Camber on a DD

[Papa Popov]

Finally getting around to refreshing my suspension. I have B8s, BMWP springs, and RSFB inserts that I'll be installing on my currently stock sport package 128i in the next few weeks. However, I'm debating whether or not not I should throw in M3 control arms.

I'd love to have the upgraded bushings, but I'm a bit worried about the added camber noticeably increasing tire wear as my commute is a little over an hours of highway driving. It'd be nice to have for the backroads, but I'm not quite sure if its worth it in the long run.

I've considered putting M3 bushings in to the stock control arms, but that seems like it'll end up being much more expensive and troublesome considering the tools needed to do the job.

Can anyone weigh in on this? How much would -.75 degrees of camber impact tire wear?

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

Finally getting around to refreshing my suspension. I have B8s, BMWP springs, and RSFB inserts that I'll be installing on my currently stock sport package 128i in the next few weeks. However, I'm debating whether or not not I should throw in M3 control arms.

I'd love to have the upgraded bushings, but I'm a bit worried about the added camber noticeably increasing tire wear as my commute is a little over an hours of highway driving. It'd be nice to have for the backroads, but I'm not quite sure if its worth it in the long run.

I've considered putting M3 bushings in to the stock control arms, but that seems like it'll end up being much more expensive and troublesome considering the tools needed to do the job.

Can anyone weigh in on this? How much would -.75 degrees of camber impact tire wear?

Set your toe to zero and don't worry about it. I've been dailying my 1er at -2 to -2.5 camber up front for the last what, 4-5 years with no appreciable camber wear.

I'm pretty sure it's a myth at this point.

That said if your alignment sucks you'll scallop your tires. So take it to a known good alignment guy.

[Eyeman]

I agree mainly with Shock, toe combined with camber is where you get the bad tire wear. But you'll also have to fight with most alignment shops to put you at zero toe, of even any amount of toe that takes the readings lower that what show up as "in the green" specs.

Either way, under 1deg of camber is not enough to worry about. Go for it.

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Set your toe to zero and don't worry about it. I've been dailying my 1er at -2 to -2.5 camber up front for the last what, 4-5 years with no appreciable camber wear.

I'm pretty sure it's a myth at this point.

That said if your alignment sucks you'll scallop your tires. So take it to a known good alignment guy.

Appreciate it boss.

Cheers from Tigertown.

[asbrr]

I agree with both posts above, been running dinan camber plates which got me to -1.8 to -1.9 up front for years and the wear is fine as long as toe is close to 0.

One strong point of advice, consider skipping the M3 arms. My 128i is a daily driver, and I really regret adding the M-arms up front. The impact harshness has increased significantly. I got some extra camber which is great, the front end feels nice on a smooth road ...but for the street I would absolutely pass on this upgrade and just leave the B8s+springs and maybe camber plates if you want. The Dinan plates add about 5mm height up front (not an issue for your BMWP, but for the B12 kit with eibachs it evens the rake out perfectly), but are maintenance free and you can almost get -2 of camber if you want that.

Good luck.

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by asbrr

I agree with both posts above, been running dinan camber plates which got me to -1.8 to -1.9 up front for years and the wear is fine as long as toe is close to 0.

One strong point of advice, consider skipping the M3 arms. My 128i is a daily driver, and I really regret adding the M-arms up front. The impact harshness has increased significantly. I got some extra camber which is great, the front end feels nice on a smooth road ...but for the street I would absolutely pass on this upgrade and just leave the B8s+springs and maybe camber plates if you want. The Dinan plates add about 5mm height up front (not an issue for your BMWP, but for the B12 kit with eibachs it evens the rake out perfectly), but are maintenance free and you can almost get -2 of camber if you want that.

Good luck.

How much harshness are we talking about? There are third world countries with better roads than SC, so I don't want to throw them on and end up hating life spending 2+ hours on I-85 everyday. I would like more feedback and directness, but I could probably achieve that with new stock arms as mine are coming up on 110k. I don't want to end up regretting not spending the extra $50 on the M3 arms later on though.

Decisions decisions...

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by Eyeman

I agree mainly with Shock, toe combined with camber is where you get the bad tire wear. But you'll also have to fight with most alignment shops to put you at zero toe, of even any amount of toe that takes the readings lower that what show up as "in the green" specs.

Either way, under 1deg of camber is not enough to worry about. Go for it.

Can you recommend a solid alignment shop in the ATL or northeastern GA area? I work down that way and figure I'll have more options there than in the upstate.

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

How much harshness are we talking about? There are third world countries with better roads than SC, so I don't want to throw them on and end up hating life spending 2+ hours on I-85 everyday. I would like more feedback and directness, but I could probably achieve that with new stock arms as mine are coming up on 110k. I don't want to end up regretting not spending the extra $50 on the M3 arms later on though.

Decisions decisions...

It really depends on how bad your bad roads are. I occasionally drive Houston to SC and there is a stretch of I-10 at the TX-LA border that is concrete with bad expansion joints and it is near torture. It might be miserable in anything other than a 1980 Cadillac, but, it is really bad in my car. I don't come across anything that bad in N Georgia and in SC but haven't been on I-85 other than in Atlanta.

Also, I put the M arms on while still on runflats and it took about a week to change the tires (which were quite new).

All said, I wouldn't give up the steering responsiveness and road feel considering the roads I'm usually on. I don't commute and don't have to drive much at all.

I don't think you'll know if you made a mistake until you make the mistake

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

How much harshness are we talking about? There are third world countries with better roads than SC, so I don't want to throw them on and end up hating life spending 2+ hours on I-85 everyday. I would like more feedback and directness, but I could probably achieve that with new stock arms as mine are coming up on 110k. I don't want to end up regretting not spending the extra $50 on the M3 arms later on though.

Decisions decisions...

Get the M3 arms. Your roads are better than in our delapidated shithole city now that tecklenberg is in charge.

If the roads are too harsh get better dampers and ditch the runflats if you haven't.

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Get the M3 arms. Your roads are better than in our delapidated shithole city now that tecklenberg is in charge.

If the roads are too harsh get better dampers and ditch the runflats if you haven't.

Leaning towards the M3 arms.

Roads definitely weren't too bad when I spent 6 months in North Charleston there last year. The drivers and cops in that area are infinitely worse though. Half the guys on the road are jackass enlisteds in straight-piped stangs, and I will never go back to Goose Creek after getting a ticket for 11 over. That entire town is a speed trap.

B8s are in hand, will be paired with BMWP springs. I'm sure they'll be rough, but can't the worse than the stock sport suspension thats been on for 110k. Runflats are long gone, but I just scored a set of new RE980AS for under $500 installed. Those will be going on with the rest of the suspension bits.

[Eyeman]

I didn't notice any increase in harshness with the M3 front control arms. Just seemed more responsive for me.

Gran Turismo I think is generally considered the best alignment shop around ATL. I usually use them or Butler Tire.

[asbrr]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

How much harshness are we talking about? There are third world countries with better roads than SC, so I don't want to throw them on and end up hating life spending 2+ hours on I-85 everyday. I would like more feedback and directness, but I could probably achieve that with new stock arms as mine are coming up on 110k. I don't want to end up regretting not spending the extra $50 on the M3 arms later on though.

Decisions decisions...

The best way I can put it is any sharp bumps are "sharper", you feel it right in the steering wheel (makes sense as there is less slop overall). I'm in Toronto, and the winter wreaks havoc on our roads between the frost heave and salt etc. On smooth highways and roads it's totally fine, but my commute does involve some broken pavement and it's not pleasant, for me it put the car's suspension just beyond the threshold of what I would want for a supple daily driver. As stated by other posters, you can get a very nice set of dampers that will soak it all up, but that's another level of spending on suspension etc.

Last but not least, replacing arms up front is not a huge job, you do have to get another alignment though but if you have shot arms right now I do understand the dilemma....sorry, that's the best I can suggest. If your area has decent roads then perhaps it's ok for you...

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

Leaning towards the M3 arms.

Roads definitely weren't too bad when I spent 6 months in North Charleston there last year. The drivers and cops in that area are infinitely worse though. Half the guys on the road are jackass enlisteds in straight-piped stangs, and I will never go back to Goose Creek after getting a ticket for 11 over. That entire town is a speed trap.

B8s are in hand, will be paired with BMWP springs. I'm sure they'll be rough, but can't the worse than the stock sport suspension thats been on for 110k. Runflats are long gone, but I just scored a set of new RE980AS for under $500 installed. Those will be going on with the rest of the suspension bits.

Nice. Yeah not bad in north charleston. John's island is off limits for road crews though I think.

[Olgeezer1]

So, I've got B6's (same level of damping as B8's), stock Sport Pkg. springs, Dinan fixed camber plates. With 0 front toe and -1.5 camber all around there is no uneven tire wear at all. If you don't want to chance the M3 front arms you don't have to in order to get this level of camber and uneven tire wear is a complete non-issue.

[Suhb]

I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you avoid 0 toe on a daily driver. Toe is dynamic. 0 toe becomes negative toe out under heavy braking and from bump steer. Neither scenario inspires confidence.

Is 0 toe faster? Yes, under ideal conditions, but street driving is not always going to be ideal conditions. I've tried 0.00 toe, 0.03 in per wheel, 0.06 per wheel and stock. 0.06 is the only set up where I didn't get instability with bump steer and emergency braking. Car is still very nimble and I can place it where I need.

I also run 2.2 degrees of negative camber. it wears the tires evenly.

b12 kit, Dinan camber plates, m3 arms, strut tower pins are set to LEAST amount of camber.

[Papa Popov]

Did some digging and it seems that the upper control arms are what makes the difference in steering feel, while the lower arms are what add camber. I'm after the former, and indifferent about the latter. Has anyone installed just the upper arms?

[MightyMouseTech]

As an alignment tech, toe wears out tires, not camber. My own car has -2.4 front and -2.0 rear. I get even wear. My front toe is total 4 min toe in, and rear 10 min toe in. You want a little toe in, will improve tire wear and won't wander like 0 toe, also turns in faster.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

Did some digging and it seems that the upper control arms are what makes the difference in steering feel, while the lower arms are what add camber. I'm after the former, and indifferent about the latter. Has anyone installed just the upper arms?

The thrust rods (upper arms) prevent wheel movement forwards and back, so mainly controls toe change when braking, not much change to turning. The lower arms are the most important for handling, that is what takes the load when cornering, and you will see the biggest improvement there.

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

The thrust rods (upper arms) prevent wheel movement forwards and back, so mainly controls toe change when braking, not much change to turning. The lower arms are the most important for handling, that is what takes the load when cornering, and you will see the biggest improvement there.

Appreciate the info, gonna pull the trigger on the whole kit.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

Appreciate the info, gonna pull the trigger on the whole kit.

I have the whole kit on my 135, love it. You will absolutely need an alignment immediately after.

[Papa Popov]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I have the whole kit on my 135, love it. You will absolutely need an alignment immediately after.

I already need one, and with the new shocks/springs, RSFB inserts, and control arms going on all at once, I'm thinking I'm gonna get it towed to a shop (S/O to AAA for the free towing!), cause I'm sure it'll be a nightmare to drive after that.

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by Papa Popov

I already need one, and with the new shocks/springs, RSFB inserts, and control arms going on all at once, I'm thinking I'm gonna get it towed to a shop (S/O to AAA for the free towing!), cause I'm sure it'll be a nightmare to drive after that.

If you turn each tie rod outward by 3 1/2 turns it will be driveable. Way out of alignment but will not dangerous to drive.