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      08-02-2019, 11:14 PM   #1
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Concerns about Apple’s T2 chip used in recent Macs and MacBooks

I've been following Louis Rossman on his Youtube channel concerning the various things Apple has been doing with their products. The implementation of the T2 chip in recent Apple products should have all who like to buy the latest from Apple very concerned. I'll just let the video speak for itself.

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      08-02-2019, 11:47 PM   #2
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Not a cult member but thanks for heads up been saying this shit for years
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      08-03-2019, 01:37 AM   #3
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      08-03-2019, 08:08 AM   #4
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What's the concern? From his repair perspective, it is obviously a problem to not be able to swap T2 chips (which handle the encryption IIRC) or download data from the soldered SSD. From a privacy perspective, it means that snooping TSA agents and state-sponsored computer forensics experts cannot gain warrantless access to your data by taking the machine apart and swapping components. Sounds like a desirable feature to me!

I have nothing to hide, but you can bet that every computer and smartphone that I own has hard drive encryption and every other security feature enabled, and all backups are encrypted to keep prying eyes out.....
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      08-03-2019, 08:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
What's the concern? From his repair perspective, it is obviously a problem to not be able to swap T2 chips (which handle the encryption IIRC) or download data from the soldered SSD. From a privacy perspective, it means that snooping TSA agents and state-sponsored computer forensics experts cannot gain warrantless access to your data by taking the machine apart and swapping components. Sounds like a desirable feature to me!

I have nothing to hide, but you can bet that every computer and smartphone that I own has hard drive encryption and every other security feature enabled, and all backups are encrypted to keep prying eyes out.....
TPM has been used on the PC side for years to facilitate encryption. Yet the use of TPM doesn't lock out a repair shop's ability to repair any component of said PC. The use of the T2 chip prevents anyone but Apple to repair anything that is equipped with said chip. I guess you're ok with that.

There's been a big movement among independent repair shops protesting Apple's push to monopolize and control repairs of their products. It's the whole right to repair initiative. Apple has gone through great lengths to censor information on their support forums in regards to the ability to recover data from their iPhones due to physical or water damage. If you don't believe me, look up Jessa Jones of iPad rehab to see how she was banned from telling the truth on Apple's support forum.

Getting back to the video, Louis profiled a customer who was denied warranty coverage due to supposed water damage. This customer is now screwed. And as Louis points out the new Macbooks don't have the ability to tap into the board to at least recover any data from the SOLDERED on board SSD. There's a whole list of things Apple has done to make it increasingly more difficult to have third party repairs done on their products. You get that flavor if you've watched the video to the end.

If you doubt Louis' integrity and expertise in this area, he was called up as an expert witness by the Norwegian courts in a case where Apple was suing an independent repair shop for using counterfeit parts. You can see the video he put up on Youtube of the deposition he did for the court.

Put it simply, how many of you all would be ok if BMW put in a special encryption protocol to only allow their authorized dealerships to plug into the DME to do diagnostics of the computer?
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      08-03-2019, 09:56 AM   #6
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Without getting too technical and maybe i am in the minority but who in the past 5 to 10 years has repaired their own laptop? 95% of the time it's more expensive to repair than to just get a new laptop and with the tech advancement being as fast as it is; it makes even less sense to repair. As far as Macbooks are concerned, they are incredible reliable and with the 3 that I've had; nothing hardware related has ever gone wrong... and if it did, I still wouldn't want anyone else other than apple repairing it... seems like a non issue to me.

I've repaired my own iphones and its such a hassle that I don't think I would ever do it again.
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      08-03-2019, 10:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Without getting too technical and maybe i am in the minority but who in the past 5 to 10 years has repaired their own laptop? 95% of the time it's more expensive to repair than to just get a new laptop and with the tech advancement being as fast as it is; it makes even less sense to repair. As far as Macbooks are concerned, they are incredible reliable and with the 3 that I've had; nothing hardware related has ever gone wrong... and if it did, I still wouldn't want anyone else other than apple repairing it... seems like a non issue to me.

I've repaired my own iphones and its such a hassle that I don't think I would ever do it again.
Your experience is all anecdotal. If what you say is true, shops such as Louis Rossmann and Jessa Jones wouldn't be in business nor thriving in this climate. Fact remains that Apple charges top dollar for their hardware and it makes repair shops a viable option. Especially when many of the fixes Louis shows on his Youtube channel are pretty trivial once you see him do it and are failures due to piss poor design. If you doubt anything about what I'm saying, go on his Youtube channel and look through the myriad number of videos where he actually repairs broken laptops in real time.

As far as reliable, even Apple has put out a bulletin about the keyboards used on recent Macbooks. As Louis points out Apple knows this is a problem and is still using this defective part on currently shipping product.
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      08-03-2019, 10:29 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Your experience is all anecdotal. If what you say is true, shops such as Louis Rossmann and Jessa Jones wouldn't be in business nor thriving in this climate. Fact remains that Apple charges top dollar for their hardware and it makes repair shops a viable option. Especially when many of the fixes Louis shows on his Youtube channel are pretty trivial once you see him do it and are failures due to piss poor design. If you doubt anything about what I'm saying, go on his Youtube channel and look through the myriad number of videos where he actually repairs broken laptops in real time.

As far as reliable, even Apple has put out a bulletin about the keyboards used on recent Macbooks. As Louis points out Apple knows this is a problem and is still using this defective part on currently shipping product.
I am not questioning what you are seeing, I simply think that aftermarket repair business for computer stores is a dying business... just like computer stores in general. Most people order their computers online (apple stores excluded as they have offered a 1 in 1 service experience where everything can be done) and everything that goes with it follows a new repair trend as well.... I don't remember anyone that went to BestBuy to buy a computer in the recent years; same with just going to a random repairman... i get what you are saying, I just do not believe 95% of people will care... and well that's enough for any of this to not matter.
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      08-03-2019, 11:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I am not questioning what you are seeing, I simply think that aftermarket repair business for computer stores is a dying business... just like computer stores in general. Most people order their computers online (apple stores excluded as they have offered a 1 in 1 service experience where everything can be done) and everything that goes with it follows a new repair trend as well.... I don't remember anyone that went to BestBuy to buy a computer in the recent years; same with just going to a random repairman... i get what you are saying, I just do not believe 95% of people will care... and well that's enough for any of this to not matter.
I generally agree with you. As I'm in the IT business. I used to work for a small computer repair shop in high school all the way up to college. I know what you're saying with how many computers are becoming throw away items. But when you have a company which does things to prevent simple repairs to be done. Control the supply chain to prevent repair shops from getting said parts. This should tell you something.

I go back to Jessa Jones. She was on Apple's support forums refuting comments by Apple employees that data recovery was not possible. She provided valid responses without pushing her own business. Apple's response was to remove her posts and then ultimately banning her. Everyone should have a problem with a company which out right lies about not being able to do any data recovery on damaged iPhones.

As far as the 95% figure, unfortunately, I feel you're right because of the blind loyalty many Apple consumers have for this company.
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      08-03-2019, 11:58 AM   #10
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Love me some Apple. Every minute at work on a shitty Dell that gets warrantied every three or four months reminds me how much better my twelve year old, problem free iMac really is. About time to send this to my dad and buy another.

And MS did me a solid with Office 365, now I don't even have compatibility issues with Excel macros.
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      08-03-2019, 12:57 PM   #11
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      08-03-2019, 01:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Your experience is all anecdotal. If what you say is true, shops such as Louis Rossmann and Jessa Jones wouldn't be in business nor thriving in this climate. Fact remains that Apple charges top dollar for their hardware and it makes repair shops a viable option. Especially when many of the fixes Louis shows on his Youtube channel are pretty trivial once you see him do it and are failures due to piss poor design. If you doubt anything about what I'm saying, go on his Youtube channel and look through the myriad number of videos where he actually repairs broken laptops in real time.

As far as reliable, even Apple has put out a bulletin about the keyboards used on recent Macbooks. As Louis points out Apple knows this is a problem and is still using this defective part on currently shipping product.
You have access to their financials to know they are “thriving?”

Apple sells almost 20M Macs per year, so things are going to fail. Apple products have industry leading reliability.

Louis is a known Apple hater, which is fine, but he has his own bias.

What people forget is Apple is selling software and the entire ecosystem as much as the hardware. Just because you can get a Windows laptop for cheaper, doesn’t mean you want the Windows experience. Comparable hardware isn’t the point. People want the Apple experience because the software is what you experience when you interact with the hardware.

There are also no alternative manufacturers that make anything more reliable. Dell? HP? Samsung? Joke quality and they all run Windows.
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      08-03-2019, 01:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
Apple sells almost 20M Macs per year, so things are going to fail. Apple products have industry leading reliability.
Industry leader in reliability. Gotcha. Lets just forget that they've been releasing laptops with the same keyboard problem since 2015. Yep. Industry leader. Reliability. Nailed it.
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      08-03-2019, 01:20 PM   #14
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Industry leader in reliability. Gotcha. Lets just forget that they've been releasing laptops with the same keyboard problem since 2015. Yep. Industry leader. Reliability. Nailed it.
You have the failure rates? Apple isn’t stupid. They are the most profitable company in the world.

If there were any major issue, they would have redesigned. Sure, there are some with issues, but evidently not enough to completely redesign the keyboards.

They are leaders in reliability. You want to comment who you think is the leader? Survey after survey says Apple.

You are having the same problem as people on the Apple forums. You see some people complaining about keyboards and automatically say design flaw. Just like the bent iPad Pros. Someone purposely bends it in half and some people say design flaw.

iPad and Mac just put up 8% and 11% growth, respectively.,.again proving people are willing to spend more for Apple products.
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      08-03-2019, 01:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
The use of the T2 chip prevents anyone but Apple to repair anything that is equipped with said chip. I guess you're ok with that.
If it also means that my privacy is protected from a warrantless search, then I'm a huge fan of Apple's use of the "secure enclave" chip and would put it on my must-have feature list!

Quote:
And as Louis points out the new Macbooks don't have the ability to tap into the board to at least recover any data from the SOLDERED on board SSD.
Again, this prevents a warrantless download of the SSD contents. I applaud Apple for doing it, and wonder why the other notebook vendors aren't following suit? You know they are doing a good job when the feds are begging for legislation to install back-doors for "law enforcement" purposes.

Quote:
You get that flavor if you've watched the video to the end.
I watched every second of the video, right down to the over-fluxed solder job repair they showed under the magnifier.

Quote:
Put it simply, how many of you all would be ok if BMW put in a special encryption protocol to only allow their authorized dealerships to plug into the DME to do diagnostics of the computer?
Coming from another marque where diagnostic information is only published in their dealership scan tools tethered to their corporate mothership's guided fault finding system, I have already seen the future. I'm actually quite shocked that BMW seems to turn a blind eye to rampant software piracy and publication of their technical/service data. In any case, most independent mechanics that I know can barely use an OBD-II scan tool to throw parts at codes, and the information provided by that legislated standard seems to be adequate for the past 22 years.

Back in the 1970's, the big whine was from gas station mechanics crying that electronic ignition was evil because they only knew breaker points. The 1980's were all gas station mechanics complaining about the complexity of fuel injection. Fast forward to 2019, and tell me where all of the gas station mechanics went to? Yup, extinct like the dinosaur, replaced with convenience stores and lotto terminals. (The gas stations themselves will be going next, and I can say that I haven't touched a fuel pump nozzle since last April when I added the i3 BEV to our motor pool.)

Looking at tech trends like smart watches, you can see everything being miniaturized down onto a single chip die. Unfortunately as the carburetor and points ignition mechanics found out, the technological improvements have made them obsolete...casualties of miniaturization and innovation.....
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      08-03-2019, 01:40 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
There are also no alternative manufacturers that make anything more reliable. Dell? HP? Samsung? Joke quality and they all run Windows.
You forgot Lenovo, and whatever spyware the Chinese bundle into their systems.....
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      08-03-2019, 01:46 PM   #17
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Thanks for the heads up, I've owned nothing but Apple products for twenty-five years. It hasn't been without it's issues but they've always made me happy. I think that I'd suggest to the owner of that MBP to take the motherboard into an Apple Store, talk to a Manager and make a little scene. I did just that a few years ago with a MBP and ended up leaving with a new one. There is also Customer Relations at the Corporate level that I've dealt with and was satisfied.
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      08-03-2019, 04:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
You have the failure rates? Apple isn’t stupid. They are the most profitable company in the world.

If there were any major issue, they would have redesigned. Sure, there are some with issues, but evidently not enough to completely redesign the keyboards.

They are leaders in reliability. You want to comment who you think is the leader? Survey after survey says Apple.

You are having the same problem as people on the Apple forums. You see some people complaining about keyboards and automatically say design flaw. Just like the bent iPad Pros. Someone purposely bends it in half and some people say design flaw.

iPad and Mac just put up 8% and 11% growth, respectively.,.again proving people are willing to spend more for Apple products.
30%

https://www.notebookcheck.net/A-work....415595.0.html

You're right; Apple isn't stupid. It's their customers. Apple is immoral. They know there's a problem with their hardware failing pre-maturely and are choosing not to do anything about it because with tactics like this, they can force their repeat customers into buying a new device rather than repairing it. Why fix a fault that can save their customers money when they can take advantage of it and double dip?

You're saying that people with multiple different years of macbook with the same keyboard experiencing failures is a coincidence or they're lying? Because people have nothing better to do than cook up stories to tarnish the reputation of your beloved brand.

So the iPad and Mac is showing sales growth, big deal? What the hell does that prove?

Last edited by Banana Hammock; 08-03-2019 at 04:31 PM..
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      08-03-2019, 06:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
You have access to their financials to know they are “thriving?”

Apple sells almost 20M Macs per year, so things are going to fail. Apple products have industry leading reliability.

Louis is a known Apple hater, which is fine, but he has his own bias.

What people forget is Apple is selling software and the entire ecosystem as much as the hardware. Just because you can get a Windows laptop for cheaper, doesn’t mean you want the Windows experience. Comparable hardware isn’t the point. People want the Apple experience because the software is what you experience when you interact with the hardware.

There are also no alternative manufacturers that make anything more reliable. Dell? HP? Samsung? Joke quality and they all run Windows.
And here we go with the fanboyism. Explain Jessa Jones then. And yes, he's doing just fine. Moved to a new location and has been in business for years. As a small business to survive past the first couple of years says something.

Apple could easily go towards the licensing model for their software but chose to pin hardware as how they make their money. Everyone is with any understanding of how to survive into the forseeable future will know trying to exist solely on hardware is a losing proposition.

You've got your head up Apple so much you don't even see that I didn't start off the thread with reliability. It's about Apple restricting an owner of an Apple product to be able to repair their own product without Apple being the sole provider of such services. You'd agree you'd have a problem if you can't take your car to an independent shop for repairs because the manufacturer of the car makes it impossible to do so. This is what Apple is doing. And if you say otherwise, you're being disingenuous.
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      08-03-2019, 06:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
If it also means that my privacy is protected from a warrantless search, then I'm a huge fan of Apple's use of the "secure enclave" chip and would put it on my must-have feature list!



Again, this prevents a warrantless download of the SSD contents. I applaud Apple for doing it, and wonder why the other notebook vendors aren't following suit? You know they are doing a good job when the feds are begging for legislation to install back-doors for "law enforcement" purposes.



I watched every second of the video, right down to the over-fluxed solder job repair they showed under the magnifier.



Coming from another marque where diagnostic information is only published in their dealership scan tools tethered to their corporate mothership's guided fault finding system, I have already seen the future. I'm actually quite shocked that BMW seems to turn a blind eye to rampant software piracy and publication of their technical/service data. In any case, most independent mechanics that I know can barely use an OBD-II scan tool to throw parts at codes, and the information provided by that legislated standard seems to be adequate for the past 22 years.

Back in the 1970's, the big whine was from gas station mechanics crying that electronic ignition was evil because they only knew breaker points. The 1980's were all gas station mechanics complaining about the complexity of fuel injection. Fast forward to 2019, and tell me where all of the gas station mechanics went to? Yup, extinct like the dinosaur, replaced with convenience stores and lotto terminals. (The gas stations themselves will be going next, and I can say that I haven't touched a fuel pump nozzle since last April when I added the i3 BEV to our motor pool.)

Looking at tech trends like smart watches, you can see everything being miniaturized down onto a single chip die. Unfortunately as the carburetor and points ignition mechanics found out, the technological improvements have made them obsolete...casualties of miniaturization and innovation.....
PCs have been able to secure data contents without resorting to a total lock down of being able to repair any part of the hardware of said PC using TPM. So your argument about better security with the T2 hold zero water.

If you're that paranoid about the man seizing your data, there are other methods out there to include TPM which won't prevent you from doing any repairs on your own computer.
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      08-03-2019, 06:46 PM   #21
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I don't know about you guys but I've had 3 macbooks, my parents have had 2 and they all still work and have never failed outside of battery replacements after 1000+ cycles... our DELL, HP, Sony and Lenovo laptops... literal trash can material after 2-3 years... Iphones I would argue are a little less reliable but that's because of how much a phone is used daily... so akin to Samsung in that regard.
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      08-03-2019, 07:10 PM   #22
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imho the worst of all was HP... that company should have made toilet seats instead of anything electronic related... from laptops, to pc's to printers to digital cameras, it ALL failed... i kid you not; I didn't have anything from HP that worked for more than a year properly... a few items failed on day 1.
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