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      06-18-2018, 07:41 AM   #1
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2018 Best RHD turbo upgrade options

For the cost of labour in fixing my OEM turbos, I'm seriously considering just replacing them.

Talk to me about it.

VTT, Pure, RB ... Twin or Single?

I've already got aftermarket inlets and outlets for OEM twins, and the car's a daily driver. I'm not really interested in PI, but I could be convinced about meth.
(That should give you an idea of my power goals/limit)

It'd be nice to get 500whp on BP/Shell Ultimate thus avoiding having to drive out of my way for E85; and I do rather like the current OEM lack of noticeable turbo lag. Also (and I know this is a real pipe dream) it'd also be nice to have a N54 that doesn't need $5k+ of maintenance/replacement parts per annum when I've finished.

Any thoughts?
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      06-18-2018, 07:40 PM   #2
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      06-18-2018, 10:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
What's your budget?
Very good question!!!

Fooking Nothing. I can barely afford to keep up with the maintenance items on this car. I am utterly _stunned_ at how much this car has cost me over the past 2 years, and have a shopping list of about $10k of maintenance and improvements that I'd like to do on it. ($2500 for suspension, $1500 for brakes, $4,000 for turbos, $3,000 labour for the aforementioned parts).

Unfortunately, there aren't many 4-seat sports cars on the market that have 400+whp and cost less than $30k, so I'm still better off improving the platform I've got than I am parting out and getting something different.

I have a stage 2 LPFP, and have very little interest in spending another $2k++ to start doing HPFP derestrictions, port injection and/or double barrel HPFP. .. then dealing with broken injectors etc.

Ideally I'd like to put in turbos that will max out the stock fuel system (w/ upgraded LPFP) using 98RON pump fuel, and are fast and responsive on the street.

I'd prefer to retain my existing aftermarket inlets and outlets that fit stock turbos since I spent about $1000 - $1500 getting them all installed etc.

But - when you're a sucker like me who's paying someone else to do all the labour, spending an extra $1,000 or $1,500 on equipment to begin with to get a better (or more reliable) result - I'm all for spending the extra and doing it right the first time.

I know that doesn't really answer your question, so I guess to be brief it's: as little as possible to get the best result - cognizant of the fact that the initial purchase price of parts in our little cars is often only a fraction of the 'true cost'.
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      06-18-2018, 10:21 PM   #4
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You only need 1 set of smoking twins before its cheaper to have gone single in the first place.

I know many of my friends who have gone upgraded twins and actually none have lasted more than 10k kms. Aftermarket twins have a poor track record and its definitely a risky route.

Personally I think either stick to stock twins or go single turbo. Ultimately these cars are limited by driver skill, grip and handling rather than outright power.

Single turbo, definitely takes a little more time to spool than the stock twins, noticeable but not huge. It is definitely awesome to have that midrange pull of the n54 all the way to redline. Its definitely not ideal with the top mount turbo close to plastic crap in the engine bay, but definitely easier to deal with than smokey twins that last less than an oil change interval.
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      06-18-2018, 11:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl View Post
I know many of my friends who have gone upgraded twins and actually none have lasted more than 10k kms. Aftermarket twins have a poor track record and its definitely a risky route.

Personally I think either stick to stock twins or go single turbo.
Wow, thanks. I was not expecting that feedback.

I had heard ST wasn't that much more expensive, is much easier to work on and fix once it's in, and has much higher peak performance, but I'd bet I wouldn't go very far with the stock fuel system; and to be honest, the greatest limitation I have today at speeds below 130kph is traction, not power. (And especially not peak power)

It was only that 'while I'm there, I may aswell upgrade' drive pushing me to aftermarkets - but if I have to go back in and re-do the job in a couple of years time, I'll be pissed.

I'm probably (much) better off just fixing the problem and replacing the turbo with the failed wastegate if need be. ... the good news is OEM turbos in good condition are actually pretty easy to come by.
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      06-19-2018, 12:53 AM   #6
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Given your concern over budget the HP goal on low octane fuel is unrealistic.
I second sticking with the oem units for the most reliable outcome and value.
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      06-19-2018, 02:02 AM   #7
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I too tell my wife how much this car needs to be "maintained"

Tyres and petrol being the obvious
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      06-19-2018, 06:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ansch View Post
I too tell my wife how much this car needs to be "maintained"

Tyres and petrol being the obvious
hahaha yeah. I mean, its not a cheap car to service at the best of times, but I do accept part of the problem might be me... for example, to rectify the issue of perished bump stocks I'll need new control arms, Bilstein b12s, Dinan camber plates and rear strut mounts...
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      06-29-2018, 04:23 PM   #9
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You wont get 500whp on 98 without meth or something else.

Pure stage 2 or RB Next gens should get you around 450whp with an intercooler and tuning.

You're looking at an $8-$9k + exercise and thats if the work is done by a good shop. If you happen to send it to a crap shop, you can expect to have issues and spend more.

Believe me i know

First question you need to ask is does the shop do its own custom tuning or does it outsource it to some muppet overseas? If the shop says they don't do their own custom tuning, run.

Last edited by schmick325; 06-29-2018 at 04:38 PM..
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      06-29-2018, 11:46 PM   #10
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In some ways this is easy for me, in that I've currently not got $6k to spend on a OEM replacement, let alone $10 for an upgraded replacement.

I'm waiting on a scope to work out if I can repair my current turbos. No mechanic will go near it, but like my $55 rear-window repair; its one of those things that a 'bush mechanic' job will do no harm and save literally THOUSANDS and will only make a difference to the value of the car if I sell it.

If I can't repair my turbos, I'll be driving around in N/A mode for a number of months while I either save up, or work out what to do. (I'm pretty locked-in to the current car since nobody in their right mind would want a 10 year old 1 series FBO convertible with a racing diff and a broken turbo. Even with working or upgraded turbos I'm pretty confident I'll be the last owner of this car).

Despite the fact that its probably a stupid decision, I can't bring myself to either pay someone $4k - $6k to replace OEM turbos with OEM, or spend a week doing it myself - when for 30% extra I can get aftermarket turbos that open up the possibilities for the next decade of ownership of the car. (I don't want to touch the fuel system or do E85 for the forseeable future; but that would change in a heartbeat if the service station down the road got E85)

... So vtl I know it's stupid, but I value your advice and am downright worried about your observations; I'm probably still going to go a Stage 2 turbo(s) if I do this job.

As far as I can find there's no proven single turbo option for RHD 135i owners... There's certainly options for E90, but nothing I've found that's not highly experimental for E82/E88.

As to if I get the work done by an established tuner in Sydney; by a mechanic that I trust to do the labour (but not the tuning) locally; or go and spend a couple of weeks interstate with my old man and his hoist (honestly, there are worse ways to spend your holidays than with your father rebuilding an engine)... You'll hear from me once I've ruled out that I can't fix the current turbos in a way that no self-respecting mechanic would dare.

schmick325 & thanks for the advice about power goals. 450rwhp (or less) is fine. I currently run about 380rwhp on pump and 435 on 60% E85. At 380 in daily spirited driving, and 435rwhp in a straight line I'm limited by grip, and skill; not power.

500 is only a number.

Last edited by xQx; 06-29-2018 at 11:53 PM..
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      06-30-2018, 04:28 AM   #11
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Ive got RB Next Gens Plus's and just properly tuned for 334rwkw on 98RON which is about 450whp.

The car is plenty rapid and any more power over this you will start breaking things.

I see you're in QLD. If you want good shop hit up Simply Tuning in Brendale.
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      06-30-2018, 04:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmick325 View Post
Ive got RB Next Gens Plus's and just properly tuned for 334rwkw on 98RON which is about 450whp.

The car is plenty rapid and any more power over this you will start breaking things.

I see you're in QLD. If you want good shop hit up Simply Tuning in Brendale.
thanks. how many KMs have you done since you put them in, and how would you compare it to OEM?
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      06-30-2018, 04:53 AM   #13
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Only just installed, done 1000 kms. The torque hits way harder than stock. The Next Gen plus's have a bit of noise in them, i'd prob go Pure stage 2 or just the normal next gens if i had to do it again.
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      06-30-2018, 05:00 AM   #14
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I think there's a few ways to look at the track record of hybrid twins. Sure, 3-5 years ago they had a woeful record, but things have definitely improved in recent times.

Also, are we considering people who run them at 25psi on E85 and drive the car hard, or perhaps running them on 18-19psi and not thrashing their cars.
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      06-30-2018, 09:53 AM   #15
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Basically it comes down to this, if you cannot afford to have a set of aftermarket twins smoke then do not get them, they're way too risky to rely on as an avenue to save money.

I've worked on many e82s/ e92s and have built a single turbo car, ironically the e92 has a lower bonnet than the e82 so there's more space height wise. They are quite similar engine bay sizes, e82 has around 4mm less space between the engine and radiator, which is barely noticeable when working on the car. Ducks rhd single manifold will fit e9x/e8x no problem, and have seen that manifold on a number of 135is, not sure how you came to the conclusion that they wouldn't fit?

I think you're maybe getting too caught up in maximising dollars spend vs numbers. Comparison between OEM turbo cost vs aftermarket turbo cost for "only" X percent more money is not the way to go imo. Should be thinking about whether these products have actually had a good track record and whether they'll last at the power goals you require. Everyone moans about how unreliable the OEM twins that last well over 120-180k KMs and then slaps on aftermarket twins thatt last less than 5-10ks? I just don't understand that. Biggest problems with smokey aftermarket twins is that you'll be up for install costs (easily $2k) plus shipping (pure charged a friend 700$ just in shipping fees to rebuild their smoking turbo under warranty). Most people will just cry inside, part out the car and leave the platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
In some ways this is easy for me, in that I've currently not got $6k to spend on a OEM replacement, let alone $10 for an upgraded replacement.

I'm waiting on a scope to work out if I can repair my current turbos. No mechanic will go near it, but like my $55 rear-window repair; its one of those things that a 'bush mechanic' job will do no harm and save literally THOUSANDS and will only make a difference to the value of the car if I sell it.

If I can't repair my turbos, I'll be driving around in N/A mode for a number of months while I either save up, or work out what to do. (I'm pretty locked-in to the current car since nobody in their right mind would want a 10 year old 1 series FBO convertible with a racing diff and a broken turbo. Even with working or upgraded turbos I'm pretty confident I'll be the last owner of this car).

Despite the fact that its probably a stupid decision, I can't bring myself to either pay someone $4k - $6k to replace OEM turbos with OEM, or spend a week doing it myself - when for 30% extra I can get aftermarket turbos that open up the possibilities for the next decade of ownership of the car. (I don't want to touch the fuel system or do E85 for the forseeable future; but that would change in a heartbeat if the service station down the road got E85)

... So vtl I know it's stupid, but I value your advice and am downright worried about your observations; I'm probably still going to go a Stage 2 turbo(s) if I do this job.

As far as I can find there's no proven single turbo option for RHD 135i owners... There's certainly options for E90, but nothing I've found that's not highly experimental for E82/E88.

As to if I get the work done by an established tuner in Sydney; by a mechanic that I trust to do the labour (but not the tuning) locally; or go and spend a couple of weeks interstate with my old man and his hoist (honestly, there are worse ways to spend your holidays than with your father rebuilding an engine)... You'll hear from me once I've ruled out that I can't fix the current turbos in a way that no self-respecting mechanic would dare.

schmick325 & thanks for the advice about power goals. 450rwhp (or less) is fine. I currently run about 380rwhp on pump and 435 on 60% E85. At 380 in daily spirited driving, and 435rwhp in a straight line I'm limited by grip, and skill; not power.

500 is only a number.
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      06-30-2018, 05:27 PM   #16
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I have been sent 2 dynos of rb evos on pump fuel and both made over 500hp on dyno dynamics.

One was 502.5hp and 590ftlb
Other was 508hp with no torque reading





Quote:
Originally Posted by schmick325 View Post
You wont get 500whp on 98 without meth or something else.

Pure stage 2 or RB Next gens should get you around 450whp with an intercooler and tuning.

You're looking at an $8-$9k + exercise and thats if the work is done by a good shop. If you happen to send it to a crap shop, you can expect to have issues and spend more.

Believe me i know

First question you need to ask is does the shop do its own custom tuning or does it outsource it to some muppet overseas? If the shop says they don't do their own custom tuning, run.
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      07-02-2018, 05:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brule View Post
I have been sent 2 dynos of rb evos on pump fuel and both made over 500hp on dyno dynamics.

One was 502.5hp and 590ftlb
Other was 508hp with no torque reading
Whose Dyno?

Shootout mode or tuning mode?

Mine make 334rwkw on Tuning and 374rwkw on Shootout
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      07-03-2018, 11:46 PM   #18
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Trade up to a different car with that power.
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      07-04-2018, 05:36 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by MrBlonde View Post
Trade up to a different car with that power.
the thought had crossed my mind.

hey, anyone want to buy a 10 year old BMW convertible with an automatic gearbox, race diff, FBO, a busted turbo and a hillbilly repair job on the back window?

.. didn't think so.

I found this video today about JayEmm talking about his ownership of an E46 M3, which sounds exactly like my 1er ownership experience:


Unlike JayEmm, I'm no quitter. I'm going to keep fixing and upgrading this thing until it gets written off in an accident.
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      07-05-2018, 02:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
I'm no quitter.
I agree.

These cars are now worth pretty much 15-25% of their initial retail cost (even if in decent condition), just mod/drive it until its dead I say - which is what im going to do.

I love my E88. Just finalising the parts to get an e92 M3 diff installed...and I daily it to work with FBO and E50 tune. I reckon a reliable option for twins or proper/cost effective single isn't far away.

I reckon single turbo E88 135i's with M3 diffs and 335i xdrive retrofits are the way to go.
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      07-15-2018, 11:49 PM   #21
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So, I did a crapload of my own research, found a few threads, then talked to the boys at simply tuning in Brisbane who seem to have a fantastic reputation on the N54 facebook group....

Here's what I found. The early RB turbos were shockers: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...1250823&page=3

Pure Stage 2 is far more popular, but many people say they're just better at silencing their customers on the forums, and are actually no more reliable than RB's.

I'm irrationally biased against VTT/MPP so I didn't look into them.

Rob Beck wrote on spool street forums a rebuttal in March 2018 of which I believe every word he's written. I'm quoting verbatim:

Quote:
N54 Twin Turbo Hybrids vs. Reliability Update (inc. RB Stats)
All,

Almost everyday there is a forum member talking about N54 Aftermarket Twins, usually in a negative fashion, which is understandable to a large extent and is a big reason for posting this update. It also seems like every day there's another vendor with a new setup, out with the old and in with the new they may say! Or maybe there is a new one in the pipeline that is thought could be the bees knees, mmmm cool! Or perhaps there are some out there that are seemingly good to go already, hmmm but who knows it is the internet right?

Ultimately we have seen it all before, vendors come and go, or they change products constantly, outsource more, and tend to shove off the old into the abyss; while never quite dialing in the last round, then optimistically approach the next round (rinse and repeat), and/or disappear altogether. While the consumer, left in a daze of trying to figure out what is what or what is up or down, still hopes that someday an aftermarket turbo vendor can deliver to them what they are simply wanting: A Higher power product offering that works as advertised and of course doesn’t suffer with any longevity issues and all for a fair price.

While the above may come off memory suppressive or pompous (on our behalf), make no mistake we have been there and done that and certainly have taken our fair share of lumps over the years with this platform. However with enough time, care, and pride in your brand comes improvements such that Turbo building is down to a science. Turbo build improvements aside there also has been much platform evolution since 2010, to think about all these upgraded turbos that ran OEM inlets until the Inlet craze began in 2015, who would dream of doing such a thing today? You live and you learn.

At any rate times have certainly changed and we figured it was time to give a GOOD update on REAL quality numbers from our very own product portfolio including all units shipped from 1/1/17 to current date (and some prior). In this specific timeframe we have sold and shipped ~175 sets (350 units); and also in this time we have had only 1 unit come back and it was due to a customer/install issue by the customers own admission. Even if we were to take ownership, this puts us at a meager 0.3% failure rate, so not too bad. So quality has been absolutely amazing and the customer complaints have been CRICKETS for a very long time. Best yet anytime there is a phone call or email it is only from a happy customer, and the only turbos we see coming back are either simply core returns or fairly old setups.

RB N54 Product Portfolio Stats:
RB OEM’s/RB OEM Billets (DIY and Full setups):
1) In production for ~16 months.
2) ~85 sets shipped since introduction.
3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

RB Ones (DIY and Full setups):
1) In production for ~12 months.
2) ~35 sets shipped since introduction.
3) 1 complaints that yielded 1 return.

RB Twos (Limited to 5 beta sets):
1) In production for 4 months.
2) 5 sets shipped since introduction.
3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

RB Next Gens:
1) In production for 2.5 years.
2) ~165 sets shipped since introduction.
3) 2 complaints that yielded 2 returns (Note: Both occurrences in 2016).

RB Next Gen Plus:
1) In production for ~16 months.
2) ~35 sets shipped since introduction.
3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

Super RB Stealths*:
1) Latest version in production for ~14 months.
2) ~5 sets shipped.
3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

Super RB EVO 15T/17T/19T*:
1) Latest version in production for ~14 months.
2) ~25 sets shipped.
3) 0 complaints and 0 returns.

*Product stats including all shipments from 1/1/17, at which point some build techniques were changed to improve quality, which since has successfully demonstrated a 0% failure rate to date.

In conclusion a couple years ago we would’ve argued that a 10% failure rate is reasonable, hey that is only 1 out of 10 with a problem right? Anyway these days we’d beg to differ in that if as a vendor you are seeing more than a 1% failure rate; either you have terrible luck with your install techs or customer base or there is something that could be improved in the turbo build itself (or perhaps the environment around them).

Thanks,
Rob
So, I was all set to pull the trigger on a pair of RB NextGens (or similar).

... until I spoke to the boys at simply Tuning. Once you add up the costs of new twins, labour, and the ancillary parts, you come to a $6,500 - $7,000 changeover. It's going to be a nice, fast, fun car... but you've really got to choose the twins that you want forever (ie. am I going to go Petrol Injection in the future and get some RB Next Gen Plus's now, or get some RB Ones with fast spool-up but forever be limited to ~475whp. Compare that to a ST changeover, which can be done for about $9.5k all up including everything.

If anything goes wrong with the ST, it's dead easy to change. If you want to chase 800whp, it's dead easy to swap for a bigger one.

In QLD, there's no law against swapping a Twin Turbo car for a big single. In NSW and VIC, you boys will attract a canary if they pop the hood and see a big single.

Since I live in QLD, meaning I'm close to one of maybe two known tuning shops in Australia that have a reputation for doing this job well, and it's "only" another $3k ... I'm thinking I'll be the first idiot in Australia to do a single turbo conversion on an Automatic 135i Convertible.

I would start a build thread, but who wants to read a thread full of statements like "I took it to shop xxx and they did yyy for me".
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      07-16-2018, 01:35 AM   #22
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I would start a build thread, but who wants to read a thread full of statements like "I took it to shop xxx and they did yyy for me".
I would

I like scope creep when modifying cars, I am big sufferer of it as well.
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