vishnu

[DBFIU]

Originally Posted by ronnyek

I agree, and to be fair I dont really think any vendors were really bashing other vendors here... I dont think terry or shiv should be banned here or e90 or n54tech. Both have quality products, and really the people here that are perpetuating the argument are fanbois... "..I bought shiv, so I have to defend it to death and justify high price..." and "...Terry is cheaper and better and people that payed extra dough are idiots"

Best post in the thread.

[dyong]

Originally Posted by 350zpilot

Got an e-mail from Vishnu with a UPS tracking number. Looks like the product should be arriving sometime today.

I should be getting mine today also. Can't wait to put it in this weekend.

[guardianangel3290]

so this is what ive gathered so far

V3-
the good:
user adjustability
more maps
more frequent map releases
more low end torque when not at WOT (?)
increased gas milage
map change via wireless remote
the bad:
$950 price tag
there seems to be more user issues with V3 than JB3
no buy back
overall:
a more mature tune where going WOT is more of an option than a necesity


JB3-
the good:
2/5 the price of V3 (pin out version)
more of a "raw" feel
gas pedal map switching
ability to sell back and upgrade for a nominal fee
increased gas milage
the bad:
unknown timing changes (?)
fewer maps
no user adjustability (for now)
overall:
by far the best bang for the buck available for the N54 but maybe not the most polished tune available

what'd i miss?

[ktdw]

^^^ Man, we were just getting to the group hug, and now you try to point out the good / bad of each tune? :smile:

[infinitekidM2C]

lol...v3 add that you can change maps via radio controlled button

[guardianangel3290]

Originally Posted by ktdw

^^^ Man, we were just getting to the group hug, and now you try to point out the good / bad of each tune? :smile:

lol my bad man
im just trying to get the info in one place
its so scattered and deluded that it gets really confusing

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by guardianangel3290

so this is what ive gathered so far

V3-
the good:
user adjustability
more maps
more frequent map releases
more low end torque when not at WOT (?)
increased gas milage
map change via wireless remote
the bad:
1100 price tag
there seems to be more issues with V3 than JB3
no buy back
overall:
a more mature tune where going WOT is more of an option than a necesity


JB3-
the good:
2/5 the price of V3
more of a "raw" feel
gas pedal map switching
ability to sell back and upgrade for a nominal fee
increased gas milage
the bad:
unknown timing changes (?)
fewer maps
no user adjustability (for now)
overall:
by far the best bang for the buck available for the N54 but maybe not the most polished tune available

what'd i miss?

FYI, the price is $945 including PnP harness. A PnP JB3 is $630 which is 2/3rd the price not, 2/5ths. And I'm not sure that saying it has less issues than the JB3 is accurate. I'd venture to say it is the other way around. But without a proper, controlled poll, it's going to be a point of contention.

Also, there is/has not been a need for PROcede "buy back" because our hardware design allows for constant upgrades. The fact that our first platform (rev.1) lasted over 2 years and is STILL state of the art/fully featured should speak for itself. The Rev2 is more of a repackaging than an hardware upgrade (although there is a few extra i/o to take advantage over over the next year or two).

By comparison, during the last year or so, BMS has been through JB1, JB2, JB3 and is now working another another JB3 platform. As well as a SSTT like JB+. So a buy-back plan does seem reasonable with that perfectly viable business model.

Also, our map/firmware updates are free and available online. We don't charge $20 for replacement chips.

Just wanted to point that out. Not trying to start a flame ware

Cheers,
shiv

[Dangerlucas]

Guardianangel3290, thanks for the post. I've been debating between the two and I've listed out the pros and cons in my head many times, but it's nice to see them listed.

The one pro that pushes me towards the Proceed is the one you have a ? next to, so I'd love to get a definitive answer on this. It really doesn't seem appealing to me to have to WOT in order to make use of my tune, so if that's the case with the JB3 then I don't know if I really want to go down that route. Maybe Shiv can chime in on this one and comment about the Proceed only? If N54tech would like to comment about the JB3 that would be fine as well.

Then again the big reason I'd want to go with the JB3 is the fact that Terry seems to provide a level of support that is above that of Shiv. Now I could be totally wrong about that, but that's just the impression I get from reading here, e90, and n54. I've seen quite a few questions to Shiv go unanswered, but Terry seems to be all over the threads on n54 and from what I've read is very willing to help out a customer over the phone or email.

Then there are the childish antics of both of them that really make me want to go with Dinan, but the cost and the fact that it makes less power are a pretty big deterrent. The big plus of Dinan is of course the warranty, but I don't know how likely they would be to honor that given the other work I've done to my car.

It really is a hard decision to make, but as things stand right now it's not one I plan on making for at least a few months, so hopefully by then I'll get everything sorted out. Also it seems like the JB3 will be making up some ground on the Proceed as far as the feature set goes (user adjustability and remote map switching?)

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Dangerlucas

Guardianangel3290, thanks for the post. I've been debating between the two and I've listed out the pros and cons in my head many times, but it's nice to see them listed.

The one pro that pushes me towards the Proceed is the one you have a ? next to, so I'd love to get a definitive answer on this. It really doesn't seem appealing to me to have to WOT in order to make use of my tune, so if that's the case with the JB3 then I don't know if I really want to go down that route. Maybe Shiv can chime in on this one and comment about the Proceed only? If N54tech would like to comment about the JB3 that would be fine as well.

Then again the big reason I'd want to go with the JB3 is the fact that Terry seems to provide a level of support that is above that of Shiv. Now I could be totally wrong about that, but that's just the impression I get from reading here, e90, and n54. I've seen quite a few questions to Shiv go unanswered, but Terry seems to be all over the threads on n54 and from what I've read is very willing to help out a customer over the phone or email.

Then there are the childish antics of both of them that really make me want to go with Dinan, but the cost and the fact that it makes less power are a pretty big deterrent. The big plus of Dinan is of course the warranty, but I don't know how likely they would be to honor that given the other work I've done to my car.

It really is a hard decision to make, but as things stand right now it's not one I plan on making for at least a few months, so hopefully by then I'll get everything sorted out. Also it seems like the JB3 will be making up some ground on the Proceed as far as the feature set goes (user adjustability and remote map switching?)

Since you are in Norcal, my suggestion would be to go ahead and purchase a JB3. Drive it for a few days. Then give me a buzz and try out the PROcede. I'll be happy to install it for you. Keep the one you like more and return the other one. The end goal should be to use the one that provides the best driving experience. And no matter how much you read on the forum, there is no substitute for real-world comparisons. It would be a quick and painless way to get to the bottom of things.

That said, the on-the-road differences between the two are quite profound. You wont be struggling to feel the difference. It will be plain as day. Then you can decide for yourself and not be influenced by anyone else's opinion that may not be as well founded.

Cheers,
shiv

[Dangerlucas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Since you are in Norcal, my suggestion would be to go ahead and purchase a JB3. Drive it for a few days. Then give me a buzz and try out the PROcede. I'll be happy to install it for you. Keep the one you like more and return the other one. The end goal should be to use the one that provides the best driving experience. And no matter how much you read on the forum, there is no substitute for real-world comparisons. It would be a quick and painless way to get to the bottom of things.

That said, the on-the-road differences between the two are quite profound. You wont be struggling to feel the difference. It will be plain as day. Then you can decide for yourself and not be influenced by anyone else's opinion that may not be as well founded.

Cheers,
shiv

Wow, that is a great offer and when the time comes I'm sure that I will take you up on it. Composed comments like this are the exact type of thing that is going to change my current impression about you, so please keep it up.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Dangerlucas

Wow, that is a great offer and when the time comes I'm sure that I will take you up on it. Composed comments like this are the exact type of thing that is going to change my current impression about you, so please keep it up.

lol.. where did this other impression of me come from?

[Dangerlucas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol.. where did this other impression of me come from?

Oh, I think you know that you have done your fair share of bashing Terry and his product on e90post in particular. Now Terry has done his fair share as well and I'm getting a little sick of seeing that rolling smiley face in almost every comment of his that references you.

I do have a lot of respect for the work that both Terry and you have done, but I think you both could do a lot to improve the image that you present on these forums.

[guardianangel3290]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol.. where did this other impression of me come from?

Everyone and every forum seems to have their own opinion haha though, thus far, you seem to have been nothing but profesional.
While i have no problem with trying to advance the successfulness of ones own product, it seems that in the past you and Terry have looked to do so by slandoring each others names and tunes. As you told "dangerlucas", both tunes drive profoundly different and to drive a car equiped with each is the only true way to make the decision based off ones personal interests. The both of you are extremely skilled tuners and should be proud of the products you've produced and maybe you have each others competition to thank for that.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Dangerlucas

Oh, I think you know that you have done your fair share of bashing Terry and his product on e90post in particular. Now Terry has done his fair share as well and I'm getting a little sick of seeing that rolling smiley face in almost every comment of his that references you.

I do have a lot of respect for the work that both Terry and you have done, but I think you both could do a lot to improve the image that you present on these forums.

Well since we are on this subject, it's probably a good time to bring this up. It seems as if any comment that opposes the design intention/claim of a product is considered bashing. As someone who likes to talk tech and be very deliberate with his words, it is sometimes very difficult to me to make a point or state a fact without getting it misinterpreted as bashing. For instance, I've known for ages what the JB3 does and more importantly, doesn't do. But every time I've stated my findings, I immediately get gang raped by a group of certain people. Not a pleasant experience.

Of course, we have our supporters to and they don't always help when it comes to keeping things on-topic and balanced. But there is a pretty big difference between the behavior of the two camps. A quick visit to n54tech should prove that. Hopefully Terry has figured out that promoting that kind of behavior is not to his best interest. It just encourages the polarity/partisanship problem that plagues these forums. A few posts in this thread don't help either. At the end of the day, we are talking about making our luxury cars go faster. This really shouldn't ever incite the anger and animosity that we've been seeing. I honestly do try to keep things factual and technical. It's only recently that these facts are being proven and supported by others. But it was a long journey and I'm sorry if I contributed to the mess. Hopefully things are looking up for us, as a community, for the present and future.

Shiv

[Dangerlucas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Well since we are on this subject, it's probably a good time to bring this up. It seems as if any comment that opposes the design intention/claim of a product is considered bashing. As someone who likes to talk tech and be very deliberate with his words, it is sometimes very difficult to me to make a point or state a fact without getting it misinterpreted as bashing. For instance, I've known for ages what the JB3 does and more importantly, doesn't do. But every time I've stated my findings, I immediately get gang raped by a group of certain people. Not a pleasant experience.

Of course, we have our supporters to and they don't always help when it comes to keeping things on-topic and balanced. But there is a pretty big difference between the behavior of the two camps. A quick visit to n54tech should prove that. Hopefully Terry has figured out that promoting that kind of behavior is not to his best interest. It just encourages the polarity/partisanship problem that plagues these forums. A few posts in this thread don't help either. At the end of the day, we are talking about making our luxury cars go faster. This really shouldn't ever incite the anger and animosity that we've been seeing. I honestly do try to keep things factual and technical. It's only recently that these facts are being proven and supported by others. But it was a long journey and I'm sorry if I contributed to the mess. Hopefully things are looking up for us, as a community, for the present and future.

Shiv

Again, thank you for a very composed and professional post. I totally agree that these discussions shouldn't incite the anger that they do and I really hate to see thread after thread degrade into a 'tuner war'. It's sad because like you sad in the end all we are talking about is have fun making our cars go faster.

It really is unfortunate that your posts have been met with so much animosity, but as much as you like to talk about the technical aspects I don't think 'the people' are really going to let you do that . Your comments will most likely never be viewed as unbiased, so there are cases where they have done more harm than good or come off as bashing. Now I don't want to tell you to stop posting because I don't think that's the right answer, but just be mindful of what you are posting and who your audience is.

[adrean8j]

Good writing guys! Nice to see all of us being adults and playing nice. Back on topic...what the word on the PnP's? I was wondering with Rick might get his so I can get mine!

[rdsport323]

didn't terry get banned from this site for doing the very same thing shiv is doing here?

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

didn't terry get banned from this site for doing the very same thing shiv is doing here?

yep, and that's the sad part.

I don't care either way whether they let Terry back, or they ban Shiv too, or whatever, but what is good for the goose is good for the Gander. The fact that one roams free to throw his 0.02 in every other thread in here, on e90post, etc, etc, while the other is not, is well.......anyways.

[TunedM2C]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

didn't terry get banned from this site for doing the very same thing shiv is doing here?

Ironic isn't it?!

[balaroue]

I understand shivs point, and it's valid. I'm think it would be safe to assume Terry has the same...

When your customers post on public boards with "little" knowledge (comparatively speaking), and are either textually challenged or simply flat out wrong, it's hard to post in reply without coming off as bullish. That would include replies about how they differ... which can only be viewed as brash even if it's not. It must be hard for both of them to read these things with a grain of salt.

I'm glad they correct those of us with inaccurate points, no matter how it comes across... I'd rather be infomred about the issue or product.. or what the dif is between them.

I don't know why Terry was banned here, I don't own a tune, and I don't know enough about either product to have a valid opinion on either. I do like learning about them tho!

Cheers.

[adrean8j]

Sooo Mods? Why did Terry get banned? Is Shiv violating some rule I don't know about? It would seem to me that some weak-minded individual fan-boys are putting these tuners in unenviable situations with their posts. (Not calling ANYONE out here, so don't bash on me please). I personally like the fact that there are tuners on here and would love to see an ADULT discussion on the merits of their tunes without overtly bashing another tune. Comparing and contrasting feature sets, production quality, and things of the like IS the basis for selling a product and it is these things people like us look for when purchasing. So let them at it...just leave the name calling, juvenile tactics at the door....it takes practice to argue tactfully without stooping to insult...let the numbers speak.

[atr_hugo]

That's between Terry and the administrators and the admins aren't talking. ; -)