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      09-25-2013, 01:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Did you notice that the whole M3/M4 specs presentation is pretty low key about the 1M ? Yes, referencing to E46 M3 and E9X M3, but what about the 1M ?

Imagine for a moment an ///M car featuring a 6-cylinder, 3.0 litre displacement, at least 500 Nm, at least 369 lb-ft of torque, two turbos, flirting with 1500 kg weight, manual transmission, 50:50 weight distribution, air curtains and standard 19" wheels.

"Ah, exists already: those are the specs of the new M3/M4", you say ? You're right ...however, those are also the specs of the 1M (and not particularly those of an E46 M3 or of an E9X M3).

So the referencing to E46 M3 and E9X M3 is nice, but IMHO the M3/M4 - although a kind of its own - has closer family ties with the 1M. The 1M may have been a love child of the ///M Division, but nevertheless it's part of the ///M family.

The new M3/M4 will undoubtedly be a great car. Side-effect of its specs: the value of the 1M has further increased. The little brother ain't that little. The future (2013) proved that, back in 2010, the 1M was more than decently powered. Maybe BMW now considers that, from hindsight, the 1M should have been powered and designed a bit less spectacular. But BMW should never forget that the mere existence of the 1M unexpectedly sparked some sort of "Life Cycle Impulse" (LCI) for the ///M brand and reputation, providing some extra wings to fly again as it used to do in the past, refocusing towards what matters for the aficionados: more speedboat - less yacht.
Artemis, totally feeling your sentiments. I will go even further than that and claim that the new M4/M3's most real predecessor is the 1M before any other car. In my opinion, it is obvious.

So, I will repeat what I've posted many times before; 1M was - among other things - an experiment for BMW and for M division, a relatively lighter in-line six turbo M car, and it did work...and we disciples of the 1M, first guys who jumped over allocations and fought our ways through obstacles to have and keep one, were merely guinea pigs, to test it for BMW, and for other enthusiasts.

No, they won't talk much about this, and they will ignore this to-your-face part of the story, because that is not what actual and future M3 owners wish to hear to make a buying decision.

Instead, they will highlight the likes and similarities of the new car, if any, to the old M3 as well as some mighty competitors like the new 911. That's how it works, fair or not.

Yes, for connaisseurs, I also believe 1M will earn more and more respect and recognition after the new M3. It is indeed the 4.5th generation M3

Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-25-2013 at 02:15 PM..
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      09-25-2013, 02:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
It is indeed the 4.5th generation M3
Make that "The 1M is indeed the 4th generation M3". Connecting the third dot (E46 M3) with a fourth dot (1M).

With the E9X M3 BMW M ventured into another world: it went astray in the M3 world, or at least off course, heading closer towards the E60 M5 world.
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      09-25-2013, 05:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis
Did you notice that the whole M3/M4 specs presentation is pretty low key about the 1M ? Yes, referencing to E46 M3 and E9X M3, but what about the 1M ?

Imagine for a moment an ///M car featuring a 6-cylinder, 3.0 litre displacement, at least 500 Nm, at least 369 lb-ft of torque, two turbos, flirting with 1500 kg weight, manual transmission, 50:50 weight distribution, air curtains and standard 19" wheels.

"Ah, exists already: those are the specs of the new M3/M4", you say ? You're right ...however, those are also the specs of the 1M (and not particularly those of an E46 M3 or of an E9X M3).

So the referencing to E46 M3 and E9X M3 is nice, but IMHO the M3/M4 - although a kind of its own - has closer family ties with the 1M. The 1M may have been a love child of the ///M Division, but nevertheless it's part of the ///M family.

The new M3/M4 will undoubtedly be a great car. Side-effect of its specs: the value of the 1M has further increased. The little brother ain't that little. The future (2013) proved that, back in 2010, the 1M was more than decently powered. Maybe BMW now considers that, from hindsight, the 1M should have been powered and designed a bit less spectacular. But BMW should never forget that the mere existence of the 1M unexpectedly sparked some sort of "Life Cycle Impulse" (LCI) for the ///M brand and reputation, providing some extra wings to fly again as it used to do in the past, refocusing towards what matters for the aficionados: more speedboat - less yacht.
I have to agree
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      09-25-2013, 05:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Yourself and Ozi always provide insightful comments

Be interesting if the S55 is very tuneable like the N54.
I doubt it will be as highly tunable as the N54. The N54 was very detuned from the factory and the S55 seems a bit more toward the top.
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      09-25-2013, 06:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
+1. That won't be a dealbreaker. Electric steering is the one to keep an eye on.

if you haven't driven a new model with Electric steering.. it's come a long way. The X3 was mediocre... the F30 was good at times and bad at others.. On the other hand.. the X1 is actually rather impressive.



Since this is a system of servos and algorithms... it is only a matter of time for it to be perfected to the level of BMW M..... and that appears to be now. it should be even better when the M2 comes around

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Originally Posted by Stratus650 View Post
All sounds fine to me, electric steering is no big deal its just a new thing, no negative comment from the DTM drivers on that. My only hope is to offer the m4/m3 in a stripped form, i need zero gadgets
actually.. it wasnt just " no negative comment".. there were positiver refernces to EPS from Bruno spengler... it sounds as if he preferred electric steering. He was very effusive about how precise it is.

Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 09-25-2013 at 06:20 PM..
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      09-25-2013, 07:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Yourself and Ozi always provide insightful comments
Be interesting if the S55 is very tuneable like the N54.
Thanks. We're all forum fellows sharing a common passion for BMW cars. Sometimes walking the extra mile to get the facts sorted out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Electric steering is the one to keep an eye on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Electric steering [...] Since this is a system of servos and algorithms... it is only a matter of time for it to be perfected to the level of BMW M..... and that appears to be now.
Excerpt of http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...m4_first_ride/
"Speaking of cornering, you'll be ordering that up via electric power steering. But fear not, we're assured, the team has sweated the road-feel details like never before. Exhaustive testing of zillions of combinations of racks, ratios, electric motors and rack "transmissions." The end result is a unique rack using the 5 Series' transmission with a smaller electric motor that's quicker to rev. And to keep the steering feel pure, the EPS motor does one thing and one thing only: Helps you dial in exactly as much steering as you wish. It never assists with quotidian tasks like lane centering or returning the wheel to straight ahead after a turn. Nor will it ever counter-steer for you at the stability-control system's behest. And while the rack ratio is still variable, the wildly variable Active Steering will not be offered. The engineer tasked with tuning the new M3/4 steering set the E92 (fourth-gen) M3's hydraulic-assist rack as his personal benchmark. I look forward with guarded optimism to discovering how close he came."
Excerpt of http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ntended-page-2
The electric power steering that he so effortlessly wields might end up as the M division’s greatest triumph regarding these new models. Engineers and executives know the shift from hydraulic to electric assistance comes with enough stigma to fill an X6, and they claim to have taken great pains to ensure they got it right. The M3 and the M4 use bespoke hardware from supplier ZF that makes their steering systems closer to that of the 5-series than the 3-series, but whether it passes judgment ultimately comes down to the calibration. “We don’t use EPS [electronic power steering] to cover up deficiencies,” says Albert Biermann, head of development for M GmbH, meaning the power-steering motor won’t compensate for understeer, oversteer, a crown in the road, or a coarse road surface. In fact, the lines of code that BMW deleted might be as important as the code that was included. Even though virtually all electric steering systems use the motor to help unwind the steering wheel, BMW has omitted this function in the M3 and M4. The steering wheel will return to center by the natural self-centering forces of the suspension geometry, just as God intended.
So BMW has altered the recipe with the new M3 and M4, but we like the big torque, that the cars have lost weight, and that M engineers pledge the steering system will become the industry standard. We can’t render a complete opinion, however, until we wrap our hands around the steering-wheel rim and whack some cones for ourselves.
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      09-25-2013, 08:03 PM   #29
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Oops... yesterday an F80 M3 prototype crashed at the Nürburgring ("the driver lost control and crashed into the right guide rail"):
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=893673
(hinted by Dackelone)
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      09-25-2013, 08:27 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Did you notice that the whole M3/M4 specs presentation is pretty low key about the 1M ? Yes, referencing to E46 M3 and E9X M3, but what about the 1M ?

Imagine for a moment an ///M car featuring a 6-cylinder, 3.0 litre displacement, at least 500 Nm, at least 369 lb-ft of torque, two turbos, flirting with 1500 kg weight, manual transmission, 50:50 weight distribution, air curtains and standard 19" wheels.

"Ah, exists already: those are the specs of the new M3/M4", you say ? You're right ...however, those are also the specs of the 1M (and not particularly those of an E46 M3 or of an E9X M3).

So the referencing to E46 M3 and E9X M3 is nice, but IMHO the M3/M4 - although a kind of its own - has closer family ties with the 1M. The 1M may have been a love child of the ///M Division, but nevertheless it's part of the ///M family.

The new M3/M4 will undoubtedly be a great car. Side-effect of its specs: the value of the 1M has further increased. The little brother ain't that little. The future (2013) proved that, back in 2010, the 1M was more than decently powered. Maybe BMW now considers that, from hindsight, the 1M should have been powered and designed a bit less spectacular. But BMW should never forget that the mere existence of the 1M unexpectedly sparked some sort of "Life Cycle Impulse" (LCI) for the ///M brand and reputation, providing some extra wings to fly again as it used to do in the past, refocusing towards what matters for the aficionados: more speedboat - less yacht.
Spot on, the car screams lightweight 1M in a bigger chassis, the engine specs nearly match what the 1M is or is capable of being easily tuned to.
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      09-25-2013, 08:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
if you haven't driven a new model with Electric steering.. it's come a long way. The X3 was mediocre... the F30 was good at times and bad at others.. On the other hand.. the X1 is actually rather impressive.



Since this is a system of servos and algorithms... it is only a matter of time for it to be perfected to the level of BMW M..... and that appears to be now. it should be even better when the M2 comes around



actually.. it wasnt just " no negative comment".. there were positiver refernces to EPS from Bruno spengler... it sounds as if he preferred electric steering. He was very effusive about how precise it is.
That video seemed canned to me, can't say that with 100% certainty with how bad the camera angles were.
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      09-25-2013, 09:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Spot on, the car screams lightweight 1M in a bigger chassis, the engine specs nearly match what the 1M is or is capable of being easily tuned to.
Wanna know a weird story ? Recently some at 1er forum (Germany) claim
  • that back in early 2011 BMW (allegedly) launched press car 1Ms with almost 400 hp ("power output for which the 1M was actually built") (original software code E89X-11-03-502) instead of 340 hp ("to set the 1M more apart from the 306hp of the 135i/335i")
  • ...but later detuned those 1Ms with a software update. Reason: BMW wanted to limit wear 'n tear.
Some say they got the info confirmed by "reliable sources". They add that tuners used BMW's aggressive press car set-up software to unlock the 1M to 390-400 hp.

http://www.1erforum.de/bmw-1er-m-cou...uf-147657.html
"Offiziell kommuniziert "Reduzierung der Streuleistung" bei dieser Soft. Da alle nach oben streuen is doch klar was das heisst. Und wenn das nach Kupplungswechsel drauf soll, dann is doch klar dass sie untenrum Drehmoment wegnehmen um die Kupplung zu schonen damit das unterdimensionierte Bauteil erst nach Garantie- und Kulanzeit verreckt."
"exakt das richtige File [E89X-11-03-502], was so ganz nebenbei das "sanfte Presse-Setup" ist mit dem die erste Charge kurzfristig aufgrund eine internen Managemententscheidung (hatten Angst das mit dem 340PS Setup zuwenig Unterschied zum 306PS ist) ausgeliefert worden ist (also die ursprünglich Limitierten Anzahl). Das "scharfe Presse-Setup" (für Hochleitungvergleichstest) hat dann ziemlich genau 400PS wofür der Motor selbst eigentlich auch konstruiert und ausgelegt aber dann politisch elektronisch eingebremst wurde. Auch der Grund warum das 390PS Tuning so schnell da war, die haben entweder das Presse-Setup kopiert oder die künstlich Limits rausgenommen. Und ich hab das unabhängig aus 3 internen Quellen ausm FIZZ und Steyr, denen ich vertrauen kann und is mir Nachweis genug.
Und es glaub doch wohl keiner das BMW das offiziell kommuniziert, ansonsten solltest Du Mami oder Papi nochmal fragen wie das mit den Bienchen ist oder dem Stroch so ist. "


Frankly speaking, I'm scratching my head because both claims seem pretty hard to believe. Does anyone have info about this ?

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      09-25-2013, 09:56 PM   #33
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I remember @Dackelone mentioning this and there was a theory that came about later that it was a mistake. My guess was that it was merely due to a mistake in KW to HP conversion. That would have been an amazing tune from BMW.

Weren't the downpipes on the 1M redone to make them more free-flowing. I could see 400HP with a stock-like tune from that reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Wanna know a weird story ? Recently some at 1er forum (Germany) claim
  • that back in early 2011 BMW (allegedly) launched press car 1Ms with almost 400 hp ("power output for which the 1M was actually built") (original software code E89X-11-03-502) instead of 340 hp ("to set the 1M more apart from the 306hp of the 135i/335i")
  • ...but later detuned those 1Ms with a software update. Reason: BMW wanted to limit wear 'n tear.
Some say they got the info confirmed by "reliable sources". They add that tuners used BMW's aggressive press car set-up software to unlock the 1M to 390-400 hp.

http://www.1erforum.de/bmw-1er-m-cou...uf-147657.html
"Offiziell kommuniziert "Reduzierung der Streuleistung" bei dieser Soft. Da alle nach oben streuen is doch klar was das heisst. Und wenn das nach Kupplungswechsel drauf soll, dann is doch klar dass sie untenrum Drehmoment wegnehmen um die Kupplung zu schonen damit das unterdimensionierte Bauteil erst nach Garantie- und Kulanzeit verreckt."
"exakt das richtige File [E89X-11-03-502], was so ganz nebenbei das "sanfte Presse-Setup" ist mit dem die erste Charge kurzfristig aufgrund eine internen Managemententscheidung (hatten Angst das mit dem 340PS Setup zuwenig Unterschied zum 306PS ist) ausgeliefert worden ist (also die ursprünglich Limitierten Anzahl). Das "scharfe Presse-Setup" (für Hochleitungvergleichstest) hat dann ziemlich genau 400PS wofür der Motor selbst eigentlich auch konstruiert und ausgelegt aber dann politisch elektronisch eingebremst wurde. Auch der Grund warum das 390PS Tuning so schnell da war, die haben entweder das Presse-Setup kopiert oder die künstlich Limits rausgenommen. Und ich hab das unabhängig aus 3 internen Quellen ausm FIZZ und Steyr, denen ich vertrauen kann und is mir Nachweis genug.
Und es glaub doch wohl keiner das BMW das offiziell kommuniziert, ansonsten solltest Du Mami oder Papi nochmal fragen wie das mit den Bienchen ist oder dem Stroch so ist. "


Frankly speaking, I'm scratching my head because both claims seem pretty hard to believe. Does anyone have info about this ?

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      09-26-2013, 03:40 AM   #34
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Very interesting story Luc. I had not seen that, thanks. I think that is something that BMW would do. Just look how they rolled out their anti-tuner SW "update" and did not inform us 135i owners that they were detuning our cars.


Anyone remember this photo of mine? 332Kw or 451 HP Looks like this was real.
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      09-26-2013, 07:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
I wouldn't mind getting that 451HP flash

I can't see how BMW could get 330kW out of an N54. Even most Stage 3 aftermarket tunes with FBO can't get more that 300kW at the wheels Issues would be turbos and cooling
Ian, it is in line with available agressive tunes: the quoted numbers of BMW (330kw/451 HP) is crank number not at the wheels.
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      09-26-2013, 08:07 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I remember @Dackelone mentioning this and there was a theory that came about later that it was a mistake. My guess was that it was merely due to a mistake in KW to HP conversion. That would have been an amazing tune from BMW.
Weren't the downpipes on the 1M redone to make them more free-flowing. I could see 400HP with a stock-like tune from that reference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Very interesting story Luc. I had not seen that, thanks. I think that is something that BMW would do. Just look how they rolled out their anti-tuner SW "update" and did not inform us 135i owners that they were detuning our cars.
Anyone remember this photo of mine ? 332Kw or 451 HP Looks like this was real.
Ha, the plot is thickening !

That might indeed be a sensible explanation for the wild figure on the notorious 2010 screenshot and the speculation about a powerful phantom Pyrat (1M CSL ?).

So maybe it was no typo, but a reference to a real 1M (aggressive set-up for testing by car journalists). Compare the 2010 and 2013 screenshots: 11/03 (March 2013). The 2013 screenshot features a car built in March 2011, thus amongst the first that were built (apart from pre-production cars built late 2010). Car journalists started testing the 1M from May 2011 onwards. And maybe the car they got to drive was the one with unrestricted power (unlocked with a software package, alike software packages for delimiting the speed limiter). All 1Ms produced for consumers (not for press tests) got electronically detuned to 340 hp.

True or false/coincidence ?

Anyways, if this happens to be true (which remains speculation, of course), then:
  • ± 400 hp = aggressive Press set-up of the 1M for which the engine was actually designed and manufactured ("scharfe Presse-Setup wofür der Motor selbst eigentlich auch konstruiert und ausgelegt ")
  • 340 hp = 'politically correct' electronic limitation ("politisch elektronisch eingebremst") to just under the E46 M3 hp value (which was 343 hp) - hey, it should remain a 1er;
  • the detuned 1M has a significant power margin - far from the limit;
  • original 1M power = trespassing M3 territory;
  • BMW might have been worried about fast wear and tear of the aggressive press set-up - lots of power is merciless in straining mechanical engine parts + risk of younger demographic underestimating the power output and crashing 1Ms too easily;
  • car journalists did not drive 'doped' 1Ms, no they were offered to drive the ones with unrestricted power output. Porsche and Ferrari: eat this !
Now I also understand why a 1M forum fellow who works at a BMW dealership, and who put an aggressive tune on his 1M (± 400 hp), told that he did not mind voiding the warranty by fitting the tune "because the 1M engine is strong enough to handle the tune".

So the 1M is actually not underpowered: no it is electronically restricted (muzzled). But the full power can be unlocked with a software package. So, does anyone wants Santa Claus to bring software package E89X-11-03-502 ?
Ooh, don't we all like those wild conspiracy theories. If true, then it might have cracked the code of the notorious 2010 screenshot mystery ?

Okay Dackel, move posts #35 and following from this thread into a separate new thread called "Was the 1M detuned to 340 hp ?"

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      09-26-2013, 08:12 AM   #37
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Ha, the plot is thickening !

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The restricted dog photo is epic
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      09-26-2013, 08:47 AM   #38
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I'm so corn-fused. Is this TwinPower turboed car going to be twin turbo (two turbos) or twin scroll (single turbo)?

Really liking the specs. 430 something hp and 3300 something lbs will be a fantastic drivers car!

I'm thinking I could get into one of these in a few years. A 4 door, six speed without I-drive/nav and no sunroof would fit me nicely. First thing I'd do though is have someone program the auto rev match to be permanently off. I can rev match myself thanks very much!
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      09-26-2013, 09:12 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
I'm so corn-fused. Is this TwinPower turboed car going to be twin turbo (two turbos) or twin scroll (single turbo)?

Really liking the specs. 430 something hp and 3300 something lbs will be a fantastic drivers car!

I'm thinking I could get into one of these in a few years. A 4 door, six speed without I-drive/nav and no sunroof would fit me nicely. First thing I'd do though is have someone program the auto rev match to be permanently off. I can rev match myself thanks very much!
I highly doubt there will be an option for no I-drive. All F30's, even those without NAV, have a screen. I am alright with it, just the way it is these days. My 1M has nav/i-drive and I only use it for music. The nav is worthless with a phone in my pocket. I do LOVE bluetooth and more particularly be able to stream audio and control it through the i-drive with my phone.

I am excited about this car. Can't wait to see how it looks. Very excited about the added cooling to the turbo-charged engine. My ideal spec would be Aw/cloth (or a nice M alcantara) sedan with CF roof and bluetooth. Nothing else required. Hopefully that spec will be atainable at sub-60k prices.
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      09-26-2013, 09:30 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
I'm so corn-fused. Is this TwinPower turboed car going to be twin turbo (two turbos) or twin scroll (single turbo)?

Really liking the specs. 430 something hp and 3300 something lbs will be a fantastic drivers car!

I'm thinking I could get into one of these in a few years. A 4 door, six speed without I-drive/nav and no sunroof would fit me nicely. First thing I'd do though is have someone program the auto rev match to be permanently off. I can rev match myself thanks very much!
It's definitely Twin-turbo (as in a turbo on each cylinder bank like our 1Ms). It seems like they took the block from the N55 and added the two turbos in a similar configuration to the N54.

The trick of keeping turbos spooled up during deceleration is interesting. Wonder what that will do to reliability?
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      09-26-2013, 09:30 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by robertm View Post
I'm so corn-fused. Is this TwinPower turboed car going to be twin turbo (two turbos) or twin scroll (single turbo)?

Really liking the specs. 430 something hp and 3300 something lbs will be a fantastic drivers car!

I'm thinking I could get into one of these in a few years. A 4 door, six speed without I-drive/nav and no sunroof would fit me nicely. First thing I'd do though is have someone program the auto rev match to be permanently off. I can rev match myself thanks very much!
It is a bi-turbo (two turbos) like the N54...but it is derived from N55. It includes Valvetronic function unlike the N54.
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      09-26-2013, 09:32 AM   #42
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Yourself and Ozi always provide insightful comments

Be interesting if the S55 is very tuneable like the N54.
Seconded. Great thread.

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      09-26-2013, 09:33 AM   #43
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Great post, Oz!

Neil
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      09-26-2013, 09:39 AM   #44
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Great post, Oz!

Neil
Thanks Neil,

The similarities are striking between the 1M and new M3/M4 and differences are very interesting and some cases big as well (like the size of the car itself, BIG). So, I thought that we all could discuss everything relevant (to 1M) in our Forum without getting lost in the hundreds of posts pouring in as general threads on the front page.

They should put a sticker on the engine of the new car or on side sills, reading "Inspired by 1M"
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