RB Turbos & Vargas Turbos

[Tab135]

Cut a long story short, im building up a 135i about to completely pull the engine down while its out of the car so i thought i may as well mod this now and save in labor costs and making this so much easier if i plan to do turbos and down pipes later on, correct me if im wrong please. Would like some feedback in regards to the RB Turbos vs the Vargas Turbos, i have decided i will upgrade them just not sure which seems the smarter buy.

i will be running supporting mods with this setup like:
AR downpipes
ER Competition FMIC
ER Charge Pipe With 2 meth bungs
Tial BOV
Meth Injection.

And obviously a tune, to be selected.

What are peoples thoughts ?

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by KJD

Cut a long story short, im building up a 135i about to completely pull the engine down while its out of the car so i thought i may as well mod this now and save in labor costs and making this so much easier if i plan to do turbos and down pipes later on, correct me if im wrong please. Would like some feedback in regards to the RB Turbos vs the Vargas Turbos, i have decided i will upgrade them just not sure which seems the smarter buy.

i will be running supporting mods with this setup like:
AR downpipes
ER Competition FMIC
ER Charge Pipe With 2 meth bungs
Tial BOV
Meth Injection.

And obviously a tune, to be selected.

What are peoples thoughts ?

With regards RB turbochargers versus VTT "Stage 2" turbos and their "custom" TF035HL exhaust wheel, I could say much...

But in all fairness to Vargas I will await "proper" dyno results from jpsimon and turbomikes car over on BimmerBxxxx.

To be honest from initial reports based on preliminary tuning, the VTT Stage 2's are performing better than I and I suspect Rob expected them to, but we shall see.

If you are not in a hurry for "upped" turbos, sit tight for 3 months or so, after which the pros and cons of both will be much clearer.

Cheers,

JD.

[Tab135]

The Vargas Stage two turbo's are actually a decent amount cheaper then the RB Turbo's as well by the looks of it. i think i will send both an email.

i sent rob an email last night and he doesn't seem very willing to shed any light about his turbos, he just tells me to refer to his website.

[Tab135]

Well..... That was PROMPT... Impressed.

Hello,

We do infact offer a RHD 135i stage 2 turbo. Right now we are in our beta testing phase and have 4 sets out being tested, we should have results back in a week or so. Once we have those we can start shipping other units. The RHD turbos are the same price as the normal ones at $2499 without thrust upgrade and $2799 with, but the core charge is $600 instead of $400 as the RHD cores are harder to come by. We do refund the core charge once they are received. Shipping to AUS usually runs about $150-$200. Check back in about a week and hopefully we are closer to shipping.

Tony

[Tab135]

and another.....

The entire reason going with the Beta testing program I did was to test all tuning options, we have a tester running procede, one with JB4, we are running Cobb, another is running Giac, and we might get Renntech as well. To take full advantage of these you will want FBO, and an upgraded Low pressure fuel pump. We suggest the Walbro 455lph E85 pump. We install it in most of our cars.

Tony

[drjekl]

Hmm upgraded turbos supplied for around $3k interesting!!!

Why are you stripping your motor down? What rods pistons etc are you going to run?

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by drjekl

Why are you stripping your motor down? What rods pistons etc are you going to run?

Like to know about this too. Also, what's the likely labour cost?

[sparoz]

Justin, a little bit OT, but how would upped turbo without DP perform compare to a car with DP without turbo?

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Justin, a little bit OT, but how would upped turbo without DP perform compare to a car with DP without turbo?

I don't understand

[Curare86]

Originally Posted by KJD

Cut a long story short, im building up a 135i about to completely pull the engine down while its out of the car so i thought i may as well mod this now and save in labor costs and making this so much easier if i plan to do turbos and down pipes later on, correct me if im wrong please. Would like some feedback in regards to the RB Turbos vs the Vargas Turbos, i have decided i will upgrade them just not sure which seems the smarter buy.

i will be running supporting mods with this setup like:
AR downpipes
ER Competition FMIC
ER Charge Pipe With 2 meth bungs
Tial BOV
Meth Injection.

And obviously a tune, to be selected.

What are peoples thoughts ?

i thought the vargas kit included their on custom CP and maybe DP too to male everything fit?

[flinchy]

a little while ago there was an advantage to RB's with them being available 'now' though as far as i'm aware there's a big backlog of orders due to a group buy he did recently?

dyno results for stage 2's should be available this week hopefully finally (if he finds a dyno) and at least a couple are already installed and on the road

and there is the added bonus of less $$$ if the stage 2's turn out to be as good as everyone hopes, and in theory they could be a touch more reliable with the upgraded thrust (well... that's what the story is hahah)

i'm *hoping* they'll be about par with RB's personally.

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

With regards RB turbochargers versus VTT "Stage 2" turbos and their "custom" TF035HL exhaust wheel, I could say much...

anything small/simple you could say about it with your knowledge? i'm not a huge brain on turbos and am trying to learn as much as possible, i've read the debate that happened a while ago on the other forum about it, and came off FAIRLY satisfied that it wouldn't be a huge handicap?

Originally Posted by Curare86

i thought the vargas kit included their on custom CP and maybe DP too to male everything fit?

only for stage 3's, because they're BIG.. GTX twins completely custom.

[Tab135]

@drjekl @sparoz

I wont be replacing rods, pistons etc... Just stripping it down checking it all cleaning it all and adding a few new little peices like pumps/seals and things that need doing if they need doing.

Reason im so eager to get something aftermarket for the car now is because i know ill get to a point where ill want to upgrade them anyway. and whilst the engines out and the original turbos are off its going to be so much less labor to fit them up now.

the thing im most worried about is what tune to run these on. ?

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by drjekl

Hmm upgraded turbos supplied for around $3k interesting!!!

Why are you stripping your motor down? What rods pistons etc are you going to run?

Hey Shane,

if you had of jumped on the RB Group Buy you could have bought Rob Beck turbos for $2,699.00 USD (excluding the RHD core charge).

Shipping charges to and from the US will be around $400 AUD all up.

FYI,

Advan always has a set of OEM RHD TD03 turbochargers ready to ship for such an upgrade.

That way you are not paying the $600 USD core charge, nor will your car be out of action whilst Rob or be it Tony, "do their thing".

We would simply hold on to your stock snails, after the "upped" turbos are installed.

So in the above scenario RB's would have cost you about $3,100.00 AUD, which is only marginally more than the unproven Vargas "Stage 2's".

Cheers,

JD.

[Tab135]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey Shane,

if you had of jumped on the RB Group Buy you could have bought Rob Beck turbos for $2,699.00 USD (excluding the RHD core charge).

Shipping charges to and from the US will be around $400 AUD all up.

FYI,

Advan always has a set of OEM RHD TD03 turbochargers ready to ship for such an upgrade.

That way you are not paying the $600 USD core charge, nor will your car be out of action whilst Rob or be it Tony, "do their thing".

We would simply hold on to your stock snails, after the "upped" turbos are installed.

So in the above scenario RB's would have cost you about $3,100.00 AUD, which is only marginally more than the unproven Vargas "Stage 2's".

Cheers,

JD.

Justin i have a spare set of RHD turbos sitting in my garage at home so will be sending them off to Rob or tony before hand so i dont have to pay any fee's. evan at 600US for both turbos thats CHEAP.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Justin, a little bit OT, but how would upped turbo without DP perform compare to a car with DP without turbo?

Hmmm, interesting question.

Well I know from personal experience the stock snails are good for "around" 300 rwkW on Peter's dyno, with a FBO vehicle running Methanol Injection.

The above car running RB's will put down around 340 rwkW, closer to 350 rwkW if you push them hard, i.e. 18-19 psi at peak power.

Catless downpipes on a FBO car are worth around 15-20 rwkW, so one could theorise that RB's mated to stock catted downpipes would comfortably make 320-325 rwkW.

But and this is a big "but", the reason RB's make what they do is not simply because of the TD04-15T compressor wheel, but it is the significant increase in exhaust gas flow, provided by the much larger TD04L exhaust wheel over that of the much smaller "stock snail" TD03L wheel.

To be honest I have never seen the above combination of RB turbo & stock downpipe on a dyno, so I can only speculate.

It is possible that the restrictive cat in the downpipe and the increased back pressure that induces, would negate a lot of the gas flow the bigger TD04L exhaust turbine provides.

However the one thing to also remember about RB turbos, is the excellent billet internal wastegate assembly.

I have heard many N54's with worn OEM wastegates and at idle they sound shocking and that is putting it lightly.

You will never have that issue with RB's and until you have driven a RB N54, you will not know how much sweeter RB's sound over the stock snails.

Cheers,

JD.

[Tab135]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hmmm, interesting question.

Well I know from personal experience the stock snails are good for "around" 300 rwkW on Peter's dyno, with a FBO vehicle running Methanol Injection.

The above car running RB's will put down around 340 rwkW, closer to 350 rwkW if you push them hard, i.e. 18-19 psi at peak power.

Catless downpipes on a FBO car are worth around 15-20 rwkW, so one could theorise that RB's mated to stock catted downpipes would comfortably make 320-325 rwkW.

But and this is a big "but", the reason RB's make what they do is not because of the TD04-15T compressor wheel, but it is the significant increase in exhaust gas flow, provided by the much larger TD04L exhaust wheel.

To be honest I have never seen the above combination on a dyno.

It is possible that the restrictive cat in the downpipe and the increased back pressure would negate a lot of the gas flow the bigger TD04 exhaust turbine provides.

The one thing to also remember about RB turbos is the excellent billet internal wastegate assembly.

I have heard many N54's with worn OEM wastegates and at idle they sound shocking and that is putting it lightly.

You will never have that issue with RB's and until you have driven a RB N54, you will not know how much sweeter RB's sound over the stock snails.

Cheers,

JD.

after reading this seems you have experienced these turbos ?

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by KJD

after reading this seems you have experienced these turbos ?

Yes!

[Tab135]

Thats WOW, what supporting mods and tune are you running with that ?

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hmmm, interesting question.

Well I know from personal experience the stock snails are good for "around" 300 rwkW on Peter's dyno, with a FBO vehicle running Methanol Injection.

The above car running RB's will put down around 340 rwkW, closer to 350 rwkW if you push them hard, i.e. 18-19 psi at peak power.

Catless downpipes on a FBO car are worth around 15-20 rwkW, so one could theorise that RB's mated to stock catted downpipes would comfortably make 320-325 rwkW.

But and this is a big "but", the reason RB's make what they do is not simply because of the TD04-15T compressor wheel, but it is the significant increase in exhaust gas flow, provided by the much larger TD04L exhaust wheel over that of the much smaller "stock snail" TD03L wheel.

To be honest I have never seen the above combination of RB turbo & stock downpipe on a dyno, so I can only speculate.

It is possible that the restrictive cat in the downpipe and the increased back pressure that induces, would negate a lot of the gas flow the bigger TD04L exhaust turbine provides.

However the one thing to also remember about RB turbos, is the excellent billet internal wastegate assembly.

I have heard many N54's with worn OEM wastegates and at idle they sound shocking and that is putting it lightly.

You will never have that issue with RB's and until you have driven a RB N54, you will not know how much sweeter RB's sound over the stock snails.

Cheers,

JD.

Thanks for the insight .

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hey guys,

I have received quite a few PMs of late asking about the differences between Rob Beck turbochargers and the new VTT "Stage 2" turbos.

I thought I would share a PM I sent to customer at the start of May, which sheds some light on the matter, in particular how quickly they will spool in comparison to RB turbos.


"Hey mate,

I have a ton of info from Rob regarding the materials chosen and the manufacturing process of his billet internal wastegate assemblies alone.

But I do not think he would want that to become public knowledge, as he considers a lot of it to be proprietary.

Tony has upgraded the wastegate assemblies on his Stage 2's but I do not think they will be anywhere near a durable as Rob's, based on the comparisons Rob has drawn for me regarding the materials Tony chose and the manufacturing process used.

However durability issues will not become apparent for quite some time, as we know the OEM wastegates do not rattle "out of the box", the assemblies fail over time.

Disregarding the differences in wastegate assemblies and the use of the original small bearing housing TDO3 centresections by Tony, the VTT turbos will certainly make additional power over stock snails.

However with regards final dyno numbers, my hunch is the Vargas turbos will not spool as quickly as Rob's, as the smaller TF035HL exhaust turbine is not large enough to make optimum use of the exhaust gas energy available, to drive the large TD04-15T compressor wheel as efficiently as the TD04L wheel used on RBs at the same RPM.

I also suspect too that the Vargas turbos will hit a horsepower ceiling sooner than RB's.

We have seen on my car that above 18.5 psi or thereabouts at 6,000 rpm, further increases in boost pressure will net small horsepower gains, as the exhaust/turbine housing and the backpressure induced is the limiting factor.

However I feel the smaller 035 turbine wheel will simply not flow enough exhaust gas and will be tapped out before the exhaust housing becomes the restriction.

But this is just my opinion on the matter, I will always recommend RB's as I have used them personally and Rob is a stand up guy.

The VTT "Stage 2's" are no doubt excellent value for money, but once you factor in a $1,500-$2,000 installation bill I would be far more inclined to go with a product that has been on the market for several years and proven itself in both power development and reliability, albeit at a marginal increase in price."


For what it's worth whilst the Vargas turbos appear to be making more top end power then I expected, based on logs I have seen and a recent dyno graph, they are spooling much later than RB turbos, as much as 750 rpm later.

I suspect my hunch regarding the smaller TF035HL exhaust turbine, not being able to drive the 15T compressor wheel as efficiently, in comparison to the larger RB TD04L turbine was correct.

Anyway for those guys considering the RB turbo route I now have 2 sets of RHD cores at my disposal, for a quick turn around on the upgrade.

Cheers,

JD.

[Tab135]

I think that statement has made my mind up, thanks Justin! Also can you run the car stock with just the turbos done with a tune ?

[Tab135]

Possible to do a groupbuy ?