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      04-02-2019, 05:39 PM   #1
Vorsprung_CJB
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Help with brake issue?

Been having a recurring brake issue. There is a vibration in the steering wheel at certain speeds when braking. Seems to come and go in intensity over time, sometimes better or worse.

Background:
About 1.5 years ago new rotors (Zimmerman) and pads (Cool Carbon) were installed. Fast forward about a year and I noticed the first sign of vibration. Shop that did the install checked it and didn't find anything wrong. I also started to notice a squeal when backing up that I thought was parking brake related. Was also checked and adjusted but no real issue found.

Fast forward another few months and the issue was worse. Took it to a different shop out of necessity and they checked the brakes, only recommended replacing front rotors with OEM. Said they often see 1-piece rotors have an issue vs OEM and were insistent. Found no other apparent brake issues. This stopped the vibration at the time, but it only took a month before the issue has returned.

Additional info:
-Doesn't pull under any braking intensity or when not braking.
-No vibration when not braking, wheel/tire balance checked.
-Braking power seems normal.
-Wear/dust seems even L/R. Wheels are black so tough to tell.
-Neither side seems much hotter when parked, maybe passenger side? Has the oil cooler venting on that side of course.
-Driver side rotor has a very minor raised concentric scoring about 3/4 way towards the outside. Very slight.
-Tried re-bedding and it only makes it worse, not better.
-107k miles on the car.

Thanks for any advice you may have!
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      04-05-2019, 07:53 AM   #2
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Could this be an issue with sticky caliper?

Could the pads not be retracting properly if they don't slide well? I inspected the brakes again and it looked like the guide pins were extremely gunked up. They must not have been replaced when the brakes were done, and maybe the wrong lube was used (think you aren't supposed to even use any?) and attracted a lot of dirt.

I was thinking of trying to clean them in-place. Or is it possible I can remove and clean the guide pins while leaving the caliper and pads in place (assuming I do 1 at a time)?

Thanks
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      04-05-2019, 08:50 AM   #3
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This just sounds like classic brake shimmy to me. Mine does it like crazy until I do a brake pad "bed in" procedure. Maybe you didn't get your brakes hot enough when you tried to bed them the last time. Some pads are definitely prone to leaving more deposits on the rotor than others. The stock BMW pads are horrible in my opinion. On my last car, I never had this kind of trouble with Hawk HPS.
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      04-05-2019, 01:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderguts View Post
This just sounds like classic brake shimmy to me. Mine does it like crazy until I do a brake pad "bed in" procedure. Maybe you didn't get your brakes hot enough when you tried to bed them the last time. Some pads are definitely prone to leaving more deposits on the rotor than others. The stock BMW pads are horrible in my opinion. On my last car, I never had this kind of trouble with Hawk HPS.
I did pretty aggressive re-bedding with the first set of new rotors since I figured I had nothing to lose. Didn't make a difference, actually felt worse. With the second set new set I just did normal drive (CC doesn't recommend bed for street use). Was fine for about 1-2k before it slowly returned. Did try a mild bedding as a test but didn't change.

Had over 60k+ on the first set of CC pads never had any issues.

Sprayed the hell out of the calipers last time I washed the car, seemed to help for a few days at least.
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      04-06-2019, 04:18 AM   #5
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Photos of the brakes/discs? Perhaps you do have pad imprints on the discs - which is a common cause of "warped rotor" sensations
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      04-06-2019, 08:23 AM   #6
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I'll try to get some pics if it clears up today, but I did inspect them including to run my fingers over and nothing obvious stood out as far as pad imprints. Obviously I can't see the inside side of the rotor but I didn't feel anything unusual with what I could reach. There is some slight superficial scoring but not any different than what I would consider typical, and I couldn't feel those with my finger/fingernail*.

*As mentioned above, the driver side did have a very slight RAISED score, not a groove, you can't see it visually but I could slightly feel it. Not a lip, it was maybe 80% of the way towards the outside of the disc.

Thanks
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      04-06-2019, 04:23 PM   #7
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Update, for S&Gs I cleaned the pins in-place with some cleaner and a toothbrush. Seemed to get rid of the gunk. Took the car out on some errands, tried to brake hard a few times. Seemed like it started to improve but probably just an illusion, but maybe not.

When I got back to my neighborhood where there are high curbs, I was hearing a cyclical squealing that went away with brake application. Seemed louder when turning as well. Didn't notice it when I first left. Couldn't tell which wheel it was coming from.

Snapped a quick pic of each, not great quality but maybe helps in an expert's eyes. Pardon the wheel rash.
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      04-11-2019, 06:22 AM   #8
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Are they actually one piece rotors or two piece? Last time i bought DBA rotors they were one piece.

It could be a material incompatibility issue? Rare but it can happen. You can try either a set of pads or another pair of discs from a different brand. Pads might be easier if you can find a mate who has a good set lying around.

Multi-piston opposed calipers can get sticky pistons easily. I had it happen to my 135i fronts. You can check for this by pushing back all the pistons on one caliper (mind the rising fluid level), setting up a camera or assistant to press the brake pedal using short strokes and observing. By design, the pistons may not come out evenly/in tandem as they rely on the other piston/s pushing against something so the fluid can then fill the next cylinder. I would imagine that the hydraulic force would overcome any stiction but in normal use, the pistons don't move that much so it can happen. Old fluid or corrosion/surface imperfections can cause the pistons to not operate smoothly also. You won't know unless you overhaul the calipers.

You can exercise the pistons by using a pieces of wood no thinner than 8mm (approximately the thickness of the backing plate +3mm, simulating a worn pad) and wide enough to cover the largest piston.

Remove one pad and tape the pad simulator on the rotor where the target piston will hit. Insert thicker pieces of wood where the remaining two pistons will hit, eg 10mm.

Press the brake pedal gently several times, no further than the height of the gas pedal. Remove wood and push back the pistons using a plastic trim tool or something similar. Repeat 3-5x per piston.
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      04-11-2019, 06:52 AM   #9
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It may also be worth checking runout and the mating surfaces between the hub and the rotor hat to ensure they are flat. eg. No lumps of rust?

Are the pads showing any taper wear?

Tyre sizes and pressures as per the placard?

Wheels not buckled? Lug bolts torqued down to 120Nm and in a star pattern?

Control arm bushes not blown/worn?
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      04-11-2019, 06:11 PM   #10
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When the other shop put on the second set of rotors they said the first shop didn't properly clean the hubs. I think it was BS because the second pair went bad much faster than the first, after they supposedly cleaned it up. It is possible it is not sitting right still for some reason, and that may be the root cause. Unfortunately I don't have the work space or tools to properly test for run-out, let alone test the pistons as you describe.

Control arm bushings and thrust are probably close to shot across the board, but nothing clunks or bangs. I could see that causing some vibration in certain cases, but would it result in the uneven wear markings and high spots?

As far as the pads, I used the Carbons with stock rotors for years. And the rears are fine with the Zimmermans, even though the fronts had an issue. Maybe this set of pads is bad or wore in wrong?

I'll probably take it back to shop 2 next week, but they are giving me a run-around. Hopefully they decide to guarantee their work.

Thanks for the ideas.
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      04-13-2019, 03:41 PM   #11
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Update if anyone cares.

Had to fix a minor puncture so I went to my local Tires Etc which I am friendly with. They offered to check the brakes on the cheap while I was there. Figured they might be more down to earth some of these BMW shops.

Well all he came back with was 'warped/bad rotors'. Thought they got overheated and had hot spots. There was no run-out (though I wonder if they actually checked). He said calipers were fine, retracted fine, and swore they were not dragging. Well brakes don't get hot without friction, so that isn't very helpful.

So back to square one.
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      04-13-2019, 08:46 PM   #12
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Take the shims off the pads, grease the shot out of them, and see if they still do this.
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      04-23-2019, 11:08 AM   #13
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Another thing to check is the front end. With the wheels off the ground, car on stands or a lift, grab a wheel and try to move it back and forth. If there is play, there is a wheel bearing or a tie rod end issue. Wheel bearings might be able to be adjusted to eliminate the play. You might need to try a new car with no issue and then compare with yours to see if it feels right. A good repair shop can check this very quickly.
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      05-08-2019, 07:28 AM   #14
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Quick update, recently had service done which included brake fluid. They found the bleeders/grommets were bad due to age and were leaking when they tried to bleed the brakes. Were replaced at no cost. Seems like since then the vibration has slowly been going away as the brakes wear/bed more. Is it possible there was air slowly getting into the calipers causing some kind of uneven or inconsistent pressure? There was no previous sign of fluid leaking but it may have been so little/slow it wasn't noticeable.
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      05-11-2019, 03:50 PM   #15
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I take back everything I just said. Brakes seemed to have improved so I took the car out on some back roads and after a few hot stages I got very severe vibration again, and severe squealing. There was also a chirp/squeal that was cyclical at higher speeds, which came and went with slight brake application, or with turning the steering wheel very slightly. Went away by the time I got home. FL rotor was pretty scored by the time I looked at the brakes later.

At this point every single place I've had look at it has come up with absolutely nothing, zero. I think I'll just have to take it to the dealer and prepare to part with a lot of my money. Very frustrating.
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      05-26-2019, 06:21 AM   #16
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Wheel bearing(s)?

They are non adjustable and normally on late model BMWs make a rumbling or howling noise before a higher pitched noise like a squeal. Heat does also make the noise more apparent. The most common mode of failure on these cars is lubricant failure or impact damage. Both result in surface damage to the races.

Have you noticed any inconsistency in your brake pedal travel? If the bearing is loose then the disc would shimmy with the wheel, pushing the pistons back on opposing calipers such as these
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      05-26-2019, 09:43 AM   #17
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I've definitely considered bearings and/or hubs. I asked each place to examine them when checking the brakes, and all said they were fine. Doesn't mean they aren't wrong though, as obviously no one solved the problem either. I haven't really noticed any other typical bearing specific symptoms though. Only thing is the vibration is worse when braking downhill.

I have some extra time this weekend and may try to at least get it jacked up and the front wheels off and check for play or anything obvious. I don't want to mess with the brakes myself though.
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      05-27-2019, 07:34 AM   #18
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Are your brake cooling ducts present?
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      05-27-2019, 09:01 AM   #19
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Yes and the brakes typically are not getting that hot. If I touch the lugs after I park the car it is only slightly warm.
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      08-29-2019, 10:49 PM   #20
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Ever figure out what the issue is? I'm having similar issues and have replaced both pads and rotors. It went a way for a bit but came back. I'm starting to think it's an issue with the calipers not applying even pressure causing uneven pad wear.
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      01-12-2020, 12:00 AM   #21
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For your reading pleasure My money is on the pads.

https://mintex.com/wp-content/upload..._A4_ENG-UK.pdf
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      01-12-2020, 09:38 AM   #22
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One more thing to consider: If the pedal itself is not pulsing strongly and you feel it in the steering wheel, it is likely control arm bushings. I had severe steering wheel shimmy and it was the front wishbone arms (the funny curved ones). I replaced with TRW M3 bits and it's fixed.

I now have a brake pedal vibration, but that's more a function of cheap rotors and not doing bed-in properly I think than anything.
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