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      06-13-2019, 01:12 PM   #23
bbnks2
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Originally Posted by Mark Aubele View Post
It's my wife's track car so I only have autocross and street time with it, but honestly I don't really like it. It has a massive midrange, but like you said it falls off hard up top. Took it to the dragstrip to see where she should be shifting it, letting the car shift itself at ~7000 it trapped 109mph, shifting it at 5800 it trapped 112.

It certainly works but it was really hard to modulate at low speeds. She doesn't have any issues at the faster hillclimbs we run but this past weekend was having some difficulty getting out of slower corners. I have an easier time getting power down in my 504 rwhp 2525lb E36.

All the hills we run are out your way, a couple of friends we race with run E85 can't remember where they get it. I know they have to drive like 45 min away. We have it everywhere around here.

This is all tuning. Stock tune provides a flat 300/300. It's only when you spin the stock turbo beyond it's efficiency in the mid-range does the car "fall flat on its face" at high rpm... and produce gobs of low-end torque that makes for poor drive-ability...

People value horsepower so much... a 3300lb car with 300whp is plenty to run faster lap times than anyone here has ever posted up (again look at the lap times of a professionally driven n55 powered m235iR @ 280hp). If you want to punch way above your weight then expect to put a little money into the car lol A PS2 turbo will make a nice 450whp/400wtq and you should be able to run with corvettes and other high-end sports cars.

spend 15k on a 135i or go drop 30-40k on a comparable aged z06 or something? I guess it's kind of the "built" vs "bought" mentality I suppose.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 06-13-2019 at 01:26 PM..
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      06-13-2019, 05:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
This is all tuning. Stock tune provides a flat 300/300. It's only when you spin the stock turbo beyond it's efficiency in the mid-range does the car "fall flat on its face" at high rpm... and produce gobs of low-end torque that makes for poor drive-ability...

People value horsepower so much... a 3300lb car with 300whp is plenty to run faster lap times than anyone here has ever posted up (again look at the lap times of a professionally driven n55 powered m235iR @ 280hp). If you want to punch way above your weight then expect to put a little money into the car lol A PS2 turbo will make a nice 450whp/400wtq and you should be able to run with corvettes and other high-end sports cars.

spend 15k on a 135i or go drop 30-40k on a comparable aged z06 or something? I guess it's kind of the "built" vs "bought" mentality I suppose.
We run more power because it's faster that way. Pretty simple. I fully understand why the car falls on it's face up top (it isn't, it just feels that way since the midrange is so much stronger), and acknowledged it multiple times in my posts. We are way above what the tiny turbo was intended to do. She runs times comparable with "Z06s and high end sports cars" already. The car is limited by class rules, we have run it with the stock tune, and the E30/E50 tune, it's a difference of 2-5 seconds depending on what hill she is on.

Do you really think 300whp at 3300lb is capable of posting faster lap times than anyone on here? Come on dude.
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      06-14-2019, 03:48 PM   #25
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The auto isn't bad on track... I've loved the car on track with the MHD/XHP tune and an oil/tranny cooler + some other mods. Of course a DCT would be ideal (might swap one in) but I've put about 8k track miles on the car in the last 2-3 years and haven't had any major issues except in 105*+ temps where shifts get slow after 15-20min ... I do enjoy the engineering aspect of building the car and do all my own wrenching so I'm okay with small issues like these. In hindsight, I probably would have enjoyed an E46 M3 with E85 tune for the track more. Nearly 300whp and 2850lbs.

Modern German cars are just so heavy...
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      06-15-2019, 07:36 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
The auto isn't bad on track... I've loved the car on track with the MHD/XHP tune and an oil/tranny cooler + some other mods. Of course a DCT would be ideal (might swap one in) but I've put about 8k track miles on the car in the last 2-3 years and haven't had any major issues except in 105*+ temps where shifts get slow after 15-20min ... I do enjoy the engineering aspect of building the car and do all my own wrenching so I'm okay with small issues like these. In hindsight, I probably would have enjoyed an E46 M3 with E85 tune for the track more. Nearly 300whp and 2850lbs.

Modern German cars are just so heavy...
There isn't much difference in weight between the two at all.
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      06-15-2019, 06:51 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Aubele View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
The auto isn't bad on track... I've loved the car on track with the MHD/XHP tune and an oil/tranny cooler + some other mods. Of course a DCT would be ideal (might swap one in) but I've put about 8k track miles on the car in the last 2-3 years and haven't had any major issues except in 105*+ temps where shifts get slow after 15-20min ... I do enjoy the engineering aspect of building the car and do all my own wrenching so I'm okay with small issues like these. In hindsight, I probably would have enjoyed an E46 M3 with E85 tune for the track more. Nearly 300whp and 2850lbs.

Modern German cars are just so heavy...
There isn't much difference in weight between the two at all.
I haven't seen that many E82s gutted down below #2850 - I know TC design has an E46 down to #2600 or something insane.
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      06-16-2019, 08:12 AM   #28
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I haven't seen that many E82s gutted down below #2850 - I know TC design has an E46 down to #2600 or something insane.
Because they aren't as popular, I haven't seen one with the effort to get it light put into it yet. Our 135i and E36 M3 were nearly identical full weight. M3 was 3380, 135i was 3370. Both cars had autopower 4 points installed. Now the E36 is down to 2527 with 200lb of cage in it.

With the same level of effort (a LOT, skinned everything, lexan, manual brakes, etc) I'm pretty sure the 135 could get down to a similar weight.
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      06-16-2019, 11:03 AM   #29
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my car is @ 3185lbs, half tank no driver. most of the interior is gone and I removed the sunroof.

if you want a car you can buy and track without much work than the 86 is probably a better bet. but boosting that engine seems risky, none of the drive train is set up to handle it.
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      06-16-2019, 05:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
put about 8k track miles on the car in the last 2-3 years
Thatís a lot of laps!

Backing up to the comment about the m235/240 race car above...

The OP is asking about an HPDE car. Assuming itís a car that will
Be driven to the track? The race cars canít be driven to the track (and one with a street title - you wouldnít really want to drive them to the track.) also, those cars are not a 135i, they are way different and while they can turn an awesome lap time with 330-340hp, they are $100k cars with fully spherical bushings, solid and nearly-solid mounts, wider track with wider tires (slicks) on track specific alignment you need a ton of parts to achieve. You could build a 135i to a race spec, and probably do it for about $30-35k, plus the car....

I would bet the brakes on those m240i Evoís are about $10k alone. Sweet cars though.
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      06-17-2019, 02:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Relegate View Post
That’s a lot of laps!

Backing up to the comment about the m235/240 race car above...

The OP is asking about an HPDE car. Assuming it’s a car that will
Be driven to the track? The race cars can’t be driven to the track (and one with a street title - you wouldn’t really want to drive them to the track.) also, those cars are not a 135i, they are way different and while they can turn an awesome lap time with 330-340hp, they are $100k cars with fully spherical bushings, solid and nearly-solid mounts, wider track with wider tires (slicks) on track specific alignment you need a ton of parts to achieve. You could build a 135i to a race spec, and probably do it for about $30-35k, plus the car....

I would bet the brakes on those m240i Evo’s are about $10k alone. Sweet cars though.
I was just using the M235iR as an example of how a fully prepped car, which is DETUNED, is notably faster than a fully prepped FRS/BRZ. They aren't even in the same class. I know the Techsport team that campaigns in both TC and TCA and while their FRS/BRZ fleet are absolute weapons they are not as fast as any of the cars people are mentioning in this thread.

When you start talking about buying salvaged cars for HPDE I assume OP means to strip it and turn it into a "racecar" not daily drive it lol.

As for how teh M235iR is relevant to a discussion about a 135i, they are basically the same cars lol. Also, there are usually tons of fully prepped spec E36's at track days comparable to the prep the M235iR gets... Stripped, caged, hard mounted drive-train, adjustable spherical arms, os geiken differentials, fire systems, driver cooling system... in many ways these cars have higher end parts than what these race cars run (like the modest BMW performance differential and PFC pads). Even those 10k calipers you mention are only 355mm 4-pots (restricted to 4-pots and size by class rules). You can easily replicate that setup with a set of $2-3k Stoptech calipers... In fact, plenty of people on this forum run more capable braking systems than the M235iR yet still complain lol go figure... M235iR runs slicks, yes, but it is homulgated to run a more modest 265/35/r18 tire on an 18x10 wheel @ Et2x. I've seen 1M's at the track running 305 square lol. Ive seen some tucking 335's in autocross...

So yeah, while you can say "oh well that's a race car that's not a fair comparison" it does showcase what these cars are capable of and gives you something to build towards... They really aren't prepped anywhere near the level of the higher end classed cars. BMW did basic "racecar" stuff to it as it's a relatively cheap 100k car... It runs regular 2-way KW coilovers lol.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 07-12-2019 at 11:24 AM..
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      07-14-2019, 11:11 PM   #32
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This thread is a little old, so hopefully you don't mind the hijack. I'm also deciding between a 135i and 86 so figured I'd post a few additional questions here.

From what I've read, the 135i won't be competitive in stock form. But, personally I just want the platform that's going to offer the most fun on the street and track/autocross. Fun for me is a car that has communicative steering and chassis. I previously owned an mk7 GTI and while that car put down good lap times for its class, it was far too numb and boring so I got rid of it. So, I don't care about lap times or the potential to be competitive in autocross. That mechanical connection is what I'm really after.

I know the 86 has the better chassis, but does the 135i at least have better steering with it being hydraulic? What bothers me about the 86 is the lack of power, I'm afraid it'll be annoying as hell to DD.

If I do decide on the 1, can I track it reliably with just basic bolt ons, oil cooler and sump?

I'll be test driving a 2011 135i either Monday or Tuesday, but would appreciate feedback from people who have tracked them.
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      07-15-2019, 11:21 AM   #33
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This is going to sound sacrilegious, but just get a C5 or C6 Corvette.
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      07-15-2019, 03:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jay86 View Post
This thread is a little old, so hopefully you don't mind the hijack. I'm also deciding between a 135i and 86 so figured I'd post a few additional questions here.

From what I've read, the 135i won't be competitive in stock form. But, personally I just want the platform that's going to offer the most fun on the street and track/autocross. Fun for me is a car that has communicative steering and chassis. I previously owned an mk7 GTI and while that car put down good lap times for its class, it was far too numb and boring so I got rid of it. So, I don't care about lap times or the potential to be competitive in autocross. That mechanical connection is what I'm really after.

I know the 86 has the better chassis, but does the 135i at least have better steering with it being hydraulic? What bothers me about the 86 is the lack of power, I'm afraid it'll be annoying as hell to DD.

If I do decide on the 1, can I track it reliably with just basic bolt ons, oil cooler and sump?

I'll be test driving a 2011 135i either Monday or Tuesday, but would appreciate feedback from people who have tracked them.
If you want a mechanical connection, the 86 is probably the droid you seek. But they have zero power. I've been pleasantly surprised how reliable our 135i has been, but it has primarily been hillclimbed, which is more of a high speed autocross with trees and rocks than a track when it comes to questions of durability. That being said, she has done multiple 20 minute sessions without issue, although we seem to be in the minority when it comes to these cars.

When it comes to fun, my car history has been mostly high powered rwd cars (C5, Mustangs, LS M3, etc.), and while I do enjoy driving the 135i, it honestly leaves me a bit bored. Awesome steering feel if that's what you are after, but I'm not really a boosted 6 fan, and the powerband of these cars with a stock turbo tuned is just awful. Hits hard in the low and mid range and falls off a cliff up top. Needs quite a bit of work to make a suitable track car too.
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      07-15-2019, 06:36 PM   #35
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Maybe I'll just go 128i, does that have hydraulic steering as well?
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      07-15-2019, 09:22 PM   #36
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Yes, and it's a bit lighter on the nose.

but if you're going 128, it might make more sense to go e46 non M. larger aftermarket.
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      07-16-2019, 01:22 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Aubele View Post
Because they aren't as popular, I haven't seen one with the effort to get it light put into it yet. Our 135i and E36 M3 were nearly identical full weight. M3 was 3380, 135i was 3370. Both cars had autopower 4 points installed. Now the E36 is down to 2527 with 200lb of cage in it.

With the same level of effort (a LOT, skinned everything, lexan, manual brakes, etc) I'm pretty sure the 135 could get down to a similar weight.
Depends on how far you want to take it, I'm sure it could get down to about the same as that e36 then.

I think 780 kgs dry is pretty far to the extreme though: http://news.kwautomotive.com/picture...eorg_Plasa.pdf
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      07-16-2019, 02:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by dtla1 View Post
Depends on how far you want to take it, I'm sure it could get down to about the same as that e36 then.

I think 780 kgs dry is pretty far to the extreme though: http://news.kwautomotive.com/picture...eorg_Plasa.pdf
Ah, George Plasa's 1 series. RIP. He was an amazing driver and engineer, and died in that car.

To be fair his car was pretty much a 1 series in appearance only.
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      07-16-2019, 03:15 PM   #39
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Ah, George Plasa's 1 series. RIP. He was an amazing driver and engineer, and died in that car.

To be fair his car was pretty much a 1 series in appearance only.
Yes, RIP George.

And you're right, only in appearance, since I think it had a full space frame. Sounded amazing though!
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