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      08-04-2014, 07:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky335
I'm considering these as well. Is everyone running stock sizes? I noticed they also make them in 255/35 and 275/35

JB
I just ordered stock sizes....the conservative option.
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      08-10-2014, 12:35 PM   #24
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I autocrossed on the PSC2s yesterday. For reference I've previously run PS2s, PSS, RS-3s and Dunlop Sport Maxx Race at this location in similar conditions. 16 passes in 70-80 degree weather, two sessions, so I got some time to play with pressures, etc. Overall the tires are very good, but not well suited for autocross.

The tires do need heat to work. The first pass was throw away, and three to four passes were needed for max performance. I settled at 36 psi for pressure- below the tires felt even sloppier, above grip went away. I was able to overheat them, but it took effort- multiple back to back runs with over-driving saw temperatures over 150, at which point they started to get slightly greasy, but it was easy to manage temps below this once I knew where they went off. Temps were surprisingly even across the tire face as well as front to rear- they clearly work the rubber very evenly. They handle heat better than any of the other tires I've run, much better than the Dunlop SMR.

Balance was excellent with stock sizes on stock suspension- slight understeer or oversteer could be provoked. Grip once warm was very good, again better than any of the above. Wear seemed very good, on par with an RS-3 in similar conditions, much better than the SMR.

Feel. The biggest surprise was that turn-in response is poor. The steering feels slightly heavy and dead until the car takes a set. I had to significantly re-adjust my turn-in points and the amount of wheel movement needed to get the car to apexes, and be very early to attack slaloms and transitions. Once turned in the tires became more responsive and precise, and they proved quite resistant to washing out with understeer, but the feel was very slow compared to an RS-3 or the stock PS2s. If you don't like the slow response and soft sidewall feel of the PSS you'll probably hate it.

Flip side- amazing stability and consistency of grip. By the end of the day I was pushing incredibly hard, getting the car slightly out of shape more than 5 times a lap, and the grip was so consistent and slides so small and easy to catch that the tires just encouraged pushing harder. If an RS-3 is forgiving as well, it would get relatively more out of shape and require a lift to gather, where on the Cup 2s I was able to simply keep the hammer down while catching high speed bobbles, never afraid that it might try and get away from me. Grip is very progressive, and the car never tries to "wash out" with either understeer or oversteer- balance is maintained fairly close to neutral even when you get one end sliding.

This allows serious speed once you know how to exploit it, and the tires are undoubtedly fast. I came in seven 10ths off of top time, but behind seriously quick cars: a 600 whp 996 GT2 on Hoosiers, a 991 GT3 and another race prepped Porsche on slicks. Thus the tires are faster than anything else I've run on the car, or probably anything with a 180 treadwear rating, assuming you can get them to temp.

I think the Cup 2s would make great big-track tires, the stability and consistency of grip being exactly what the 1M could use more of. They might even make good (and clearly fast) autocross tires in hot conditions with lots of runs. I'm tempted to play with alignment, toe out up front, to help turn-in. For the AX I think the RS-3s are more fun, with better turn-in and a more playful demeanor, but ultimately it's probably slower once you've adjusted to these.

So a mixed bag, but very good competition tires, and the high-speed stability they impart is also much appreciated even on the freeway drive home.
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      08-10-2014, 07:30 PM   #25
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Pete that is a great review, and mirrors what I have read about them before.

Thanks for the write up.

I will add my impressions after next weekend.

Cheers.
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      08-18-2014, 05:39 AM   #26
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Feedback here:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...1021122&page=2

Note this is a different environment than from what I can gather Pete's review is based on. It's a medium length track with two long straights (~ 220kph and 230kph), one high speed downhill off-camber corner (~140 kph) and a few tighter 2nd and 3rd gear corners including turn 1 which is about 100kph or so with lots of runout which rewards trail braking and can be taken in one long 4 wheel drift.

Similar thoughts to others.

Interested to know what pressures people are using.
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      08-18-2014, 01:20 PM   #27
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I ran the tires at the autocross again this weekend, but on a concrete instead of low grip asphalt surface. I also re-aligned my car with more front toe-out.

Grip was well up, and the built heat faster even in cool conditions. Honestly grip is too high for my stock suspension, and the car was rolling/ pitching far too much. The front toe-out helped turn-in slightly. The biggest difference was that on the high grip surface the tires don't go away very progressively- they hold on for dear life and the car winds up, then they let go with a snap. Not uncontrollably, zero danger of a spin, but it wasn't progressive.

This surface seemed to like lower pressures, 35 seemed better and I was working my way lower.

Michelin plans to make a run at the street tire SCCA market, and they are going to release sizes down through 18s. I think this tire will be fast there on suspensions that can handle it. Honestly the stock 1M suspension can't, at least in high grip AX conditions- this tire simply had too much stick for the chassis...
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      08-20-2014, 05:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Michelin plans to make a run at the street tire SCCA market, and they are going to release sizes down through 18s. I think this tire will be fast there on suspensions that can handle it. Honestly the stock 1M suspension can't, at least in high grip AX conditions- this tire simply had too much stick for the chassis...
Wait...the PSC2 is rated at 180 treadwear, so it's not legal in SCCA street tire class (200 min), but they already have a great tire for that -- the BFG Rival. Try some Rivals, you'll be blown away by the turn-in (given what I've read in your review above of the PSC2s) as it's rock solid and precise (at least on my E90 M3). The Rival does great on asphalt but perhaps not as well as some other top street autox tires on concrete like at Nationals.
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      08-20-2014, 06:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Wait...the PSC2 is rated at 180 treadwear, so it's not legal in SCCA street tire class (200 min), but they already have a great tire for that -- the BFG Rival. Try some Rivals, you'll be blown away by the turn-in (given what I've read in your review above of the PSC2s) as it's rock solid and precise (at least on my E90 M3). The Rival does great on asphalt but perhaps not as well as some other top street autox tires on concrete like at Nationals.
Currently SCCA street tire is 140 treadwear, next year it goes to 200. The change caught out Michelin and a few others- Yokohama ADO8, Hankook RS-3, etc. We'll see if Michelin releases a "version 2" with a higher TWR like Hankook (RS-3 v2), etc.

I've tried Rivals, RE-11s, RS-3s, etc on different cars. Zero question the PSC2s are considerably stickier, and there are not great 19" sizes in the Rivals. Unfortunately unless I change from stock suspension I think the PSC2s are too sticky, so I'll probably go back to something else next- less grip but more fun.

BTW, turn-in isn't spectacular on the Rival on some setups either, some guys are putting Spec Star IIs up front with Rival rears with good results- something to consider if you feel the same.
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      08-20-2014, 06:43 PM   #30
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I'm under the impression that there is no universal "standard" for tire wear ratings recognized by tire manufacturers and that the ratings are used primarily for marketing purposes. For this reason, I believe that they are only useful to compare the wear for a given manufacturer's line of tires.

Right or wrong?

EDIT: Found this on TireRack's website "The problem with UTQG Treadwear Grades is that they are open to some interpretation on the part of the tire manufacturer because they are assigned after the tire has only experienced a little treadwear as it runs the 7,200 miles. This means that the tire manufacturers need to extrapolate their raw wear data when they are assigning Treadwear Grades, and that their grades can to some extent reflect how conservative or optimistic their marketing department is. Typically, comparing the Treadwear Grades of tire lines within a single brand is somewhat helpful, while attempting to compare the grades between different brands is not as helpful."

Neil

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      08-20-2014, 06:56 PM   #31
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180 TW? Not legal for SCCA autocross Street classes. All they had to do was slap a 200TX on the side.
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      08-20-2014, 07:57 PM   #32
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I was under the impression that the PSC2 wasn't legal this year (even though above min treadwear rating for this year) due to not having enough size availability anyway?

I don't think there is *any* effort within Michelin to have the PSC2 be an SCCA Street Tire class tire. The PSC2 development effort is located in France, and the tire is focused on track/high-end cars as opposed to SCCA autocross. Michelin's effort for street tire class tires is the Rival -- all development and manufacturing of the Rival is here in the USA.
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      08-20-2014, 08:05 PM   #33
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I haven't looked that closely. I'm quite happy with my 0 TW Hoosier A6s.

Come 1/1/2015, I have no flipping idea what I am going to do. I could do an ASP build, but tweaking the ECU/DME/CPU *might* impact a warranty situation (yes I did the extended drive train coverage). Maybe with Dinan stuff, but it's very expensive, and they seem to want to hustle for more parts than just the engine tune (I remember it requires a Dinan exhaust and other Dinan bits). Yup the SEB is sure making things cheaper for me.

I could go to girlie tires in B Street (as mentioned above), but I'm addicted to the Hoosier Purple Crack.
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      08-21-2014, 08:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattm View Post
I haven't looked that closely. I'm quite happy with my 0 TW Hoosier A6s.

Come 1/1/2015, I have no flipping idea what I am going to do. I could do an ASP build, but tweaking the ECU/DME/CPU *might* impact a warranty situation (yes I did the extended drive train coverage). Maybe with Dinan stuff, but it's very expensive, and they seem to want to hustle for more parts than just the engine tune (I remember it requires a Dinan exhaust and other Dinan bits). Yup the SEB is sure making things cheaper for me.

I could go to girlie tires in B Street (as mentioned above), but I'm addicted to the Hoosier Purple Crack.
Matt -

Cobb AccessPort flash tune. Way less expensive than Dinan and very easily removable before dealer visits.

Feel free to contact me offline if you want to discuss.

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      08-21-2014, 09:00 AM   #35
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Neil: I'm back to the problem I have on the forum of trying to post or send a private message and I get an error note saying to add more than one character even though I have a whole paragraph (that gets lost too). But I can post to existing threads like this one.
email: mattm at optonline dot net
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      08-21-2014, 11:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
I don't think there is *any* effort within Michelin to have the PSC2 be an SCCA Street Tire class tire. The PSC2 development effort is located in France, and the tire is focused on track/high-end cars as opposed to SCCA autocross. Michelin's effort for street tire class tires is the Rival -- all development and manufacturing of the Rival is here in the USA.
Michelin held a tire clinic in Monterey last week where they stated their intention for the MPSC2 to become the dominant choice for "street tire" classes, and that they will be releasing a wide range of sizes down through 18". They obviously think worldwide, and there are plenty of other time attack classes to go after, but they wanted to be SCCA legal to increase market share.

180 treadwear is entirely arbitrary, as all tire manufactures are gaming TWR in order to stay class legal. The old Sport Cup was 80 treadwear, and Michelin states the new one will last "up to 50% longer". How that equates to more than 2x the TWR I'm not sure, but Hankook and others are using the same math: The RS-3 was 140 TWR, just legal per old SCCA rules, then the rules changed and suddenly a "V2" came out with 200 TWR. If 200 TWR becomes "the number" across multiple classes you'll see many more tires changing TWR, including the PSC2.
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      08-21-2014, 12:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Michelin held a tire clinic in Monterey last week where they stated their intention for the MPSC2 to become the dominant choice for "street tire" classes, and that they will be releasing a wide range of sizes down through 18". They obviously think worldwide, and there are plenty of other time attack classes to go after, but they wanted to be SCCA legal to increase market share.
Interesting, thanks for the input. Was Peter Calhoun there doing the presentation? I am surprised that they have plans to provide a wide range of sizes for the PSC2 and make it street class legal since that is unlike all previous PSC editions; hopefully that means prices will fall below the current $450ish range per tire.

I've got three sets of wheels for the M3, but only one is 19" (OEM 220s) which is my street set (PSS'). I'd like to test the PSC2 versus the Rivals versus the NT-01s (those two are on my 18" sets), but I looked into the cost of doing so a bit...would run a bit over $3000 (almost $1900 of that are the tires).
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      01-12-2015, 12:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Michelin held a tire clinic in Monterey last week where they stated their intention for the MPSC2 to become the dominant choice for "street tire" classes, and that they will be releasing a wide range of sizes down through 18". They obviously think worldwide, and there are plenty of other time attack classes to go after, but they wanted to be SCCA legal to increase market share.

180 treadwear is entirely arbitrary, as all tire manufactures are gaming TWR in order to stay class legal. The old Sport Cup was 80 treadwear, and Michelin states the new one will last "up to 50% longer". How that equates to more than 2x the TWR I'm not sure, but Hankook and others are using the same math: The RS-3 was 140 TWR, just legal per old SCCA rules, then the rules changed and suddenly a "V2" came out with 200 TWR. If 200 TWR becomes "the number" across multiple classes you'll see many more tires changing TWR, including the PSC2.
I just heard back from Michelin specifically questioning them about the PSC2 and street class SCCA tire requirements. Here is their reply:

Quote:
We do not have any Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires coming out with a TW of 200.

They are all 180 for the Pilot Sport Cup 2.

We are sorry that you were given incorrect information.

We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.
Hence the info you heard at Monterey appears to be incorrect. They apparently do not have current plans for the PSC2 to become an SCCA autocross street tire class tire...at least for 2015 I guess.
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      01-16-2015, 10:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Michelin held a tire clinic in Monterey last week where they stated their intention for the MPSC2 to become the dominant choice for "street tire" classes, and that they will be releasing a wide range of sizes down through 18". They obviously think worldwide, and there are plenty of other time attack classes to go after, but they wanted to be SCCA legal to increase market share.

180 treadwear is entirely arbitrary, as all tire manufactures are gaming TWR in order to stay class legal. The old Sport Cup was 80 treadwear, and Michelin states the new one will last "up to 50% longer". How that equates to more than 2x the TWR I'm not sure, but Hankook and others are using the same math: The RS-3 was 140 TWR, just legal per old SCCA rules, then the rules changed and suddenly a "V2" came out with 200 TWR. If 200 TWR becomes "the number" across multiple classes you'll see many more tires changing TWR, including the PSC2.
I just heard back from Michelin specifically questioning them about the PSC2 and street class SCCA tire requirements. Here is their reply:

Quote:
We do not have any Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires coming out with a TW of 200.

They are all 180 for the Pilot Sport Cup 2.

We are sorry that you were given incorrect information.

We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.
Hence the info you heard at Monterey appears to be incorrect. They apparently do not have current plans for the PSC2 to become an SCCA autocross street tire class tire...at least for 2015 I guess.

I am not an SCCA nerd. I did just receive an email from the region in my area with the following rule

" Tire Tread Wear Notification
Do you have stacks of 140 tread wear tires left over from last year? Although no longer legal for competition at SCCA National level events, Texas Region SCCA Solo Supplementary Rules for 2015 includes the following 2015 Street Tire Special Provision:
For the competition year of 2015, for all Texas Region Solo events, all classes that are required by the Solo Rules to compete on street tires with a minimum tread wear rating of 200 shall be allowed to use tires with a minimum tread wear rating of 140"


Interesting local wrinkle.
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      01-16-2015, 01:52 PM   #40
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So is that Matt's review of the PSC2 on TireRack's site?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Sport+Cup+2

EDIT: First review -- accessible by clicking "Reviews" -- is from a 1M owner based on his autox experience with the tire.

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      01-17-2015, 08:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
So is that Matt's review of the PSC2 on TireRack's site?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Sport+Cup+2

EDIT: First review -- accessible by clicking "Reviews" -- is from a 1M owner based on his autox experience with the tire.

Neil
The two reviews are nearly opposite of one another; one says the tires are really good for camber-challenged cars, and first one says the opposite. And this is the first time I am hearing Cup tires becoming greasy during autox, which would imply getting them to overheat during track sessions would be too easy. What to believe???
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      01-19-2015, 10:50 AM   #42
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My tire-rack review. Following up, they are wearing like iron. Normally I'd burn up streetable Rs over the summer and swap to "summer" tires for winter, but these aren't even close to the wear bars. Easily 2x the life of a Dunlop Sport Maxx race or even an RS-3 (probably). Decent grip in the wet, limited ability to move standing water but you can keep up with freeway traffic in a downpour. Grip falls off rapidly below 60F.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
The two reviews are nearly opposite of one another; one says the tires are really good for camber-challenged cars, and first one says the opposite. And this is the first time I am hearing Cup tires becoming greasy during autox, which would imply getting them to overheat during track sessions would be too easy. What to believe???
Not sure where you're getting that the need camber?
Getting them greasy at the autocross too effort, back to back sideways runs to get them up to 150F (very high for an AX) where they just started falling off. With the right settings and more conservative (normal) driving style you'll have no problem keeping them from overheating at the track on all but the hottest days.

I've driven these on the 991 GT3, which was designed for them, and they feel quite different. Much more responsive and even grippier- not sure how much of that is chassis settings, tire size, construction, or all of the above.
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      01-19-2015, 11:08 AM   #43
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Damn. Too bad they are 180. Would have been the hot ticket in Chump Car that requires a minimum of 200.

We go through a lot of tires in Chump. 90 cars racing for three days going through 2 or 3 sets of tires each. 700-1000 tires a weekend at tracks all over North America is nothing to sneeze at.
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      01-19-2015, 06:39 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Not sure where you're getting that the need camber?
Getting them greasy at the autocross too effort, back to back sideways runs to get them up to 150F (very high for an AX) where they just started falling off. With the right settings and more conservative (normal) driving style you'll have no problem keeping them from overheating at the track on all but the hottest days.
My comments were on the two reviews that were posted on the TireRack site, I personally have no experience with these tires. MPSC N-spec though, I really did not like them, I could not ever find the right pressure for them on track and could not feel the grip levels, probably I wasn't getting enough heat on them as some suggested at the time.

I hear very positive feedback on the v2s, similar to yours, but those two reviews at TireRack confused me.
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Last edited by FTS; 01-19-2015 at 06:45 PM..
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