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      09-09-2018, 10:17 PM   #1
AndyW
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Time for brake upgrade...recommendations?

So, I took my calipers off and, despite use of Ti shims and brake cooling ducts, my piston boots melted and, I presume, caused the pistons to stick, which was what was giving me the sound I was hearing.











The good news is that the pistons hadn't cracked and they still move.

The bad (good?) news is...my track skills apparently now exceeds the capacity of my front brakes. For the record, my rotors still seem OK.

The way I see it is that I have four options:

1. Rebuild with OEM (seems pointless...will break those too in short order)

2. Get an upgraded rebuild kit F&R (RB or Turner...RB seems better) ~$700

3. Get the RB rebuild kit and upgraded rotors F&R ~$2200

4. Get a stoptech BBK F&R ~$5500 (really outside my budget right now)

I am leaning toward #3 but I suppose I could do it incrementally...#2 then #3 later. I just don't know how good the RB upgrade is...i.e. How much margin is added between each option. Will I run into the limit with the RB stuff next season? From what I have read, everyone is pleased with the Stoptech stuff so that is a no-brainer...except for price.

Anyway...I guess what I really need to know is...is the RB stuff worth pursuing...TIA.
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      09-09-2018, 10:53 PM   #2
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if you decide to keep the stock brakes I have a set of Pagid RSL1 front pads I'm trying to sell.


if you do keep it stock, I'd definitely go with the RB rebuild at minimum and add brakes ducts
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      09-10-2018, 08:18 AM   #3
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Option 5: upgrade to E90 335 brakes for ~$1100 ?
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      09-10-2018, 09:26 AM   #4
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I have heard that the Ti shims can cause excessive heat retention/inability of heat to move properly.
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      09-10-2018, 03:29 PM   #5
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I had same issue after Watkins Glen NY. I opted for the Racing Brake upgrade kit. I considered the 2 piece rotor kit as well but opted just for the caliper rebuild kit, pistons and high temp boots. It was a breeze to do on the workbench. I only have NACA ducting on my under-tray and no real ducts to the backing plates, was and still am running TI shims. Backing dust plates are folded in. Running PFC08's since the rebuild (several track events) and no issues with this setup. Had the opportunity to drive a fellow forum members track prepped 135i with full Stoptech kit and albeit his stops harder and shorter all day, the differences were not substantial. If you have the coin I'd go for the BBK but the rebuild has been good to me. Good luck!




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      09-10-2018, 10:22 PM   #6
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Thx, all. Think I am gonna try the RB kits. Got the old pistons out of the calipers tonight. The pistons actually didn't have any cracked ceramic but I think the melted dust boots gummed up the works...they were extremely sticky. In any case, all cleaned up now...just have to wait for the kit to arrive.
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      09-11-2018, 07:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R1wheelieforfun View Post
I had same issue after Watkins Glen NY. I opted for the Racing Brake upgrade kit. I considered the 2 piece rotor kit as well but opted just for the caliper rebuild kit, pistons and high temp boots. It was a breeze to do on the workbench. I only have NACA ducting on my under-tray and no real ducts to the backing plates, was and still am running TI shims. Backing dust plates are folded in. Running PFC08's since the rebuild (several track events) and no issues with this setup. Had the opportunity to drive a fellow forum members track prepped 135i with full Stoptech kit and albeit his stops harder and shorter all day, the differences were not substantial. If you have the coin I'd go for the BBK but the rebuild has been good to me. Good luck!
R1wheelieforfun Thanks for the pics, I am considering this rebuild as well. Do you have any pictures after a track weekend? I'd be interested to see if those silicone seals really hold up any better than the rubber.

Also, any chance you'll be at Watkins next week with GVC/Boston? I'll be there Sat/Sun in the advanced group.
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      09-11-2018, 12:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Thx, all. Think I am gonna try the RB kits. Got the old pistons out of the calipers tonight. The pistons actually didn't have any cracked ceramic but I think the melted dust boots gummed up the works...they were extremely sticky. In any case, all cleaned up now...just have to wait for the kit to arrive.
Hey Andy, I'm very interested in doing this same upgrade/maintenance over the Winter and am interested in your feedback both on the resulting braking ability and the ease of "DIY", so the more feedback and pix the better.

Are you planning on changing the color of the rotors since you'll have them apart? I was thinking about going red with mine, but everyone does that, even with low-performance OEM brakes so it's kind of lost it's meaning.
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      09-11-2018, 06:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPuehl View Post
Hey Andy, I'm very interested in doing this same upgrade/maintenance over the Winter and am interested in your feedback both on the resulting braking ability and the ease of "DIY", so the more feedback and pix the better.

Are you planning on changing the color of the rotors since you'll have them apart? I was thinking about going red with mine, but everyone does that, even with low-performance OEM brakes so it's kind of lost it's meaning.
Will do. So far, pretty easy as long as you know the "air compressor and a block of wood" trick...although that wasn't perfect either...I'll explain when I post pics...lol. Digging out the seal remainder in the groove was just annoying...but not hard. Biggest issue I have right now is that I didn't put a depressor on the brake pedal so my reservoir drained into the ziplocs I have on the brake lines...hope i can restore with a regular bleed (I have the tools). I have never done the INPA one (athough chadillac2000 has a post on it so I'll bug him if I find I need to do that. )

I am not planning on any repainting(and I assume you meant calipers?)...I am fine with the grey. Was toying with the idea of removing all the paint...better heat transfer to the air!
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      09-11-2018, 06:18 PM   #10
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Parts shipped today...get here Thursday! Looks like my 9/23 track day at the Ridge may be saved! JPuehl ...you should go...
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      09-11-2018, 06:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Parts shipped today...get here Thursday! Looks like my 9/23 track day at the Ridge may be saved! JPuehl ...you should go...
ugh! 9/23 is also the date of one of the few remaining autocross races in my area. Although if I miss that one there will be 2 others this season. hmm... I'll look at the schedule and get back to you.
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      09-11-2018, 07:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPuehl View Post
ugh! 9/23 is also the date of one of the few remaining autocross races in my area. Although if I miss that one there will be 2 others this season. hmm... I'll look at the schedule and get back to you.
Well, it's a BMW HPDE so if you haven't done the CCC then your choice is easy! .
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      09-11-2018, 08:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amg6975 View Post
Option 5: upgrade to E90 335 brakes for ~$1100 ?
I did find some threads on that. Interesting idea, Thx.
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      09-11-2018, 08:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
I have heard that the Ti shims can cause excessive heat retention/inability of heat to move properly.
True, but not an issue in this case: They do cause more heat to be retained in the *pad*. People that complain about them typically had pad glazing or disintegration issues. They were actually helping limit the heat transfer to the pistons...and it was still too much for the boots...lol.
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      09-11-2018, 08:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
True, but not an issue in this case: They do cause more heat to be retained in the *pad*. People that complain about them typically had pad glazing or disintegration issues. They were actually helping limit the heat transfer to the pistons...and it was still too much for the boots...lol.
Ah. Gotcha. That was exactly what carbotech told me when I asked about running them. They advised against as it could cause to much heat build up in the pad and cause problems. Possibly even warp the backing material.
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      09-12-2018, 08:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by amg6975 View Post
Option 5: upgrade to E90 335 brakes for ~$1100 ?
I did find some threads on that. Interesting idea, Thx.
I was wondering about this "upgrade" myself since I mainly autocross my car. Recently I drove a friend's E92 M3 with the same 335 brakes mentioned and his car stopped just as good as mine. This might be a better swap than fixing the issues with the 6 piston calipers?
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      09-12-2018, 09:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Well, it's a BMW HPDE so if you haven't done the CCC then your choice is easy! .
And it costs $290 for the event. I think I'll stick with the $35 autocross on that day. I'll check The Ridge's schedule and look for an event put on by a club/group that has a less expensive entry cost.
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      09-12-2018, 12:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crowtrobot View Post
R1wheelieforfun Thanks for the pics, I am considering this rebuild as well. Do you have any pictures after a track weekend? I'd be interested to see if those silicone seals really hold up any better than the rubber.

Also, any chance you'll be at Watkins next week with GVC/Boston? I'll be there Sat/Sun in the advanced group.
I don't have any pics from after track use, but I have inspected them after about every track event. High temp boots and pistons both are holding up great. I'm super bummed not making it to The Glen this year, I was hoping to run with COM there these last 2 days this week but seems I have blown a turbo so I'm benched for the season

Maybe I'll see you out there next year!
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      09-12-2018, 07:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPuehl View Post
And it costs $290 for the event. I think I'll stick with the $35 autocross on that day. I'll check The Ridge's schedule and look for an event put on by a club/group that has a less expensive entry cost.
True! But you do get a full time instructor and it's on a legit track. But I do get your point. I didn't realize autoX was that inexpensive...maybe I should go to *your* next event!
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      09-14-2018, 06:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPuehl View Post
And it costs $290 for the event. I think I'll stick with the $35 autocross on that day. I'll check The Ridge's schedule and look for an event put on by a club/group that has a less expensive entry cost.
True! But you do get a full time instructor and it's on a legit track. But I do get your point. I didn't realize autoX was that inexpensive...maybe I should go to *your* next event!
That would be awesome. The next event in Bremerton is 9/23, I do the AM session. Check out BSCC.net for info.
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      09-14-2018, 07:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
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That would be awesome. The next event in Bremerton is 9/23, I do the AM session. Check out BSCC.net for info.
I am already committed to the track day on the 23rd. I definitely want to do some Auto-X events next year. I'll hit you up in the Spring to be my guide.
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      09-14-2018, 11:33 PM   #22
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So, I replaced the front pistons. Pretty straightforward. Only difficult part was getting the original pistons out. I found a video showing a "piece of wood" trick where you take a short piece of 2x4 and use it block the pistons while you use air in the brake line connection to force them out. This worked but since a number of them were really sticky, I couldn't really get all of them out because once you remove the block of wood (after all pistons are about 3/4 of the way out), once the most slippery piston pops, you have to manually try to pull or pry the pistons out. I ended up using an adjustable tie-wrap method to put a strong tie wrap around each piston and use air to get them all extended as far as possible.


(this picture shown with new pistons...this technique was also good for testing the new seals and pistons)

This made removing them by hand easy. The stock pistons actually still looked OK.



Once the pistons were out I used a hook tool to scoop the old seals out. They were still OK.



Then came the brake cleaner and scrubbing/cleaning. And more cleaning. And a lot of shop towels and paper towels. Since I got the silicone dust boots I wanted to be absolutely sure no residual brake fluid existed.

Here are a couple pics of the RacingBrakes pistons and dust boots. Seem to be really high quality and well packed. Shipped quickly too.





Instructions were on one page and were well written and easy to follow.

Basically you use the brake grease they give you to grease up the seals, install the seals, then put the dust boots on the pistons and install the pistons. I also put a little grease around the pistons so they slid in smoothly.

Here they are installed. Similar to R1wheelieforfun pics...although I think he got his calipers cleaner!



Here is a video of using air and the adjustable tie wraps to test the pistons and seals:



The hissing is from the air tool end, not the pistons. They were all sealed well.

Once that is done it is a straightforward path: install pads, reconnect brake line and caliper, attach caliper, torque everything up, bleed brakes.

So the front is done. Will test drive tomorrow and report back. If I can find some Motul 660 locally I'll do the rears, otherwise will defer until I have more replacement fluid.
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