M1 engine speculation

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Primo135

I missed this, where'd you find the information or was it surmised?

I REALLY hope you're wrong.

You can hope all you like, but there's no way the M1 is going to add larger wheels, tires, and brakes and loose much more than 100lbs in other places. If this car comes in an ounce under 3300lbs, you can color me shocked.

[PrimoM3]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

You can hope all you like, but there's no way the M1 is going to add larger wheels, tires, and brakes and loose much more than 100lbs in other places. If this car comes in an ounce under 3300lbs, you can color me shocked.

Oh, can I? I think you're making a few assumptions here, Jeremy. First, the wheels will likely be a bit wider, but not larger in diameter. This doesn't mean they have to be heavier. Also, you (we) don't know yet how much of the other parts are going to be composite/ lightweight materials like the fenders are said to be. "Thermoplastic" is what Scott referred to it as. I'll agree we're not going to see a sub 3,000 lb car here, but you think they're not going to be able to shave even 100 lbs based on your statement above.

What can I say, I betcha.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Primo135

What can I say, I betcha.

I'll take that bet. There's no way this car is going to be under 3300lbs, at least not if it's going to come in under a $55k base. Feel free to rub my nose in it if it is. Advanced materials cost lots of money, and the MSRP requirements here just won't support extensive (meaningful) use of structural composites.

I'll actually be surprised if it doesn't ADD weight when compared to the 135i, just like the M3 does when compared to the 335i. The driveline changes are going to add weight, as are the brakes, and very likely the wheels and tires will. It will take a pretty substantial weight savings program just to break even.

[PrimoM3]

Well, let's cross our fingers and toes...

[DCC]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

According to SCOTT26, who always seems to be right, this ///M1 is the grand finale of the E82 platform, which will make use of a I6, one that is turbocharged. Not the N54 either....

Future models of the 1 series are rumored to be getting 4 cylinder engines, one of which could be for the next ///M1, in the form of a TT 4 cylinder engine pushing out over 300 BHP....

And just when will the E82 model year end?
MY 2012?

[BMW269]

The latest rumor is that the M1 is going to get a HR NA I6. According to Scott, the M1 is going to get a BMW M tuned N55 engine, with between 340 and 360 HP. Isn't it little increase, if you compare the BMW N63 (4.4l V8 TT 407 HP) and the BMW S63 (4.4l V8 TT 555 HP)? The Z4 sDrive35is has a N54 engine with 340 HP and 450 Nm.

Who now thinks the base engine of the M1 is the Single-Turbo N55, but BMW M, instead of adding a second Turbo, is on the contrary taking away the Turbo to make it a HR NA engine?

Somehow it makes no sense to use a FI engine to make a NA engine, ubut who knows what is BMW M cooking?

[x838nwy]

Originally Posted by Levi

The latest rumor is that the M1 is going to get a HR NA I6. According to Scott, the M1 is going to get a BMW M tuned N55 engine, with between 340 and 360 HP. Isn't it little increase, if you compare the BMW N63 (4.4l V8 TT 407 HP) and the BMW S63 (4.4l V8 TT 555 HP)? The Z4 sDrive35is has a N54 engine with 340 HP and 450 Nm.

Who now thinks the base engine of the M1 is the Single-Turbo N55, but BMW M, instead of adding a second Turbo, is on the contrary taking away the Turbo to make it a HR NA engine?

Somehow it makes no sense to use a FI engine to make a NA engine, ubut who knows what is BMW M cooking?

IM very, very HO I would really check on the source of that rumour. The 135i has a 3.0L making 306hp and 400Nm of torque. I doubt they'd remove the (twin) turbos and get more power or produce an M1 with lower numbers that the 135i. That'd be like making an M3 with less power than the 335i.

I have a few reasons for thinking that the M1 will use the N55:

a.) The X5M and X6M have shown us that BMW are not afraid to put FI into M cars and many expect the M5 (and if there will be, and M6) will also use the FI engine from their X counterparts. So, there seems no need to develop a HR NA variant of an engine they already have.

b.) There's been several articles of interview with people of influence that M cars are looking at becoming more accessible - perhaps cheaper. Assuming it fits, they already have the N45/55 so trying to develop something new just for the M1 would be a waste of money and quite the opposite to what they allegedly want.

c.) I would bet that the next M3 has a FI engine - perhaps one bespoke to the model. So, more reason they should not spend money on the M1's engine.

d.) Between the N45 and N55, it seems clear that the choice (by BMW) is the N55.

Well, just my thoughts....

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Levi

The latest rumor is that the M1 is going to get a HR NA I6. According to Scott, the M1 is going to get a BMW M tuned N55 engine, with between 340 and 360 HP. Isn't it little increase, if you compare the BMW N63 (4.4l V8 TT 407 HP) and the BMW S63 (4.4l V8 TT 555 HP)? The Z4 sDrive35is has a N54 engine with 340 HP and 450 Nm.

Who now thinks the base engine of the M1 is the Single-Turbo N55, but BMW M, instead of adding a second Turbo, is on the contrary taking away the Turbo to make it a HR NA engine?

Somehow it makes no sense to use a FI engine to make a NA engine, ubut who knows what is BMW M cooking?

There's no way in hell they're going to have a NA engine making that kind of power with this displacement. They'd have to bump it to 3.5-3.7L to get that power out of a NA engine, and it's hard to imagine that's possible with this block.

[stovesax08]

^^Even if the M1 does end up having a 340 hp NA engine and breaks even on weight (which IMHO it wont do either), won't the car be a reincarnation of the e46 M3?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by stovesax08

^^Even if the M1 does end up having a 340 hp NA engine and breaks even on weight (which IMHO it wont do either), won't the car be a reincarnation of the e46 M3?

Even if that's the case I still prefer the E46 design over E82.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by stovesax08

^^Even if the M1 does end up having a 340 hp NA engine and breaks even on weight (which IMHO it wont do either), won't the car be a reincarnation of the e46 M3?

Yeah, but the problem with that is the competition has advanced way beyond that performance level at this point. Personally I think this car needs to have at least 360-370Hp to really justify the price tag, and that's assuming they actually hit the 3300lb mark, which I'm very sceptical of. I'll be very surprised if the car doesn't actually gain weight over a standard 135i.

[sparoz]

I think Scott has always said the engine output has to be lower than the M3. He never says it is going to be slower. That's my interpretation anyway. I did some calculation a while ago - and the M1 needs to have approximately 375hp to be in equivalent power to weight ratio as the M3.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by sparoz

I think Scott has always said the engine output has to be lower than the M3. He never says it is going to be slower. That's my interpretation anyway. I did some calculation a while ago - and the M1 needs to have approximately 375hp to be in equivalent power to weight ratio as the M3.

I also did this yesterday and my numbers are quite different.
(DIN is: car + 90 % tank)
(EU is: DIN + 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)

M3 (E92) 6MT, 420 PS, 1580 kg (DIN): 3,762 PS/kg
M1 (E82) 6MT, 380 PS, 1430 kg (DIN): 3,763 PS/kg

M1: 1430 kg + 68 kg + 7 kg = 1505 kg (EU), 135i (E82) 6MT weighs 1530 kg (EU).

So I think the M1 will get closer to 380 PS than 360 PS. All the work BMW M does for the N55, to make it a S55 is not worth if only to gain 50 PS.

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by Levi

I also did this yesterday and my numbers are quite different.
(DIN is: car + 90 % tank)
(EU is: DIN + 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)

M3 (E92) 6MT, 420 PS, 1580 kg (DIN): 3,762 PS/kg
M1 (E82) 6MT, 380 PS, 1430 kg (DIN): 3,763 PS/kg

M1: 1430 kg + 68 kg + 7 kg = 1505 kg (EU), 135i (E82) 6MT weighs 1530 kg (EU).

So I think the M1 will get closer to 380 PS than 360 PS. All the work BMW M does for the N55, to make it a S55 is not worth if only to gain 50 PS.

I thought I used bhp, so that would probably be accounted for the difference.

You'll be right though I would say this would be the minimum especially M3 is going to get a boost. The other thing is that I would say the weight would be roughly the same as you have got an additional LSD - but with a better distribution with a possibly a slightly lighter engine and the carbon roof bits.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Levi

I also did this yesterday and my numbers are quite different.
(DIN is: car + 90 % tank)
(EU is: DIN + 68 kg driver + 7 kg luggage)

M3 (E92) 6MT, 420 PS, 1580 kg (DIN): 3,762 PS/kg
M1 (E82) 6MT, 380 PS, 1430 kg (DIN): 3,763 PS/kg

M1: 1430 kg + 68 kg + 7 kg = 1505 kg (EU), 135i (E82) 6MT weighs 1530 kg (EU).

So I think the M1 will get closer to 380 PS than 360 PS. All the work BMW M does for the N55, to make it a S55 is not worth if only to gain 50 PS.

To give the M1 the same power to weight as the M3 will not happen in my opinion, that is why the limit will probably be 360hp. Think about it, the same PTW and even more torque will make an M1 not only superior in the corners due to it's less weight to haul about but also quicker at all-out acceleration, the very fact it has more torque will give it more performance in-gear.

What reason would there be other than needing the extra space for buying the more expensive and ultimately slower M3?

[Advevo]

The M1 is smaller car and is more suitable for trackdriving and fun in cornering so a NA high rev ///M engine should go into this car period.

X5///M and M3 and M5 and M6 could all be using turbo s no problem because these cars are luxery with a touch of motorsport. This street cars are to heavy for trackdays and are not agile enough. So turbo is more than ok for these cars.

But the M1 could be a nice base for building a amateur/semi prof. race car. The E46 M3 and E36 M3 engine is still the most used for building race cars at bmw semi prof. race teams. So it would be great if bmw brought us new 6 cil high rev engine so the trackdrivers semi raceteams have an engine again which can be used again.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by footie

What reason would there be other than needing the extra space for buying the more expensive and ultimately slower M3?

Looks and Pedigree.

[footie]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Looks and Pedigree.

Fair point.

But will this still be the case if the M1 beats it in every single discipline.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by footie

Fair point.

But will this still be the case if the M1 beats it in every single discipline.

It would be more than this tho. The m3 would still have a market due it's higher quality, larger size, and cushier ride. What was said above is like asking why do people buy an m5 when it is outclassed performance wise by an e90 m3

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by footie

Fair point.

But will this still be the case if the M1 beats it in every single discipline.

I think it will still be the case. Why? Because majority of the folks buying the M1 wont be racing/tracking against M3's. In their mind the M3 will be better and vice versa. Plus, the performance difference wont be huge. Take for example the 335i vs E46 M3 debate. The 335i beats it in every measurable way but its still no M3. I know I was comparing an M car to a non-M but I think you get my point.

[footie]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

It would be more than this tho. The m3 would still have a market due it's higher quality, larger size, and cushier ride. What was said above is like asking why do people buy an m5 when it is outclassed performance wise by an e90 m3

Yes, every way except in acceleration where the M5 comfortably hammers the M3. Unless I am misunderstanding what Levi is suggesting by giving the M1 to same power to weight this to me is going against what Scott was suggesting that the M1 wouldn't step on it's toes.

My opinion was that the M1 would be similar compared to the M3 in the same way as the M3 is to the M5, i.e. out perform it in every way except in acceleration. May be I have it wrong.

Originally Posted by BForbes

I think it will still be the case. Why? Because majority of the folks buying the M1 wont be racing/tracking against M3's. In their mind the M3 will be better and vice versa. Plus, the performance difference wont be huge. Take for example the 335i vs E46 M3 debate. The 335i beats it in every measurable way but its still no M3. I know I was comparing an M car to a non-M but I think you get my point.

As you yourself highlighted, this is an example of non-M versus M which wouldn't be the case here. In fact even comparing 135i to 335i isn't the same because the guy who buys an M is into their performance much more than either creature comforts or practicality, well up to a point but as the M1 will offer pretty much everything that the M3 does in both cases it's hard to not see some M3 customers downgrading to the smaller car simply because it will offer a more involving experience. Again may be I have it wrong.

[BrokenVert]

Footie. I see what your problem is...you still think that the entuaiasts are the people buying the majority of M cars. You're wrong. It's the badge whores. The same badge whores that will buy a stripped 335i as opposed to a loaded 135i because to them the higher number means better