Schroth Belts in a 1M

[mattm]

I received and installed them yesterday. So to avoid the "this post is worthless without pics," please see the attached.

[mattm]

Before I forget, there was a small wire and plug under the rear seat (passenger side). Anyone have a guess as to what plugs in there? (no I don't have a pic of that. I closed up the work for the belts before I remembered to take a pic.)

[fourtailpipes]

nice. rallye 3 harness from the looks of it?

if you haven't figured this out yet, you can hide them away nicely by disconnecting the quick-release tail strap, pulling the whole front assembly over the headrest and behind the front seat, then fold and tuck under the front seat.

[Blue55]

Are the mounts in the rear seat designed to bear the full force of an adult under impact or are they just engineered to hold a child's seat? I ask because I love the idea of semi-decent harness at the track, but I'm quite leery of making sure the setup is properly safe and engineered to a high enough standard. The mounts don't look very big imho.

[Blue55]

My bad, they look like they are clipped into the rear belt buckles. What model did you get? I'd like to pick up a set.

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by Blue55

Are the mounts in the rear seat designed to bear the full force of an adult under impact or are they just engineered to hold a child's seat? I ask because I love the idea of semi-decent harness at the track, but I'm quite leery of making sure the setup is properly safe and engineered to a high enough standard. The mounts don't look very big imho.

My Schroth 4-points are looped through the child seat mountings. Afaik they have been engineered by BMW to withstand a higher force than the mounts for the rear axle. You will have the "oh... the angle of the sholder straps is not right" discussion though.

[mattm]

yes correct, a Schroth Rally 3. Schroth does not make belts that will clip into our current seat belt latch mechanisms. I had the distinct inpression that it would be a few years before those come of age. My guess testing and liability issues are there too.

I am using the bolt in three point. The lap belts go into the rear seat track bolts and the strap out the back goes to the center tunnel latch. As I am only using it for autcross I should be okay with this set up and I am not planning to get it "turtle up." The directions deem to indicate that this might be okay (they're a little vague). Ideally they want it to go to the "C" pillar mount. These days there is a SRS/airbag there, so I am inclined not to mess with that part of the car. I did try a a "D" shaped clip used for mountain climbing, but the ones I have are a tad too large. I may wander to Eastern Moutain Sports and see if I can find one a little thinner. Then I can clip that to the child seat mount and allow for the belt to go straight back.

I may re-work the rear strap to go via the squirt seat mount but as noted it may not take the force as well as that seat buckle.

[mattm]

I just went to the Schroth site and saw that I have mounted the belt the correct way:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Ra...structions.pdf
See page 6 of their booklet or page 5 of the pdf.

[mattm]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

nice. rallye 3 harness from the looks of it?

if you haven't figured this out yet, you can hide them away nicely by disconnecting the quick-release tail strap, pulling the whole front assembly over the headrest and behind the front seat, then fold and tuck under the front seat.

Yes, I knew and saw this but for the "photo op" I thought it better to show it connected. On my 1996 E36 318i I had the same set up. BT, DT

[GaryS]

If attaching the rear strap that low is okay, I don't understand why it has to be Rallye 3 and not Rallye 4. I thought the point of Rallye 3 was to reduce the angle by attaching it high like this:

[mattm]

Gary, Where are you mounting the rear straps?

[BFD99]

I like those!

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by GaryS

If attaching the rear strap that low is okay, I don't understand why it has to be Rallye 3 and not Rallye 4. I thought the point of Rallye 3 was to reduce the angle by attaching it high like this:

the rallye 4 has issues in the e82 when the rear seats aren't removed because the outboard lap belt anchor in the rear (where the 4th point of the rallye 4 would connect) is obscured by the reinstallation of the rear seat bottom, creating artificial "slack" in that point, which isn't really safe. to use a rallye 4, the rear seat bottom should be removed or modified. attaching the shoulder belt at the rear lap belt anchors in the e82 is still debatable.

Originally Posted by mattm

Gary, Where are you mounting the rear straps?

seems like he's just using this photo as a reference?

[mattm]

Ok. For SCCA autocross/Solo removing the seat is not legal, so I am about as kosher as possible given the circumstances. If my schedule frees up Sunday, I will run the 1M on sticker Hoosiers, mounted on Forgestar wheels and the belts in place. The front struts are still a work in progress.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by mattm

Gary, Where are you mounting the rear straps?

I don't have one, but I spoke to HMS about it. When he told me Rallye 3 was the only harness for 135i, I asked if the reason was so it could be mounted high in back. He said yes, the angle down to rear lap mounts is too steep. Who knows, maybe we misunderstood each other.

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I don't have one, but I spoke to HMS about it. When he told me Rallye 3 was the only harness for 135i, I asked if the reason was so it could be mounted high in back. He said yes, the angle down to rear lap mounts is too steep. Who knows, maybe we misunderstood each other.

no, you understood him correctly. schroth will not sign off on an e82 installation with shoulder belts going to the rear lap belt anchor(s). curiously, they WILL sign off on draping the harness over a harness bar to improve the angle, while still anchoring to the rear lap belt points, assuming the bar sits comfortably behind the ASM portion of the shoulder belt. (this information is only accurate as of 2006 when i did this in my e46, but the belts haven't changed materially since then, so i suspect their answer would be the same)

[DriveHard]

Its funny that i had just called them on this...

The actual reason as to why a rallye 4 isnt approved as of yet is that they did not test and certify the streangth of the back seat taking that load at that angle....

they said that the rallye 3 was the only one that woud work and it needs to be anchored to the c pillar area.. or the bolt that hold the retractor for the shoulder belt.. its a little work, but it is doable )

i understand that for auto x the way the op did it is just fine, and will reap rewards as it will hold you in the seat as needed..... and the chances of "turtle up" or airbag / frontal collision etc etc etc....

For the track, i would have loved to use the rallye 4 secured to the seat belt anchors ( not the baby seat ) but alas they said no.

[fourtailpipes]

interesting... so presumably they've gotten over their suspicions that the shoulder belts were angled too steeply to prevent spinal compression in a frontal impact? that's the reasoning i was given back in 08 when i first got the e82. if the hurdle is only the strength of the rear anchors, i'd be really surprised to hear this particular chassis would have a lower capacity then any number of far older cars schroth signs off on with only marginally shallower shoulder belt angles.

[mattm]

Later models are not identified as available for installs so they absolve themselves of liability issues.

[lelikmed]

Originally Posted by mattm

yes correct, a Schroth Rally 3. Schroth does not make belts that will clip into our current seat belt latch mechanisms. I had the distinct inpression that it would be a few years before those come of age. My guess testing and liability issues are there too.

I am using the bolt in three point. The lap belts go into the rear seat track bolts and the strap out the back goes to the center tunnel latch. As I am only using it for autcross I should be okay with this set up and I am not planning to get it "turtle up." The directions deem to indicate that this might be okay (they're a little vague). Ideally they want it to go to the "C" pillar mount. These days there is a SRS/airbag there, so I am inclined not to mess with that part of the car. I did try a a "D" shaped clip used for mountain climbing, but the ones I have are a tad too large. I may wander to Eastern Moutain Sports and see if I can find one a little thinner. Then I can clip that to the child seat mount and allow for the belt to go straight back.

I may re-work the rear strap to go via the squirt seat mount but as noted it may not take the force as well as that seat buckle.

They recommend using C-pilar mount because that eliminate vertical seat compression. In case of collision the strap that goes behind would compress down the seat vertically and the seat may crack and cause spine injury. By using a C-pilar the eliminate a vertical load. You use a low mounting point, so you seat may compress...

[GaryS]

I'll add my update. I spoke with Joe Marko at HMS two weeks ago. He now recommends the Rallye 4 for 1 series, attached to rear seat lap belt mounts.

HMS had thought the Rallye 4 wouldn't work correctly in 1 series, but when they tested it, they found that it does work. I remembered that fourtailpipes and larryn had said the seat bottom has to be removed, but Joe said the seat bottom only needs to be removed for the install and can stay in place while the harness is being used.

To add some controversy, Joe also said the Rallye 4 is perfectly safe for street or HPDE on a road course. He said a harness bar is not needed, and there is no risk of spinal compression. But I can't argue about it, because I'm just repeating what he told me.

OTOH NASA and PCA will not allow it for HPDE. At least one club that I run with does allow it. I'm still checking with the others.

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I'll add my update. I spoke with Joe Marko at HMS two weeks ago. He now recommends the Rallye 4 for 1 series, attached to rear seat lap belt mounts.

HMS had thought the Rallye 4 wouldn't work correctly in 1 series, but when they tested it, they found that it does work. I remembered that fourtailpipes and larryn had said the seat bottom has to be removed, but Joe said the seat bottom only needs to be removed for the install and can stay in place while the harness is being used.

To add some controversy, Joe also said the Rallye 4 is perfectly safe for street or HPDE on a road course. He said a harness bar is not needed, and there is no risk of spinal compression. But I can't argue about it, because I'm just repeating what he told me.

OTOH NASA and PCA will not allow it for HPDE. At least one club that I run with does allow it. I'm still checking with the others.

That's good news.. ill check there web site to see if they have added it.

none the less, I asked the chief tech director at EMRA with whom i time trial, and he did not have a problem with it, although he did mention that a proper 5 point was the way to go as the driving skills advance and for sure if i ever wanted to be in there Race group..

Thanks for sharing Gary..