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      08-21-2011, 06:44 PM   #45
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I definitely plan on filing a claim if and when we get into the settlement process or a buyback. Again, I'm trying to be patient and not involve a lawyer or say "Lemon Law" since that ends any chance of a loaner or direct negotiation between BMW and myself. Based on the Lemon Laws in SC, I've got a right to have every payment I've made thus far plus damages and attorney's fees. You think that would be incentive enough to get this show on the road.
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      08-22-2011, 08:04 PM   #46
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The decision to buy back came down today. The dealer has already picked up the car and started a search for a replacement. They were doing their damnedest to find something before I leave tomorrow, but it just couldn't happen. That's OK as I'd rather not rush into a car I wasn't totally happy with just to have a replacement.

I was rather surprised to find out that pretty much every 2012 135i that has arrived at any dealer within the surrounding states was ordered with DCT. I'm going with a straight 6-sp on the next car. Now that they have a little over a month, it looks like they're trying to designate a car that is currently in production or allow me to order a car to spec. I'll keep you guys updated on whatever happens.

As frustrated as I was with how this car turned out, I have to say I was really upset to see it go down my street for the last time
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      08-22-2011, 08:20 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by BuddhaPilot View Post
The decision to buy back came down today. The dealer has already picked up the car and started a search for a replacement. They were doing their damnedest to find something before I leave tomorrow, but it just couldn't happen. That's OK as I'd rather not rush into a car I wasn't totally happy with just to have a replacement.

I was rather surprised to find out that pretty much every 2012 135i that has arrived at any dealer within the surrounding states was ordered with DCT. I'm going with a straight 6-sp on the next car. Now that they have a little over a month, it looks like they're trying to designate a car that is currently in production or allow me to order a car to spec. I'll keep you guys updated on whatever happens.

As frustrated as I was with how this car turned out, I have to say I was really upset to see it go down my street for the last time
Great. It's good to hear it finally worked to YOUR benefit, as it should.

This sucks though for those of us who are seriously considering a DCT BMW. My options for next year are a 135i DCT or Audi TT DSG.
I hope BMW gets a handle on what the heck is going on with their DCT.
Looks like I may go back to Audi for my next car, and then back to BMW once they get things worked out.
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      08-23-2011, 09:23 PM   #48
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Great. It's good to hear it finally worked to YOUR benefit, as it should.

This sucks though for those of us who are seriously considering a DCT BMW. My options for next year are a 135i DCT or Audi TT DSG.
I hope BMW gets a handle on what the heck is going on with their DCT.
Looks like I may go back to Audi for my next car, and then back to BMW once they get things worked out.
My DCTer rocks. BMW DCT has been proven reliable, don't make decision based on extremely small statistic. And Please don't go Vdub, or you'll be sorry with more headaches. There is a reason why BMW outsell Audi 5 to 1.
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      08-23-2011, 09:36 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
My DCTer rocks. BMW DCT has been proven reliable, don't make decision based on extremely small statistic. And Please don't go Vdub, or you'll be sorry with more headaches. There is a reason why BMW outsell Audi 5 to 1.
"2" Again, I'll state that I believe what has manifested in my 135i may be a completely isolated issue. No idea until they actually find what is defective, but I've lost my patience with that particular car and no longer had any confidence in it. I found myself way too on edge wondering what it might do next, especially after the engineers say that they hadn't seen this sort of problem in the 1 series... yet. The recommended fix was essentially throwing an array of electrical and mechanical components and reprogramming the entire car at the same time. Wasn't comfortable with that outcome, made my case why, and it was understood.

I still have a very strong loyalty to BMW as I've exclusively owned and driven a BMW product for going on 10 years now. There will be another one in the driveway soon, but this one will be a standard manual tranny.
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      08-26-2011, 11:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
My DCTer rocks. BMW DCT has been proven reliable, don't make decision based on extremely small statistic. And Please don't go Vdub, or you'll be sorry with more headaches. There is a reason why BMW outsell Audi 5 to 1.
I agree.
Trust me, I'm not one to jump to final conclusion based on a few bad apples, as anything mechanical can break.
I was a long hold out on the HPFP too, early on.
But, over time it proved to be a larger problem than some of us hoped it wouldn't be.

135i DCT vert is not off my list.
My biggest concern is that the new 1/2 series won't be here by the time I need to order, which will be around May/June of 2012.
The DCT question, if there even is one, should be sorted by then.

I don't share your view on VW/Audi.
My 2006 A4 was excellent. No more or less issues than with my 2003 325i sport, or 2009 135i. I didn't have anything like the HPFP issue, but my 135i HPFP didn't fail either. I did get the recall though.

As far as who outsells who, well, VW/Audi outsell BMW by a good margin world wide. Strictly Audi vs BMW, BMW leads, 1.22 million vs 1.09 for Audi. Globally BMW and Audi aren't too far apart.
I don't buy a car based on who has more sales anyway.
If anything an Audi is more unique in the US.

In the US, yes it's a different story, but there is a different reason than reliability in my view, as neither brand is ranked highly in terms of reliability.
I think the main reason why BMW outsells Audi in the states is due to BMW's excellent leasing programs, which are quite a bit better than Audi.

The Audi I'm considering is the TT or the A5.
I like the TT much more than the Z4.
Also, I like the A5 much more than the 3 coupe.
But, the pricing is crazy for the A5. Couple that with the leasing programs and the A5 is difficult competitor for the 3 coupe.
So, it's a harder sell for Audi given that about half of the sales for these car brands is a lease, and it's an even harder buyer choice for a loan purchase.

Last edited by RPM90; 08-26-2011 at 11:35 PM..
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      08-26-2011, 11:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BuddhaPilot View Post
"2" Again, I'll state that I believe what has manifested in my 135i may be a completely isolated issue. No idea until they actually find what is defective, but I've lost my patience with that particular car and no longer had any confidence in it. I found myself way too on edge wondering what it might do next, especially after the engineers say that they hadn't seen this sort of problem in the 1 series... yet. The recommended fix was essentially throwing an array of electrical and mechanical components and reprogramming the entire car at the same time. Wasn't comfortable with that outcome, made my case why, and it was understood.

I still have a very strong loyalty to BMW as I've exclusively owned and driven a BMW product for going on 10 years now. There will be another one in the driveway soon, but this one will be a standard manual tranny.
It isn't just your DCT.
There are a number of DCT drivers on this board that have posted issues with their DCT, mainly dealing with how the DCT behaves and performs.

It's one thing to have mechanical break downs, but it's another question on how it actually performs.
Most love how their DCT performs, but there are a number who don't like how it feels, or that it shifts oddly, or that stop and go is jerky.
That is what has me concerned.
I'm sure BMW is working on how to sort it out.
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      08-26-2011, 11:34 PM   #52
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The DCT tranny has been virtually problem free for every owner..... I drive the shit out of mine everyday with ZERO problems.
"Virtually"?

I don't know about every owner. I read the same threads you do, and I wouldn't say what you did.
It's not a majority, nor a clear minority of owners who have expressed concern over their DCT. But, there are owners that are not pleased or as happy as the majority.

It's not an insult nor is it personal to question and consider that maybe something isn't quite right, or that it needs some work to get better consistency.

I'm a fan of BMW too, I've got a 135i and I want another one next year with DCT. So I have to consider and take seriously those who aren't happy with their trans and why.
I won't buy it just because it's a BMW. I want one because I like how BMW engineers their cars and how much fun and connection they build into them. I don't fit the "fan boy" profile I guess, but I am a fan.
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      08-27-2011, 12:38 PM   #53
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but there are a number who don't like how it feels, or that it shifts oddly, or that stop and go is jerky.
That is what has me concerned.
I wouldn't be.
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      08-27-2011, 01:11 PM   #54
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I wouldn't be.
I would tend to agree. The DCT drives differently from a stick or an automatic... but some people expect it to behave just like the latter. It's a fundamentally different technology, and you can't get the relative smoothness of an automatic without a power-sapping torque converter. No thanks, I'd rather have a clutch, even if it's being actuated by a computer instead of my left foot.

My limited time in a DCT has told me that there is a certain jerkiness to the shifting... but it's less than you'd get even with an average stick driver. The only time I've ever had a smooth ride with a stick driver was when said driver happened to be a professional driver who literally did it for a living. Very few people can drive that well, but the DCT is in my opinion a good second place to that.

Maybe my opinion will change when I've put a couple thousand miles on a car with a DCT (I'll let you know around Christmas...) but at the moment I find the performance and behaviour of a DCT quite acceptable considering its performance aspirations. Remember, this isn't Volkswagen's DSG which is tuned for comfort and does drive an awful lot like an automatic (at the expense of slipping the clutch a LOT!). This is a performance transmission that's surprisingly similar to the one in BMW's high performance M cars.
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      08-27-2011, 02:15 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinister Crayon View Post
I would tend to agree. The DCT drives differently from a stick or an automatic... but some people expect it to behave just like the latter. It's a fundamentally different technology, and you can't get the relative smoothness of an automatic without a power-sapping torque converter. No thanks, I'd rather have a clutch, even if it's being actuated by a computer instead of my left foot.

My limited time in a DCT has told me that there is a certain jerkiness to the shifting... but it's less than you'd get even with an average stick driver. The only time I've ever had a smooth ride with a stick driver was when said driver happened to be a professional driver who literally did it for a living. Very few people can drive that well, but the DCT is in my opinion a good second place to that.

Maybe my opinion will change when I've put a couple thousand miles on a car with a DCT (I'll let you know around Christmas...) but at the moment I find the performance and behaviour of a DCT quite acceptable considering its performance aspirations. Remember, this isn't Volkswagen's DSG which is tuned for comfort and does drive an awful lot like an automatic (at the expense of slipping the clutch a LOT!). This is a performance transmission that's surprisingly similar to the one in BMW's high performance M cars.

It does seem to drive differently, but I wouldn't say that it's jerkier than a "normal" automatic. In D mode under casual driving conditions it actually seems smoother to me than most makers' automatics (but I'm new to BMW, so readers should take that into consideration). Under power you can make it jerk a little.

What stunned me the most is the varied behavior of the different modes. Stomp on it D mode and it ramps slowly up through the entire RPM range like a normal automatic. Stomp on it in S mode and it's a whole different ballgame -- it knows it can shift quickly, so it stays within the optimum power band, zipping rapidly through the available gears instead. That shift is so fast that it can almost behave like a CVT, keeping the engine near its optimal output.

You can't do that with a manual or a regular automatic. DCT is better.

As is pointed out above, these VW comparisons (or GM's upcoming low-end implementations) are irrelevant -- those manufacturers are addressing different transmission requirements with those electronic approaches, so it's apples and oranges.

The future of sport performance is electronic transmission. Five years from now I'll be surprised if there are half as many manual transmissions available for purchase. I'd put money on the Corvette losing its manual transmission option by 2019. Ferrari already has -- you can't buy a manual transmission for a 458 Italia. You get DCT or you find a Lamborghini dealer.

I also wonder if pending EPA regulations might have an impact here. I don't know enough about the impact of transmission on fuel efficiency, but it seems to me that if a performance car is close to the desired goal but not quite there, the manufacturer could slip in a "magic EPA mode" with half the power, and owners can just ignore the mode. Electronics for the win.
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      08-27-2011, 05:49 PM   #56
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The future of sport performance is electronic transmission. Five years from now I'll be surprised if there are half as many manual transmissions available for purchase. I'd put money on the Corvette losing its manual transmission option by 2019. Ferrari already has -- you can't buy a manual transmission for a 458 Italia. You get DCT or you find a Lamborghini dealer.

I also wonder if pending EPA regulations might have an impact here. I don't know enough about the impact of transmission on fuel efficiency, but it seems to me that if a performance car is close to the desired goal but not quite there, the manufacturer could slip in a "magic EPA mode" with half the power, and owners can just ignore the mode. Electronics for the win.
It's less to do with emissions and more to do with physics.

We're basically reaching the limit of what can be done with a classic clutch. As engine power increases, so the clutch needs to be tighter. As a result, it takes more force to actuate a clutch for a more powerful engine. Now, of course modern clutches are hydraulically assisted, and as such they can multiply the force your left foot can apply to actuate a much heavier clutch. However, there's a limit. Unless materials technology takes a quantum leap in the next few years, the amount of boost required to actuate a clutch with high powered engines while retaining some semblance of longevity is going to almost completely eliminate clutch feedback and feel. Already modern clutches are pretty numb compared to their historical counterparts.

Lambo does it by having a clutch that's expected to last far less than the 100,000 miles that most manufacturers aim for. Unless you are truly a wizard with the clutch pedal, I'd be surprised if modern Lambos clutches will last more than 50,000 miles. And most people are not a wizard with the clutch despite what they might think... I have driven manual cars for 20 years and even I felt humbled when I rode with a professional driver and he showed me all the mistakes I was making.

Of course, it's moot these days because I am being forced into a DCT... getting old sucks... getting old combined with ancient soccer injuries coming back to haunt me suck doubly so
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      08-27-2011, 07:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinister Crayon View Post
We're basically reaching the limit of what can be done with a classic clutch. As engine power increases, so the clutch needs to be tighter. As a result, it takes more force to actuate a clutch for a more powerful engine. Now, of course modern clutches are hydraulically assisted, and as such they can multiply the force your left foot can apply to actuate a much heavier clutch. However, there's a limit. Unless materials technology takes a quantum leap in the next few years, the amount of boost required to actuate a clutch with high powered engines while retaining some semblance of longevity is going to almost completely eliminate clutch feedback and feel. Already modern clutches are pretty numb compared to their historical counterparts.
That's interesting -- I had no idea. Thanks for the insight.


Quote:
And most people are not a wizard with the clutch despite what they might think... I have driven manual cars for 20 years and even I felt humbled when I rode with a professional driver and he showed me all the mistakes I was making.
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      08-27-2011, 07:49 PM   #58
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Quote:
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....We're basically reaching the limit of what can be done with a classic clutch. As engine power increases, so the clutch needs to be tighter....
The most common transmission in the specialised supercars with more than 1000bhp are 6-speed manuals with clutches, so we should be OK for a while:

http://www.driving.ca/most+powerful+...836/story.html

If you search each car in the list, you will find the majority have 6-speed manuals.
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      08-28-2011, 09:16 AM   #59
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The most common transmission in the specialised supercars with more than 1000bhp are 6-speed manuals with clutches, so we should be OK for a while:

http://www.driving.ca/most+powerful+...836/story.html

If you search each car in the list, you will find the majority have 6-speed manuals.
And do you know what the life expectancy of the clutch in those cars is? You're talking about cars that in general are driven so little that their oil must be changed on a specific time schedule rather than mileage schedule. The average supercar is probably driven less than 3000 miles in a year.

Besides, have you ever actually driven one? I have driven one such example with around 800 horsepower and the clutch was so incredibly numb that properly modulating the clutch was a chore. Apart from the ability to go stupidly fast in short order, I'd never really want to drive one of these things. Even then, I'd rather go really fast on two wheels than four... much more exhilarating... and that doesn't even require much power.
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      08-28-2011, 01:44 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinister Crayon View Post
And do you know what the life expectancy of the clutch in those cars is? You're talking about cars that in general are driven so little that their oil must be changed on a specific time schedule rather than mileage schedule. The average supercar is probably driven less than 3000 miles in a year.

Besides, have you ever actually driven one? I have driven one such example with around 800 horsepower and the clutch was so incredibly numb that properly modulating the clutch was a chore. Apart from the ability to go stupidly fast in short order, I'd never really want to drive one of these things. Even then, I'd rather go really fast on two wheels than four... much more exhilarating... and that doesn't even require much power.
Well, with proper design and the use of multiplate clutches (for example, dual plate upgrades that are commonly used as specialist upgrades in C6 ZR1 applications for high horsepower, clutches with good feel and good life are achievable for 1000+bhp use.

Cheap single plate clutches such as the C5 Z06 LS6 and C6 Z06 LS7 Corvette clutches are good for about 600 bhp with good life and decent pedal feel. At the GM dealership where my son works, they see very few clutch problems. Most issues are from people who burn the clutch due to improper use. Cars with track use mixed in with daily driving should easily see 200,000km on the stock clutch if it isn't abused.
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      08-31-2011, 12:19 PM   #61
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Update 8/31/11

Looks like I might be close to resolution on this one. Unfortunately, it means I might also no longer be a 1er owner. The particular car I want just isn't out there without it being a convertible and I'm just don't want one. The current offer made is pretty generous though and I'm sure I'll be happy with the outcome if things keep heading this way. My salesman has been great about locating some different options and has found a pretty badass replacement. I'll post pics of the new car when I get it in a month.
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      08-31-2011, 10:26 PM   #62
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The only bad ass replacement would be a 1M.
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      09-01-2011, 12:36 AM   #63
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Well all of this has scared me a lot. However, I have about 430-450hp to the crank and 500+tq to the crank and my DCT has yet to slip. All of this with a HARD 7k miles and this tranny is holding up like a beast so far! I'm terrified of it because of all I've heard but it's proven me wrong so far.
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      09-01-2011, 11:40 AM   #64
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The only bad ass replacement would be a 1M.
I'd have to agree with you, but unfortunately a 1M isn't going to happen since I'm on a lease. I'll just say that the replacement is a bit of a "sleeper."
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      09-01-2011, 12:02 PM   #65
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I'd have to agree with you, but unfortunately a 1M isn't going to happen since I'm on a lease. I'll just say that the replacement is a bit of a "sleeper."
335d?
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      09-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #66
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Not going to jinx myself by saying as the last two cars I found got sold be the transfer could take place. I hate how dealers play games with each other when it comes to crap like that. I'd found a LeMans Blue M-Sport 328 coupe with a lot of desirable options that the dealer was willing to give up, but decided to sell two days later without even bothering to inform anyone. I was giving up HP, but the car was a real looker. The next one was a 335 coupe that again was sold before a deal could be reached.

I would've went back into a 135i if I could've found the right car with a 6sp. Either the car was jet black or a convertible and neither was acceptable. Jet black looks awesome, but I already have a '99 323 sedan that is jet black. I hate waxing it and I really don't have the time to pay it the attention it needs.
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