Wagner vs Forge IC

TheRuss · 04-22-2013, 02:55 PM

Hi folks, I'm based in the UK and looking for an upgrade IC for my N54 135. I want one that requires no cutting and is available in the UK, which leaves me with a choice of just two.

This Wagner offering with cast end tanks and a stepped core:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=732521

And this Forge offering with sheet end tanks and no step:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383388

Excuse the random links, but it's just to show which ones I'm talking about.

Now, I can get the Wagner slightly cheaper than the Forge and it has stock couplers, but Forge aren't far from me and have offered a decent price for the unit to be fitted at their premises. Also, it's possible that their N55/1M IC might fit, which does use the stock couplers also.

Funny enough, Forge didn't think there was much/anything to be gained from getting rid of the stock couplers, even though the unit I was enquiring about used hoses. They didn't seem to think it was much of a restriction at all.

Now, which IC do you folks think is the best? On paper it'd seem to be the Wagner, with cast end tanks and a stepped portion, but is there anything else that I should take into consideration or any reason why the Forge might actually be the better unit?

Thanks in advance!

TheRuss

Pig Farmer · 04-22-2013, 07:02 PM

I've been running Wagner's bar & plate FMIC for a few years with no issues. I have seen 22psi of boost on the stock connections without any problems. The IATs are definitely better than the OEM intercooler when driving. However the temps can rise to around 115 degrees if sitting in stop-and-go traffic (most likely do to its proximity to the radiator). It takes approximately a 1/4 mile at speed for it to drop down to normal temps. I know many people say that they were able to install the Wagner without cutting. This was not the case for me. I could not get the OEM hoses to line up with the Wagner when it was fit behind the lower plastic cross-brace. In addition, the cross brace covered up part of the frontal surface area. I cut the bottom brace off and everything fit together perfectly. In addition, the Wagner is a couple inches taller than the OEM unit and sits flush with the plastic engine under tray. This is good as it ensures that all the in coming air is pushed through the core. I give the Wagner a thumbs-up, but as mentioned it may require some cutting.

TheRuss · 04-23-2013, 07:15 AM

Thanks Pig Farmer. Anybody else got any insight? Are cast end tanks always better than sheet metal, or not?

Stohlen · 04-23-2013, 07:23 AM

Cobb? Better than both?

TheRuss · 04-23-2013, 07:27 AM

Gotta be honest, I didn't realise that Cobb did one. However, I'm guessing it's not available in the UK, so I'd have to ship it over at great expense?

Also, I don't see how it's better. Looks like the Wagner but with silicone hoses in place of the stock couplers...

Stohlen · 04-23-2013, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRuss

Gotta be honest, I didn't realise that Cobb did one. However, I'm guessing it's not available in the UK, so I'd have to ship it over at great expense?

Also, I don't see how it's better. Looks like the Wagner but with silicone hoses in place of the stock couplers...

Thats why the question marks, but I trust Cobb over Wagner to do a good job engineering their parts.

TheRuss · 04-23-2013, 07:51 AM

TBH, the Cobb and Wagner look almost identical in terms of construction. The Forge looks entirely different though.

TheRuss · 04-23-2013, 08:18 AM

Yikes! Thanks for that.

So, you'd say the Forge would be my best bet? In all honesty, it kinda makes sense, because they have a good reputation for intercoolers and are just up the road from me (about 50 miles). Their price also includes fitting, which is nice.

GeeRam · 04-23-2013, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRuss

Yikes! Thanks for that.

So, you'd say the Forge would be my best bet? In all honesty, it kinda makes sense, because they have a good reputation for intercoolers and are just up the road from me (about 50 miles). Their price also includes fitting, which is nice.

I've got the Forge one fitted in my N55, and am more than happy with it

I drove down to Forge from London to have it fitted as well, so, if Forge are that close to you, then I'd be inclined to go the Forge route.

TheRuss · 04-23-2013, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeRam

I've got the Forge one fitted in my N55, and am more than happy with it

I drove down to Forge from London to have it fitted as well, so, if Forge are that close to you, then I'd be inclined to go the Forge route.

Thanks GeeRam, that's kinda what I was thinking, though I'm still in two minds.

ilikebmxbikes · 04-23-2013, 03:25 PM

I wouldnt base your intercooler selection purely on a wagner having a freak failure, which they honored and replaced. Many people have their intercoolers and have complete success with them.

I have had an ER and a ETS intercooler and both have been great and very easy to install. The ER intercooler was much larger than the ETS and required a bit of trimming where the ETS required a bit of trimming. I noticed no performance difference between the two.

Venom · 04-26-2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I wouldnt base your intercooler selection purely on a wagner having a freak failure, which they honored and replaced. Many people have their intercoolers and have complete success with them.

I have had an ER and a ETS intercooler and both have been great and very easy to install. The ER intercooler was much larger than the ETS and required a bit of trimming where the ETS required a bit of trimming. I noticed no performance difference between the two.

+1 I actually have the Wagner FMIC and I can say that Wagner is very consumer oriented after having talked directly to them. They also back up their products with a 5 year warranty. They very cleanly dealt with the issue and quickly resolved it. Fitment was great on my FMIC. Love mine!

tracer bullet · 04-26-2013, 01:16 PM

I think it depends on how much of a factor cost is for you. My gut feel, without any data, is that the Forge would be marginally better. But if it is in fact any better, it's certainly not on the same ratio as its additional cost (I expect that the value per dollar ratio would have to weight heavily in favor of the Wagner).

I agree that Wagner appears to have handled their warranty very well and I for one wouldn't knock them a bit for the one failure described in another post here.

That said I have a Forge on order with HPA because I prefer the connection type and mating up with the stock parts (I'm talking the 1M / N55 engine style only). I know that silicone couplers and t-bolt clamps are used all over the place and are fine, but I just have a preference for the way the Forge installs. It kind of feels to me like if the BMW engineers were able to make a better intercooler and not have to be concerned with cost, it is what they would have done. I could be way off on that but it was why i went w/ the Forge.

If I had a 135i with an N54 I don't think Forge would have been in the running, I would have been deciding between Wagner, ETS and VSRF.

yawn · 04-26-2013, 04:46 PM

I wasn't aware that forge could be installed without cutting? I know ets and ams can be done without cutting though.

ilikebmxbikes · 04-26-2013, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I think it depends on how much of a factor cost is for you. My gut feel, without any data, is that the Forge would be marginally better. But if it is in fact any better, it's certainly not on the same ratio as its additional cost (I expect that the value per dollar ratio would have to weight heavily in favor of the Wagner).

I agree that Wagner appears to have handled their warranty very well and I for one wouldn't knock them a bit for the one failure described in another post here.

That said I have a Forge on order with HPA because I prefer the connection type and mating up with the stock parts (I'm talking the 1M / N55 engine style only). I know that silicone couplers and t-bolt clamps are used all over the place and are fine, but I just have a preference for the way the Forge installs. It kind of feels to me like if the BMW engineers were able to make a better intercooler and not have to be concerned with cost, it is what they would have done. I could be way off on that but it was why i went w/ the Forge.

If I had a 135i with an N54 I don't think Forge would have been in the running, I would have been deciding between Wagner, ETS and VSRF.

The wagner also bolts up to stock.

tracer bullet · 04-26-2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

The wagner also bolts up to stock.

Hmm, seems that there is one that does. I'd only ever seen a Wagner shown with couplers and hose clamps on it. Even on their site they seem to show lots of pics of that type but then mixed in is a single shot of one with the larger couplers and clips. Well dangit they need to get the word out a little better, maybe it would have been a contender after all.

GeeRam · 04-27-2013, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkatron

I wasn't aware that forge could be installed without cutting?

The newer style N55/1M version certainley can, as that's what's fitted in mine.

Schmoops135i · 04-27-2013, 08:58 AM

How does the Cobb unit stock up? I realize it might be pricey to consider if its unavailable directly from Cobb but surely there is a european website selling them?

TheRuss · 04-27-2013, 09:54 AM

Not seen the Cobb over here, only the Forge and the Wagner.

There's less than £100.00 (GBP) between the Forge and Wagner, and the Forge price includes fitting at Forge's HQ. The Wagner price is posted to my door for me to fit. As such, the price is kinda equal.

Vtec Abuser · 04-28-2013, 08:52 AM

I have also opted for the Forge FMIC on my N55 and recently had the car on the rollers for a health check and to see if there was any gains at all over the oem cooler even though the software hasn't been touched (so just ECU adaptation).
The RR was a Dyno Dynamics set up (which gives similar results to the Mustang Dynos in the US) and I have already had the car dynod there both when stock and with just the DMS software flash tune.
Results showed an increase of 13-14bhp and 9lb/ft at the flywheel (10bhp ATW) which although isn't mind boggling, given the fact I wasn't really expecting any gains without the software being tweaked and that a uprated FMIC isn't generally seen as a power gaining mod as such, I was reasonably pleased tbh..

Not had any experience with the Wagner cooler, but people who have gone with their product seemed to be pleased from what I have seen. I don't think you'll be disappointed in either to be honest mate..

04-22-2013, 02:55 PM	#1
TheRuss Lieutenant 32 Rep 408 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: South West, UK iTrader: (0)	Wagner vs Forge IC Hi folks, I'm based in the UK and looking for an upgrade IC for my N54 135. I want one that requires no cutting and is available in the UK, which leaves me with a choice of just two. This Wagner offering with cast end tanks and a stepped core: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=732521 And this Forge offering with sheet end tanks and no step: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383388 Excuse the random links, but it's just to show which ones I'm talking about. Now, I can get the Wagner slightly cheaper than the Forge and it has stock couplers, but Forge aren't far from me and have offered a decent price for the unit to be fitted at their premises. Also, it's possible that their N55/1M IC might fit, which does use the stock couplers also. Funny enough, Forge didn't think there was much/anything to be gained from getting rid of the stock couplers, even though the unit I was enquiring about used hoses. They didn't seem to think it was much of a restriction at all. Now, which IC do you folks think is the best? On paper it'd seem to be the Wagner, with cast end tanks and a stepped portion, but is there anything else that I should take into consideration or any reason why the Forge might actually be the better unit? Thanks in advance! TheRuss
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04-22-2013, 07:02 PM	#2
Pig Farmer Major 343 Rep 1,293 Posts Drives: E92M Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida iTrader: (0)	I've been running Wagner's bar & plate FMIC for a few years with no issues. I have seen 22psi of boost on the stock connections without any problems. The IATs are definitely better than the OEM intercooler when driving. However the temps can rise to around 115 degrees if sitting in stop-and-go traffic (most likely do to its proximity to the radiator). It takes approximately a 1/4 mile at speed for it to drop down to normal temps. I know many people say that they were able to install the Wagner without cutting. This was not the case for me. I could not get the OEM hoses to line up with the Wagner when it was fit behind the lower plastic cross-brace. In addition, the cross brace covered up part of the frontal surface area. I cut the bottom brace off and everything fit together perfectly. In addition, the Wagner is a couple inches taller than the OEM unit and sits flush with the plastic engine under tray. This is good as it ensures that all the in coming air is pushed through the core. I give the Wagner a thumbs-up, but as mentioned it may require some cutting.
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04-23-2013, 07:15 AM	#3
TheRuss Lieutenant 32 Rep 408 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: South West, UK iTrader: (0)	Thanks Pig Farmer. Anybody else got any insight? Are cast end tanks always better than sheet metal, or not?
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04-23-2013, 07:23 AM	#4
Stohlen Major 68 Rep 1,266 Posts Drives: AW 135i Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Waterford, Mi iTrader: (2) Garage List 2008 BMW 135i [5.66]	Cobb? Better than both?
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04-23-2013, 07:27 AM	#5
TheRuss Lieutenant 32 Rep 408 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: South West, UK iTrader: (0)	Gotta be honest, I didn't realise that Cobb did one. However, I'm guessing it's not available in the UK, so I'd have to ship it over at great expense? Also, I don't see how it's better. Looks like the Wagner but with silicone hoses in place of the stock couplers...
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04-23-2013, 07:51 AM	#7
TheRuss Lieutenant 32 Rep 408 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: South West, UK iTrader: (0)	TBH, the Cobb and Wagner look almost identical in terms of construction. The Forge looks entirely different though.
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04-23-2013, 08:18 AM	#8
TheRuss Lieutenant 32 Rep 408 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: South West, UK iTrader: (0)	Yikes! Thanks for that. So, you'd say the Forge would be my best bet? In all honesty, it kinda makes sense, because they have a good reputation for intercoolers and are just up the road from me (about 50 miles). Their price also includes fitting, which is nice.
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04-23-2013, 03:25 PM	#11
ilikebmxbikes Banned 1530 Rep 4,743 Posts Drives: S65 1M Clone & E92 M3 4.6L Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Francisco iTrader: (42) Garage List '08/13 1M Clone 4.0L [10.00] '11 e92 M3 4.6L [10.00]	I wouldnt base your intercooler selection purely on a wagner having a freak failure, which they honored and replaced. Many people have their intercoolers and have complete success with them. I have had an ER and a ETS intercooler and both have been great and very easy to install. The ER intercooler was much larger than the ETS and required a bit of trimming where the ETS required a bit of trimming. I noticed no performance difference between the two.
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04-26-2013, 01:16 PM	#13
tracer bullet Brigadier General 4330 Rep 4,666 Posts Drives: '25 Z4, '15 X3 35i (135i sold) Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	I think it depends on how much of a factor cost is for you. My gut feel, without any data, is that the Forge would be marginally better. But if it is in fact any better, it's certainly not on the same ratio as its additional cost (I expect that the value per dollar ratio would have to weight heavily in favor of the Wagner). I agree that Wagner appears to have handled their warranty very well and I for one wouldn't knock them a bit for the one failure described in another post here. That said I have a Forge on order with HPA because I prefer the connection type and mating up with the stock parts (I'm talking the 1M / N55 engine style only). I know that silicone couplers and t-bolt clamps are used all over the place and are fine, but I just have a preference for the way the Forge installs. It kind of feels to me like if the BMW engineers were able to make a better intercooler and not have to be concerned with cost, it is what they would have done. I could be way off on that but it was why i went w/ the Forge. If I had a 135i with an N54 I don't think Forge would have been in the running, I would have been deciding between Wagner, ETS and VSRF.
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04-26-2013, 04:46 PM	#14
yawn Lieutenant 64 Rep 559 Posts Drives: M2 Competition Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Home iTrader: (0)	I wasn't aware that forge could be installed without cutting? I know ets and ams can be done without cutting though.
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04-27-2013, 08:58 AM	#18
Schmoops135i New Member 5 Rep 101 Posts Drives: 2014 328i XDrive - Sport line Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Montreal iTrader: (0)	How does the Cobb unit stock up? I realize it might be pricey to consider if its unavailable directly from Cobb but surely there is a european website selling them?
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04-27-2013, 09:54 AM	#19
TheRuss Lieutenant 32 Rep 408 Posts Drives: BMW 135i Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: South West, UK iTrader: (0)	Not seen the Cobb over here, only the Forge and the Wagner. There's less than £100.00 (GBP) between the Forge and Wagner, and the Forge price includes fitting at Forge's HQ. The Wagner price is posted to my door for me to fit. As such, the price is kinda equal.
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04-28-2013, 08:52 AM	#20
Vtec Abuser First Lieutenant 36 Rep 367 Posts Drives: 2012 135i DCT Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Every-bloody-where.. iTrader: (0)	I have also opted for the Forge FMIC on my N55 and recently had the car on the rollers for a health check and to see if there was any gains at all over the oem cooler even though the software hasn't been touched (so just ECU adaptation). The RR was a Dyno Dynamics set up (which gives similar results to the Mustang Dynos in the US) and I have already had the car dynod there both when stock and with just the DMS software flash tune. Results showed an increase of 13-14bhp and 9lb/ft at the flywheel (10bhp ATW) which although isn't mind boggling, given the fact I wasn't really expecting any gains without the software being tweaked and that a uprated FMIC isn't generally seen as a power gaining mod as such, I was reasonably pleased tbh.. Not had any experience with the Wagner cooler, but people who have gone with their product seemed to be pleased from what I have seen. I don't think you'll be disappointed in either to be honest mate..
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