[0700700]

I was wondering if anyone would like to share their thoughts with us about the new 3.0litre bi-turbo engine. Having seen some of the specs, i must say that BMW has really done an astonishing accomplishment on paper at least.

I was wondering if anyone has any specific information about torque and the powerband of the engine. I know that BMW does not typically release any concise torque curves for the engines, but maybe someone (GregA?) has more information.

My questions are the following:

1) 400nm are available from 1400rpm all the way to 5000rpm, how is this possible? having been quite interested in forced induction, i think that only a radial compressor (as the 5.5litre Amg K motor) can produce full torque at such a low RPM. The other possible configuration (Supra) would be a little turbo and for lor range , and a large garett blower for the high range??

Yet BMW uses a conventional bi-turbo design, and the power delivery seems astonishing

2) the following picture , which i presume is from the 335i coupe (because of the paddle shifters)





shows that the engine red-lines at 7000+rpm... cosidering that the naturally aspirated engine is capable of reving to about 6500rpm , how is it possible that the bi-turbo engine can operate at such a high RPM? a bi-turbo capable of operating at such high engine speeds, would surely require very expensive parts to keep frictional forces to a minumum, and that would add cost ??? besides is there any point to it revving to 7000+RPM, when the power band bmw states is 400nm until 5000rpm? does anyone know what the power figures are after 5000rpm, is the torque curve still linear (as in a constant output), does it fall and by how much ??


Thanks , and now three things that i dont get.
1) with the paddle shifters, does the 335i have a hard start similar to the 545i and 550i where you floor the throttle and the car waits for the revs to build for an optimum start
2) what is the difference in appearance between the e92 with and without sports package? all the pics ive seen from bmw look the same.
3) comparing




and




why is the mesh in the front spoiler so different ? i mean both cars are 335i and both seem to have the sports package on (the spoilers look the same to me)... is this an extra?

thanks all

[0700700]

oh and why dont we have a nice fat m-steering wheel ?

[bos]

That picture is an interior mock-up. Trying to read into details is pointless. Notice that it has an i-drive controller knob but no i-drive/nav!

[0700700]

Originally Posted by bos

That picture is an interior mock-up. Trying to read into details is pointless. Notice that it has an i-drive controller knob but no i-drive/nav!

i know. How about this one then
http://www.e90post.com/forums/upload.../P0024423a.jpg

the reason why i specifically put that picture , is because it has the paddle shifters , which is a 335i only option. + i saw the e92 coupe video. The rev counter is to 8000rpm, and the redline is at 7000rpm

Can someone at least answer the other questions especially

2) what is the difference in appearance between the e92 with and without sports package? all the pics ive seen from bmw look the same.

3) why is the mesh in the front spoiler so different ? i mean both cars are 335i and both seem to have the sports package on (the spoilers look the same to me)... is this an extra?

thanks again

[MMira]

Originally Posted by 0700700

1) 400nm are available from 1400rpm all the way to 5000rpm, how is this possible? having been quite interested in forced induction, i think that only a radial compressor (as the 5.5litre Amg K motor) can produce full torque at such a low RPM. The other possible configuration (Supra) would be a little turbo and for lor range , and a large garett blower for the high range??

Yet BMW uses a conventional bi-turbo design, and the power delivery seems astonishing

These parameters are attained thank to the combination of three things. First small turbos each feeding 3 cylinders, which can be reved quickly and work at low rpm. On the other hand the higher rpms the lower use of turbos. That's why you can rev the engine so high. It can be described as so-called soft turbo engine. The second thing is what we know very well and it's double-Vanos. Again improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve and widens the powerband. And last but not least is direct injection of the fuel.

[0700700]

Originally Posted by MMira

These parameters are attained thank to the combination of three things. First small turbos each feeding 3 cylinders, which can be reved quickly and work at low rpm. On the other hand the higher rpms the lower use of turbos. That's why you can rev the engine so high. It can be described as so-called soft turbo engine. The second thing is what we know very well and it's double-Vanos. Again improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve and widens the powerband. And last but not least is direct injection of the fuel.

wow, thats a great response and clears things up regarding the engine. Any speculations as to what the torque curve would be after 5000rpm?

now for the other questions that are left

[Artz 330]

smaller turbo for lower and larger for higher??

[David328M-Sport]

Certainly the Bi-Turbo engine looks fantastic and the specs speak of almost M Power delivery. This is the next step by BMW in its (especially the I6) engine development phase to increase power and torque without having to always increase displacement.

Lets hope that BMW will offer the bi turbos in more I6 engine variations in due course.

Interesting to see if the NA I6 will be phased out in favour of the BT I6 in the years to come.

[MMira]

I thing the torque curve will be very close to the one of the current 3.0i engine. As said the turbos serve only for low and mid rpms and will likely have no big (if any) influence at high rpms.

Artz: no, the answer isn't that easy. You have to consider the size of the turbo, the charging pressure, the compression ratio of the engine etc. But in this case the small turbos are used for fast reaction and low charging pressure. I think I've seen somewhere the N54 engine has almost the same compression ratio as N52.

BTW, I was told by an insider even sofisticated turbo engine is to come as well as naturally aspirated one.

[shragon]

Originally Posted by bos

That picture is an interior mock-up. Trying to read into details is pointless. Notice that it has an i-drive controller knob but no i-drive/nav!

good eye!

[visor]

Originally Posted by MMira

BTW, I was told by an insider even sofisticated turbo engine is to come as well as naturally aspirated one.

Variable angle of the turbo vanes?!

Much like the Porsche turbo with VTG (variable turbine geometry) on the new 911 turbo.
http://www.motiontrends.com/2006/m03...tg_turbo.shtml

[MMira]

Originally Posted by visor

Variable angle of the turbo vanes?!

Much like the Porsche turbo with VTG (variable turbine geometry) on the new 911 turbo.
http://www.motiontrends.com/2006/m03...tg_turbo.shtml

Unfortunetely I don't know more, sorry. Might be this.

[victri]

[QUOTE=0700700]3) why is the mesh in the front spoiler so different ? i mean both cars are 335i and both seem to have the sports package on (the spoilers look the same to me)... is this an extra?
[QUOTE]

It looks like the same mesh to me, only difference is that one is black while the other is silver.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by 0700700

oh and why dont we have a nice fat m-steering wheel ?

Because only M Sport and M3 get the M steering wheels.

There should be a M sport E92 package in europe later.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by 0700700

I was wondering if anyone has any specific information about torque and the powerband of the engine. I know that BMW does not typically release any concise torque curves for the engines, but maybe someone (GregA?) has more information.

My questions are the following:

1) 400nm are available from 1400rpm all the way to 5000rpm, how is this possible? having been quite interested in forced induction, i think that only a radial compressor (as the 5.5litre Amg K motor) can produce full torque at such a low RPM. The other possible configuration (Supra) would be a little turbo and for lor range , and a large garett blower for the high range??

Yet BMW uses a conventional bi-turbo design, and the power delivery seems astonishing

2) the following picture , which i presume is from the 335i coupe (because of the paddle shifters)
shows that the engine red-lines at 7000+rpm... cosidering that the naturally aspirated engine is capable of reving to about 6500rpm , how is it possible that the bi-turbo engine can operate at such a high RPM? a bi-turbo capable of operating at such high engine speeds, would surely require very expensive parts to keep frictional forces to a minumum, and that would add cost ??? besides is there any point to it revving to 7000+RPM, when the power band bmw states is 400nm until 5000rpm? does anyone know what the power figures are after 5000rpm, is the torque curve still linear (as in a constant output), does it fall and by how much ??


Thanks , and now three things that i dont get.
1) with the paddle shifters, does the 335i have a hard start similar to the 545i and 550i where you floor the throttle and the car waits for the revs to build for an optimum start
2) what is the difference in appearance between the e92 with and without sports package? all the pics ive seen from bmw look the same.
3) comparing

and

why is the mesh in the front spoiler so different ? i mean both cars are 335i and both seem to have the sports package on (the spoilers look the same to me)... is this an extra?

thanks all

A) BMW does release power curves. We have posted boh the Euro and USA ones on this board after they came out. 335i one not out yet, but will be posted when it comes

1) As said before, small turbos
2)Normal 6Cylinders also redline at 7,000RPM

B1) No, its not smg, just extra pedals for the automatic gearbox so you dont have to use the shifter to change in manual mode
B2) Ride hight and Wheels
B3) Pictures are photoshope enhanced. We will have to see if there is just a black version or also a silver of the mesh on the real car.

[BIMMERVIBE]

can someone post pictures of the bi turbo inline six engine?

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by BIMMERVIBE

can someone post pictures of the bi turbo inline six engine?

Press pics: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=n54

Geneva Pics: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=n54

[croaker]

Why does that pic of the interior show an i-drive knob with no screen?

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by croaker

Why does that pic of the interior show an i-drive knob with no screen?

Its a computer mockup of the cabin and someone at BMW USA forgot to take away the Idrive knob before they posted the pic.
They have since removed the pic

[croaker]

You just can't find good help any more. jeesh.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by 0700700

I was wondering if anyone would like to share their thoughts with us about the new 3.0litre bi-turbo engine. Having seen some of the specs, i must say that BMW has really done an astonishing accomplishment on paper at least.

I was wondering if anyone has any specific information about torque and the powerband of the engine. I know that BMW does not typically release any concise torque curves for the engines, but maybe someone (GregA?) has more information.

My questions are the following:

1) 400nm are available from 1400rpm all the way to 5000rpm, how is this possible? having been quite interested in forced induction, i think that only a radial compressor (as the 5.5litre Amg K motor) can produce full torque at such a low RPM. The other possible configuration (Supra) would be a little turbo and for lor range , and a large garett blower for the high range??

Yet BMW uses a conventional bi-turbo design, and the power delivery seems astonishing



shows that the engine red-lines at 7000+rpm... cosidering that the naturally aspirated engine is capable of reving to about 6500rpm , how is it possible that the bi-turbo engine can operate at such a high RPM? a bi-turbo capable of operating at such high engine speeds, would surely require very expensive parts to keep frictional forces to a minumum, and that would add cost ??? besides is there any point to it revving to 7000+RPM, when the power band bmw states is 400nm until 5000rpm? does anyone know what the power figures are after 5000rpm, is the torque curve still linear (as in a constant output), does it fall and by how much ??




thanks all

BMW claims 300ft-lbs of torque from 1,400rpm's - 5,000rpm's. Now since I don't have an exact dyno-chart i have to draw on my knowledge of engines.

First off, as you have repeated, BMW's new engine is a BI-TURBO... meaning that cylinders 1-3 use the first turbo and 4-6 use the second. Secondly, the new engine is a marvelious performer in it's own right and the super small bi-turbos don't add much boost ... perhaps 4psi.

Since the bi-turbo design means small turbos (low mass) they can spool (spin) very easily thus resulting in great torque #'s at such a low RPM. These turbo's are about 50% smaller than what your use to seeing.

(example: So 2 of them equals 1 normal turbo in output, but that output starts at a very early stage.... baby's breath could move one of these....!)

Remember, this engine was designed specifically for a bi-turbo design and is not a "bolt on" addative. Thus the NA aspect of the engine was taken to a higher level and engine managment is more sophisticated. but underneith it all, it is still a high-revving Inline-6 engine capable of 6,900rpm's.

The turbo's are only adding about 50hp and 60ft/lbs of torque... there is still a 3.0 liter engine there...!!


I would expect the performance of this new engine to equal that of the current M3. It has higher Torque #'s and that torque comes in alot sooner. I'm sure with some agressive gearing the 335 will "hunt". I doubt BMW will match that torque with a slighter "taller" first gear and opt for a quicker engine acceleration (rev) first gear. Meaning, they might not gear it for best out of the hole performance... so those current M3 owner don't get pissed.





-Garrett

[bos]

What's interesting is that 300 ft*lb of torque at 5000rpm is 285hp, so it is already producing near its max hp at 5000rpm. The torque will drop from that point onward, though I would generally expect hp to keep increasing gradually until near redline.

It's quite possible that this is all ECU-limited and the engine can really produce more. The 300 ft*lb max across such a large rpm range almost certainly means that the computer is limiting torque to protect the engine and transmission.