either. Obviously, if one has the skills to work on the car one's self, that changes the calculation, somewhat.

The same mediocre to poor used E82/E88 potential owner could go out and buy an econobox with a warranty, afford their monthly payments (hopefully) and not have to worry about having a 3000 lb+ boat anchor in their driveway.

People have an intrinsic right to make dumb purchasing decisions when their resources are taken into consideration. I personally don't advise it :-)