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      03-16-2011, 08:50 PM   #1
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///M (1M) Suspension vs. Performance Suspension.

Here is a question that has not been brought up this far, so I figured I would put it out there. Please, ONLY intelligent and logical contributions to the discussion. Replying "the car has an M badge therefore it's better" as many people will be inclined to type is not going to cut it.

Here we go: I have the performance suspension on my 135i which is outstanding/amazing to say the least, and leaps beyond the stock 135i suspension. There is virtually no nose dive, squatting, or body roll, and much (if not all) understeer is gone. The question is, LSD aside, does anyone know which suspension will perform better. There is also the weight-savings factor given that the M suspension components will be made out of aluminum.

Anyhow, let's hear it from the enthusiasts!
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      03-16-2011, 09:50 PM   #2
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The width

The difference in physical width will contribute to performance gains that cannot be achieved by modifications to spring and shock rates alone. Width will also help you lean on the larger tires longer before they start to go

I don't know if there is a significant performance improvement gained by the change in ride height between the two models ...

Contact patch of the tires will prove to work with suspension better and performance should be seen here as well.

LSD - performance gains would be seen at the limit, in a corner and 3/4 the limit of tires. An LSD will help tame understeer as well as promote traction to spinning tires.
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      03-16-2011, 10:10 PM   #3
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First off, I applaud you for yet another attempt at "135i > overpriced/under-engineered/under-powered/not-a-real-M-car 1M".
Unfortunately, I am not here to coddle your ego over the fact that your 135i is no longer top dog in the 1 family.

To begin, between performance suspension and the stock 135i and sport packaged equipped 135i; ride height is lowered by 25mm and 10mm respectively, and spring rates are +48% and +34% respectively.
These simple improvements in making the car stiffer and lower is why you notice a decrease in nose dive, squatting, body roll, and under-steer.
While those numbers might give you a boner and inflate your ego, in the grand scheme of things, just modifications to spring rates and ride height mean jack shit.
M3 vs 335i, and thus 1M vs 135i also feature differences in ride height and spring rate; but your performance suspension ONLY alters these two components, whereas between the 1M and 135i differences also include the facts that:
1) The suspension geometry is completely different and vastly superior; the M-division doesn't just sit around slapping more powerful engines and a lowering kit on their cars, they dump a lot of r&d on chassis.
2) The suspension arms are forged aluminum vs cast aluminum/steel; stronger and lighter.
3) The significantly widened track; wider track improves handling and allow wider tires which also improve handling.
4) Individual suspension components are also improved upon not to mention countless other components such as larger mount points, different springs, chassis and suspension reinforcements throughout, arm control sizes, bushings, etc

^ All of that PLUS the differences in spring rate and ride height between the 1M and 135i make it a FAR superior handling machine, and as an extension superior than your performance suspension equipped 135i with just spring rate and ride height adjustments. And this is far superior handling even BEFORE a LSD.
With the M-Diff, its not even comparable.

Anyways,
Thanks for playing

Last edited by techthentic; 03-16-2011 at 10:19 PM..
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      03-16-2011, 10:15 PM   #4
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you only have the Performance suspension which includes shocks, springs and a front sway bar.

the 1 series m will have ///m Shocks / springs (which are better than a performance suspension), //m control arms, tie rods, rear sway, bushings prety much the whole ///m suspension.

Along with that LSD
and wider fenders to run 245 tires up front

I have driven a 135i with performance suspension and I have a KW v2 coilover kit. Trust me there is a LOT to improve in the performance suspension.. it isn't all that great.
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      03-16-2011, 10:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapter View Post
An LSD will help tame understeer as well as promote traction to spinning tires.
I agree with your excellent post, except an LSD on a RWD car will tend to exacerbate (not tame) understeer, for a given suspension setup. However, I presume that the 1M's suspension will be tuned to specifically work with its LSD (more oversteer dialed in through spring rates, swaybars and damping), so that the net result should be quite balanced.

Once you light up both rears, an LSD may cause more oversteer. In all other circumstances, an LSD tends to cause understeer (which can be countered with suspension tuning).
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      03-16-2011, 11:01 PM   #6
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This is a pretty simple answer for you.

BMW M group is the Performance end of BMW and for the past 25 years they have taken some of the already best handling cars available as their starting point, tuning them for the M cars. M cars have always been the targets that other car makers try to copy and beat. The latest of which is the new Ford BOSS 302. they used the M3 as their goal for this new BOSS and the list of accolades over the past 25 years is amazing.

This is done not by just changing springs, shocks sway bars wheels and tires but in Engineering every detail of the chassis to perform in a very neutral way. Most BMW M cars have up to ~80% new parts engineered specifically for the M car over the regular production car.

At the end of the day the 1M is designed for the track by M engineers, all suspension parts work together in concert to produce the end results. Results tested and tuned by the manufacturer and proven on tracks like the Nurburgring. As you may notice all four fenders are flared to fit the massive tires and wheels just to name one aspect.

I don't know of any other aftermarket parts group that can spend the money to engineer a completely new suspension system for the 1 that will out perform the new 1M that is still street legal. ????
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      03-16-2011, 11:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redadair View Post
I don't know of any other aftermarket parts group that can spend the money to engineer a completely new suspension system for the 1 that will out perform the new 1M that is still street legal. ????
The suspension on the 1M is a compromise between comfort during the daily commute and performance. There will be a whole host of aftermarket suspensions that out perform the stock one, if you are willing to sacrifice ride comfort. Suspensions like Ohlins, Moton, and KW V3 will destroy the stock suspension on a road course. These aftermarket suspensions are absolutely street legal, but may not be what one would call comfy.
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      03-16-2011, 11:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grant View Post
The suspension on the 1M is a compromise between comfort during the daily commute and performance. There will be a whole host of aftermarket suspensions that out perform the stock one, if you are willing to sacrifice ride comfort. Suspensions like Ohlins, Moton, and KW V3 will destroy the stock suspension on a road course. These aftermarket suspensions are absolutely street legal, but may not be what one would call comfy.
I agree that you will be able to improve on the 1M suspension if you choose, however I don't think these same aftermarket pieces by themselves will make the 135i out perform the stock 1M.
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      03-16-2011, 11:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Redadair View Post
I agree that you will be able to improve on the 1M suspension if you choose, however I don't think these same aftermarket pieces by themselves will make the 135i out perform the stock 1M.
You may be right. There are many variables at work and it's hard for me to make that kind of call. I will say that adding Motons to a new Porsche (with appropriate springs and swaybars) generally cuts laptimes by several seconds on an average track. And the stock Porsche suspensions are quite good for a roadcar.
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      03-17-2011, 12:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grant View Post
You may be right. There are many variables at work and it's hard for me to make that kind of call. I will say that adding Motons to a new Porsche (with appropriate springs and swaybars) generally cuts laptimes by several seconds on an average track. And the stock Porsche suspensions are quite good for a roadcar.
This may be generally true of most any car, however this do it yourself suspension changes is usually hit or miss and may end up only working for your style of driving where the M group has the engineer and resources available to perfect the suspension as a system. Granted I agree it is a compromise for street/track use but overall best Daily Driver setup for both.
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      03-17-2011, 07:30 AM   #11
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All very valid points, thank you fellas....and this is exactly why I brought up this question debating whether an enhanced 135i performance suspension will perform equally or better than a 1M suspension. Also, who knows, maybe a "performance" suspension upgrade will become an option for the 1M?

For the most part, I do agree with what has been said!
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      03-17-2011, 07:49 AM   #12
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Though you do make some good points, a few things need clarification:

I do not believe that a 135i > 1M nor did I implied that anywhere on my post. If I believed such thing, I wouldn't be #1 on my dealer's list for the 1M

I do not believe the 1M is overpriced - a fully optioned out 135i is about 4-5 grand shy of a 1M, specially with the hike in base price for 2012. That's a gap I could justify closing for a performance machine.

Also, this car is far from underengineered. Its main components have already been researched, developed, and proven on the M3 platform, and it's powerplant has been proven for over 4 years throughout multiple platforms, though this one is slightly tweaked.

Underpowered?!? Not at all! My 135 struggles putting all the power down and has no problem spinning 1st, 2nd and 3rd chirps effortlessly. Cars are not all about power, but much about balance...and yes, there is such thing as too much power for certain platforms. This car has plenty of hp to move around with cat-like reflexes and an enormous pile of torque (specially during over boost) to shred many high performing/higher-priced cars out there.

Not a real M-car says who? You? Do you really think your opinion trumps that of BMW who decided to label the car an M car? Personally I choose to take bmw's word over yours for it...sorry. Let's see, m3 chassis, m3 suspension, m3 brakes, m3 LSD, wider track, m3 competition wheels...and you're saying it's not m-worthy?!? Think again

Lastly, ride height absolutely means sh*t. One of the main principles of car handling and aerodynamics is center of gravity - the lower this is, the better a car is able to handle. Now this doesn't mean that slapping a pair of cheap springs on a car enhances performance. Sway bars definitely play important roles and so do shocks and struts when it comes to balancing rebound.

Again, you did make some other valid points though!

[QUOTE=techthentic;9145438]First off, I applaud you for yet another attempt at "135i > overpriced/under-engineered/under-powered/not-a-real-M-car 1M".
Unfortunately, I am not here to coddle your ego over the fact that your 135i is no longer top dog in the 1 family.

To begin, between performance suspension and the stock 135i and sport packaged equipped 135i; ride height is lowered by 25mm and 10mm respectively, and spring rates are 48% and 34% respectively.
These simple improvements in making the car stiffer and lower is why you notice a decrease in nose dive, squatting, body roll, and under-steer.
While those numbers might give you a boner and inflate your ego, in the grand scheme of things, just modifications to spring rates and ride height mean jack shit.
M3 vs 335i, and thus 1M vs 135i also feature differences in ride height and spring rate; but your performance suspension ONLY alters these two components, whereas between the 1M and 135i differences also include the facts that:
1) The suspension geometry is completely different and vastly superior; the M-division doesn't just sit around slapping more powerful engines and a lowering kit on their cars, they dump a lot of r
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      03-17-2011, 10:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
All very valid points, thank you fellas....and this is exactly why I brought up this question debating whether an enhanced 135i performance suspension will perform equally or better than a 1M suspension.
It won't even come close. Trust me, this is coming from someone that has the BMW PS, Dinan Camber Plates, and M3 subframe bushings. A lot, and I mean a LOT is left to be desired even with this setup on the 135i.

One can compare the engines to the 135i and 1 ///M and find similarities, but when it comes to the suspension, they are not even in the same universe.
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      03-17-2011, 11:41 AM   #14
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Hopefully I'll be able to compare first hand myself sometime soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
All very valid points, thank you fellas....and this is exactly why I brought up this question debating whether an enhanced 135i performance suspension will perform equally or better than a 1M suspension.
It won't even come close. Trust me, this is coming from someone that has the BMW PS, Dinan Camber Plates, and M3 subframe bushings. A lot, and I mean a LOT is left to be desired even with this setup on the 135i.

One can compare the engines to the 135i and 1 ///M and find similarities, but when it comes to the suspension, they are not even in the same universe.
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      03-17-2011, 01:36 PM   #15
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The 1 M has a wider track and lighter suspension pieces which a 135 cannot be modified to match.
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      03-17-2011, 02:59 PM   #16
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I can't say what is good and what is better, but the suspension design from the M3/1M is visibly different. The whole suspension frame (don't know what's it called) goes deeper into the car. Oh dear, my english...

The basic idea seams to be the same. But apart from the different suspension parts, it's the design of that black frame on which the suspension is mounted, that differs the most (the subframe?). The whole setup on a 135i seams "flatter". I'm still wondering how that bigger M3 suspension does fit on the same car, but that does really show that a 1M and a 135i don't have much in common in terms of the suspension or the subframe.

135i:


M3:


1M (same as M3):
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      04-04-2011, 05:39 PM   #17
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The 1M has a far superior suspension than a 135. I say this as a 135 owner with the BMW PS fitted.
A 135 will never be as good as a 1M, however it is very close behind, and for the price difference that margin doesn't warrant the difference between the 2 cars....again all depends on the intended purpose of the car.
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      04-04-2011, 05:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianf2002 View Post
The 1M has a far superior suspension than a 135. I say this as a 135 owner with the BMW PS fitted.
A 135 will never be as good as a 1M, however it is very close behind, and for the price difference that margin doesn't warrant the difference between the 2 cars....again all depends on the intended purpose of the car.
This is precisely why I asked the question. I too have the PS on my car and I think it handles amazingly! I could only imagine what the 1M will handle like according to what others are saying about the M3 suspension combined with those wheels/tires and an LSD!

I'm signed up for a 1M so once I make the change I will be able to compare first hand. As for now, I can only hope I get an allocation/production number soon!
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      04-04-2011, 06:04 PM   #19
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Some 135i owners would gladly debate this....as seen in the 135i vs. E46 M3 thread. I won't name any names, but a certain moron thinks his mildly tuned 135i will "run circles around a 1M". Yeah, that ass-hat is ignored on my forum view. Comparing a 135i to the 1M is kinda like comparing a WRX to the STi. Obviously both cars are great, but one was given more attention to detail by the manufacturer's race division. Not even a fair comparison....1M > 135i....
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      04-04-2011, 06:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFIDDY5 View Post
Some 135i owners would gladly debate this....as seen in the 135i vs. E46 M3 thread. I won't name any names, but a certain moron thinks his mildly tuned 135i will "run circles around a 1M". Yeah, that ass-hat is ignored on my forum view. Comparing a 135i to the 1M is kinda like comparing a WRX to the STi. Obviously both cars are great, but one was given more attention to detail by the manufacturer's race division. Not even a fair comparison....1M > 135i....
I agree with 1M > 135i all the way. The reason I raised the question is that it is difficult to gauge if BMW put as much R&D into its performance parts as they did into the equivalent components of the M cars. I'm just curious, because their performance upgrades are not cheap
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      04-04-2011, 06:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I agree with 1M > 135i all the way. The reason I raised the question is that it is difficult to gauge if BMW put as much R&D into its performance parts as they did into the equivalent components of the M cars. I'm just curious, because their performance upgrades are not cheap
The M-Division spares no expense. I doubt they cut any corners on the 1M....
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      04-04-2011, 06:28 PM   #22
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The M-Division spares no expense. I doubt they cut any corners on the 1M....
I wouldn't go out that far. Of course they are cost conscious, not so much the engineers but the accounting beancounters that overlook them, so there is no such thing as no expenses spared, not in this environment.

As far as cutting corners on the 1M, they did so, plenty of them in fact. But I don't mean it in a bad way, they optimized given the many timing and budgetary constraints set before them. If they had more than 18 months of development time, coupled with a longer production run than just 10 months, you would have seen a very different 1 ///M IMO (in terms of available motor, tranny options, colors, use of lightweight materials such as CF roof, etc. etc.) The car would have been developed like every other ///M car - from the ground up. But once again, I think they did a great job considering the hand they were dealt.
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